WHICH Barn Door?

[DOC HARRIS]

Through which barn door did we throw common sense??

In discussions and conversations lately, I have been interested in observing:
1- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "smaller cows".
2- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "bigger is NOT better."
3- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "smaller seedstock results in larger profit".
4- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "etc., etc., etc."

BUT - almost invariably, when push comes to shove and the final decision comes to buy a bull – (or a cow) – the nod goes to the larger animal. WHY? We all have been told that it costs more to feed, manage, and propagate a larger beef animal (our LIVELIHOOD) and, therefore, our PROFITS are less. In the final analysis – to make the choice between a 1000# cow, or a 1400-1500# cow becomes a mental battle, and usually purchasing or keeping the larger animal makes the rancher a looser in the long run.

Here are a few reasons (excuses) why I believe ranchers persist in "going against the grain" of common sense-
1- Hanging on to old habits.
2- Lack of faith in so-called "newer methods".
3- No self-confidence
4- "My Daddy always said, "Yada – Yada – Yada!!"
5- Afraid of going back to the 'pony' type of the 40's – 60's.
6- "Smaller Frame Scores" are dirty words!
7- Ranchers can't see "Profit" because "cost factors" are obscuring their line of vision.
8- Don't "BELIEVE" in EPD's!
9- "Don't confuse me with the facts!"

In My Opinion – it is 'way past time for "Reason to be The Greater Part of Valor"!

Does anyone 'disagree' with this hypothesis? Are you ready to bring "COMMON SENSE" back through the barn door?

DOC HARRIS

 

[fargus]

Can't disagree with ya. Too many guys around here like bragging about weaning the heaviest calves. Let 'em. I'll keep quiet and be happy making more margin per head on my lighter calves out of smaller, easier keeping cows every time. :cowboy:

 

[Frankie]

Through which barn door did we throw common sense??

In discussions and conversations lately, I have been interested in observing:
1- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "smaller cows".
2- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "bigger is NOT better."
3- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "smaller seedstock results in larger profit".
4- Ranchers 'agreeing' with the concept of "etc., etc., etc."

BUT - almost invariably, when push comes to shove and the final decision comes to buy a bull – (or a cow) – the nod goes to the larger animal. WHY? We all have been told that it costs more to feed, manage, and propagate a larger beef animal (our LIVELIHOOD) and, therefore, our PROFITS are less. In the final analysis – to make the choice between a 1000# cow, or a 1400-1500# cow becomes a mental battle, and usually purchasing or keeping the larger animal makes the rancher a looser in the long run.

Here are a few reasons (excuses) why I believe ranchers persist in "going against the grain" of common sense-
1- Hanging on to old habits.
2- Lack of faith in so-called "newer methods".
3- No self-confidence
4- "My Daddy always said, "Yada – Yada – Yada!!"
5- Afraid of going back to the 'pony' type of the 40's – 60's.
6- "Smaller Frame Scores" are dirty words!
7- Ranchers can't see "Profit" because "cost factors" are obscuring their line of vision.
8- Don't "BELIEVE" in EPD's!

In My Opinion – it is 'way past time for "Reason to be The Greater Part of Valor"!

Does anyone 'disagree' with this hypothesis? Are you ready to bring "COMMON SENSE" back through the barn door?

DOC HARRIS

Why do you insist that YOUR concept is common sense? And those of us who dare to disagree are idiots or cowards or scardy cats? I find that attitude insulting. :shock:

I'll point out that you've always had "Ranchers 'agreeing'" with..... (various concepts). But as long as the average calf goes through 3-4-5 owners before he's slaughtered, ranchers also need to be careful about downsizing too much. The breeder, the backgrounder, the wheat farmer, the feedlot all expect to make a buck on those calves. Local order buyers tell us that all those guys are looking for calves with some frame so they can add their pounds and sell him to the next guy to add his pounds. Fast finishing, small framed calves just don't work as well in that program. We've had one poster on these boards recently say he took a serious dock on his smaller frame calves at the sale barn.

 

[BRG]

To large is one thing and I agree their are to many elephant type cows out their, but on the other hand, in my opinion, to small doesn't work either. You still have to be able to market your calves, and the feeders are not paying up for the smaller framed finer made cattle. The majority of the ranchers sell the calf off the cow, and they need to make the cattle work for both himself and the feeder. Why do you think the successfull, good reputaion ranchers have a demand for both their steers and their replacement heifers?

