WHICH Barn Door?

[ANAZAZI]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

 

[Brandonm22]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

The problem with smallish cows is not so much the steers; but rather the heifers. A thousand pound cow has steers calves that finish out at 1000 pounds and dresses out at an acceptable 630 lb carcass. Her heifer calves are going too finish 100 - 150 lbs lighter and typically have a lot of waste fat. Most heifers become feeder calves NOT replacements.

 

[RD-Sam]

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?

That makes a whole lot more sense than some stuff posted in this thread.

 

[Willow Springs]

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

If you start frame scoring, weighing and body condition scoring you will find that the only way to decrease cow weight (and keep body mass) is by decreasing frame score. A couple years ago we did it and found that cows of a specific frame size, adjusted to a specific BCS were all very similar for body weight. My 5-6 frame Angus cows were 1450-1550 lbs with a BCS of 5.5 (3 Canada). That is bigger than where I want to be. My smallest was 4.5 and she was about 1350. I realized that to get the elusive 1200 lb cow that I needed a 3-4 frame cow if I wanted her to be a good thick made cow.

No one (I think) is arguing that bigger cows eat more than smaller ones - with smaller cattle, you can pasture more head than larger. But, what is too big & what is too small depends on the area and management of the herd. Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.

What is too big or too small depends on how much you want to change the environment for your cattle. I often read about small framed feeders being discounted on this site; is this based on actual truth or coffee shop talk or just pure BS? How do you tell a small framed feeder from an animal that is simply a month or two younger? The simple truth is as you have put it; you can feed more smaller cows, rasing more pounds of calf, worth more per pound on the same acreage than you can larger cows. It doesn't matter what the environment is, this doesn't change. What does change is whether you can get away with raising larger cows or not; in our area (and yours by the sound of it) we can becasue of more yield and nutrition in our grass; doesn't mean it is the right thing to do; we should just run even more small cows.

Bottom line, it doesn't make any difference what size your cows are, IF you are making a NET profit. My steers net me AT LEAST $200 over the cow costs each year (fertilizer, feed (hay for cows & grain for weaned calves), meds, vet, labor paid, fencing, breeding, etc). I'll be satisfied with that kind of NET profit - from my STEERS.

Well I guess that you should be in the feeding business then because they are claiming they have been losing $100-200 per head.

 

[Brandonm22]

What is too big or too small depends on how much you want to change the environment for your cattle. I often read about small framed feeders being discounted on this site; is this based on actual truth or coffee shop talk or just pure BS? How do you tell a small framed feeder from an animal that is simply a month or two younger?

It IS true that light weight carcasses (below 600 or below 550 lbs) do take a severe discout on most packer grids. The cuts are too small to fit in the boxes that the packers like too sell. The same is true of too big carcasses (over 1000 lb carcasses).

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60804&p=711471#p711471

You are correct that most SMALL (frame score 2 or less) feeders probably get lost in the sea of 350-450 lb calves at most stockyards and the feeder or the stocker has to absorb the loss. IF you let that little calf hang around on the farm too long, he will start showing his age and the order buyers (usually smarter than we give them credit for) will dock the heck out of them.

 

[Avalon]

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?

That makes a whole lot more sense than some stuff posted in this thread.

I'm in agreement with you guys.

 

[Willow Springs]

It IS true that light weight carcasses (below 600 or below 550 lbs) do take a severe discout on most packer grids. The cuts are too small to fit in the boxes that the packers like too sell. The same is true of too big carcasses (over 1000 lb carcasses).

That's exactly right. I guess my point was more on the statement that small framed calves get docked; they are more likely to be docked as they get older and their age is more apparent, but as calves dockage is probably not going to happen.

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?

This is the system that a commercial cattleman should be using. Breed moderate females and use terminal sires and hybrid vigour to get the growth. It does present some challenges in managing breeding systems when also trying to keep replacements, but is doable. As has been written in this thread; you also don't need 1500+ lb cows to get the right size of carcass for the packer. Most herds in NA could stand a lot of down sizing before they even came close to raising cattle that wouldn't hang a 550 lb carcass.

 

[Brandonm22]

That's exactly right. I guess my point was more on the statement that small framed calves get docked; they are more likely to be docked as they get older and their age is more apparent, but as calves dockage is probably not going to happen.

~True, but for the feedlot too make money their price has too account for the calf that dies, the calf that gets sick and doesn't grow out, the calf who never grades, the calf who grows out good but converts at 10:1, the calf who bloats and has to be culled, the calf who puts on too much fat, and the calf that won't fit in packer specs. Sure if you wean at six months a lot of order buyers won't recognize that frame 1 calf; but the feedlot that placed that order for 400 lb calves knows that too and they are going too make everybody pay a small dock to make up for all the surprises they know they are going too find in that potbelly load of calves. I FAVOR moderate framed cows and most of the nation's ranches would make more money (or at least lose less) with smaller cows. All I am saying is too beware the extremes.

 

[Willow Springs]

All I am saying is too beware the extremes.

I agree; unless you have your own marketing plan you have to fit the "box"

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There can be a lot of differences between cow/calf seedstock operators & cow/c commercial & cow/c terminal operators.
I breed every cow hoping for a HEIFER. Males are a side-line market for us. Fortunately, the modern females we strive for in our breed/herd have male siblings that perform awesome on the feedlot.
Everyone needs to fine-tune their own operation to fit their management & environment to make the most profit.
And, extremes are always just a temporary profit - they should be avoided.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Also, I think you would be surprised how well buyers pick out small frame cattle vs young cattle of the same weight. They don't want to be stuck with the light weight carcasses at the end.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Here is one LAST effort to be filed in the "Common Sense" drawer of Beef Cattle Production. Quote from Kit Pharo:

" For most ranchers, the optimum cow is the most profitable cow – the cow that can do the most for the least. When we consider cow efficiency, a smaller cow will always have an advantage over a bigger cow. Smaller cows can do more for less. This is a no-brainer – but it goes against what all of the so-called experts in the status-quo beef industry have been saying for the past 40 years."

I don't genuflect at the knee of Kit all of the time, but in this instance he is right on!


DOC HARRIS

 

[BRG]

Here is one LAST effort to be filed in the "Common Sense" drawer of Beef Cattle Production. Quote from Kit Pharo:

" For most ranchers, the optimum cow is the most profitable cow – the cow that can do the most for the least. When we consider cow efficiency, a smaller cow will always have an advantage over a bigger cow. Smaller cows can do more for less. This is a no-brainer – but it goes against what all of the so-called experts in the status-quo beef industry have been saying for the past 40 years."

I don't genuflect at the knee of Kit all of the time, but in this instance he is right on!


DOC HARRIS

He is right on, except, when you have 1000 lbs cows, you WILL get docked at the barn, it is proven as much or more than the small cow efficiency theory has been proven. When you talk cow efficiency, you need to look at net $ per acre, not just pounds per acre.

 

[Avalon]

Some may think I'm full a you know what but. Its all about what the market will accept and pay for. Cows are like cars. In my part of the country people dont want to buy small cattle or small cars. Everybody here wants the midsize. This is like any other business. We raise what sells. We stay in business when we make a profit. Therefore if small cattle were the only way to make a living then every one will be doing it in a few years. We stay in business when we offer a product that OTHERS want to buy.

 

[RD-Sam]

Here is one LAST effort to be filed in the "Common Sense" drawer of Beef Cattle Production. Quote from Kit Pharo:

" For most ranchers, the optimum cow is the most profitable cow – the cow that can do the most for the least. When we consider cow efficiency, a smaller cow will always have an advantage over a bigger cow. Smaller cows can do more for less. This is a no-brainer – but it goes against what all of the so-called experts in the status-quo beef industry have been saying for the past 40 years."

I don't genuflect at the knee of Kit all of the time, but in this instance he is right on!


DOC HARRIS

According to this statement, Kit is right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm having a hard time believing that the whole cattle industry is wrong and one man is right. :roll:

 

[Txwalt]

I think people just want to raise their own replacements more often than not. Not as many people run a terminal operation. I think it boils down to what people want to do. People want to increase pounds yet keep replacements. How many people are running F1 cows with a terminal cross bull vs. straight bred? I think we can all agree that we see a lot more of the later. Yet we know that the 3 way cross will consistently produce more pounds of beef. Someones going to argue that we need straight bred cows to produce f1's and thats a given. However I think the disparity between the two is probably pretty wide.

Walt

 

[Willow Springs]

According to this statement, Kit is right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm having a hard time believing that the whole cattle industry is wrong and one man is right.

There were a whole lot of cattleman that thought the way Kit does before he came along, he didn't just pick this out of the air, and there are even more that think the way he does now. Kit is probably the most vocal, but that doesn't mean he is alone.

The problem is this; most cattleman don't have experience on both sides of the arguement. Most of you are arguing from the larger cow size without ever trying the other side, or opening your minds to the logic of it. Some who are old enough always reference the belt buckle cattle; but those cattle had frame scores of less than 1 or didn't even register on the chart. That is a far cry from the 2-4 frame that Kit and many others would raise. To take it one step further, if you read what Kit says in his writings, he doesn't breed his frame 2 bull to his frame 2 cow. He knows that these extremely small cattle don't fit the industry box, and readily states it. I wrote earlier in this thread ( I think) about our experience with frame score and body weight, and the truth of it is that if you want a 1200-1300 lb cow that you can stand to look at she will have to be 3-4 frame.

The other problem is that most cattleman won't admit they have 1400-1500 lb cows (or thin 1400-1500 lb cows that weigh 1200-1300). They have brain washed themselves into thinking their cows are 1300 lbs. How are we raising 1300 lb cows when most of the bulls in the stud and bull sales are from 1500+ lb cows and have a frame score 0f 5-6?? That really goes against logic.

 

[BRG]

The experience we have is in raising the cattle with a decent frame to them and then also buying feeder calves from our customers for feeders. The feeders we buy for consistantly ask if they are big enough, have enough muscle, and bone. They flat out don't want calves that do not have enough frame. This is coming from several feedlots that range in size of 250 head up to 40,000 head. So it pretty much covers the feeding industry. Now, if they are yearlings that are coming off of grass, it is a different story, they can handle them if they are a little smaller framed since they have already grew out.

All I am saying is, the cattle can get to small for the buyers and we need to pay attention to them as they are our customers, just like we don't need them to get to big, as the packers are docked for heavy carcasses and the ranchers can't afford to feed them. I don't think anyone here thinks we want to big of cows, at least I don't, but I have seen cows that are to small and to frail made that the buyers just don't want them. It works both ways.

 

[dun]

I have a neighbor that bought one of kits bulls. They make dandy calves but he admits he takes a beating when he sells calves. The ones from that bull get sorted out and are sold separate because of size. In the long run those calves may make more money because they finish sooner, but the guy making the profit isn;t the one that owns the bull.

 

[ANAZAZI]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

The problem with smallish cows is not so much the steers; but rather the heifers. A thousand pound cow has steers calves that finish out at 1000 pounds and dresses out at an acceptable 630 lb carcass. Her heifer calves are going too finish 100 - 150 lbs lighter and typically have a lot of waste fat. Most heifers become feeder calves NOT replacements.

Yes; a cow that is a little bigger than 1000 pounds will also produce a heifer of adequate size. Will 1100 pounds do ( it would give heifers 10 % higher carcass weight)? Surely 1200 pounds is enough, as it makes her daughters 20% larger