Per hunder weight, the 550 lbs calves are at or just a couple bucks back from 650 lbs cavles. Watched a bunch of 450 lbs steer calves sell and they were only about $8/cwt more than the 650 lbs calves. That is $170 per calf less. Then I watched a bunch of lighter heifers, and they gave them away, they were around that $85/cwt. The April fat market is $3.50/cwt better on the board than the June and August months.

 

[fargus]

As strictly a cow-calf operator why should I care? I am making a business decision. Now, if the next guy up the value chain is a good business manager he'll say: "Why should I just background these calves? They're genetically capable of going right on to feed and being marketed at 14-16 months of age, eliminating several middlemen. That leaves more in my pocket."

That's his right as a business manager. I agree with Doc, and I think there is too much pride in having the heaviest calves on sale day. I don't make money feeding 1500 lb cows. Either the rest of the industry needs to pay us more for bigger cattle, or we downsize our cows to reduce expenses and make a living at this business.

 

[Frankie]

As strictly a cow-calf operator why should I care? I am making a business decision. Now, if the next guy up the value chain is a good business manager he'll say: "Why should I just background these calves? They're genetically capable of going right on to feed and being marketed at 14-16 months of age, eliminating several middlemen. That leaves more in my pocket."

That's his right as a business manager. I agree with Doc, and I think there is too much pride in having the heaviest calves on sale day. I don't make money feeding 1500 lb cows. Either the rest of the industry needs to pay us more for bigger cattle, or we downsize our cows to reduce expenses and make a living at this business.

You may be "strictly a cow-calf operator" but you're going to sell the calves to somebody. The industry isn't going to worry about whether you make a buck or not. But they may pay you less for calves that won't work in the established beef supply chain. So even if you're feeding small cows, you're getting less money for the small calves.

 

[fargus]

The established beef chain is wasteful. If auction won't pay you for a smaller framed calf find someone who will. Market your cattle instead of being a price taker.

Around here there are a lot of folks selling their cows and going out of business. The feedlots and backgrounders are squirming because they're worried about how they're gonna get replacements in the spring. If I don't make a buck, they don't have calves to buy. If they don't make a buck I got nobody to sell to. If you're that worried, create a small cow herd and use a larger framed terminal cross sire (continental breed) to add some frame and growth to the part of your calf crop your marketing. That has been a pretty successful strategy for us.

 

[HerefordSire]

BUT - almost invariably, when push comes to shove and the final decision comes to buy a bull – (or a cow) – the nod goes to the larger animal. WHY? We all have been told that it costs more to feed, manage, and propagate a larger beef animal (our LIVELIHOOD) and, therefore, our PROFITS are less. In the final analysis – to make the choice between a 1000# cow, or a 1400-1500# cow becomes a mental battle, and usually purchasing or keeping the larger animal makes the rancher a looser in the long run.

I going to tell you why one more time Doc. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

The reason is because it is possible for a larger animal to be more efficient than a smaller animal. Even if this wasn't true, not enough ranchers know for sure how efficient their animals are, mainly due to the cost of technology to prove it.

Why can't you understand this simple concept?

 

[stockman12]

Pounds of beef is the answer----the check

OOps we forgot to calculate the costs against that big calf :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

 

[RD-Sam]

Because calves from larger framed cows are generally larger and weigh more. They want the larger bulls because they sire larger calves. You are selling by the pound, more pounds equals more profit, to a certain point. Larger framed animals general have a higher percentage of hanging weight. 5 to 6 frame on the cows, 6 to 7 frame on the bulls, that is what alot of buyers are looking for. Dinks don't cut it when you are selling by the pound.

Is that enough reasons for you Doc?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Because calves from larger framed cows are generally larger and weigh more. They want the larger bulls because they sire larger calves. You are selling by the pound, more pounds equals more profit, to a certain point. Larger framed animals general have a higher percentage of hanging weight. 5 to 6 frame on the cows, 6 to 7 frame on the bulls, that is what alot of buyers are looking for. Dinks don't cut it when you are selling by the pound.

Is that enough reasons for you Doc?

Red Dog Sam-

This is just exactly the kind of uninformed, incorrect, illogical, and barn blind answer I expected from you! As I have repeatedly attempted to assist you in really LEARNING the FACTS of the BEEF BUSINESS in the past - almost two years now - I have to finally come to the conclusion that you have not, and probably WILL not understand the specifics of making a PROFIT in the beef business.

Too closed-minded I guess.

I won't argue with ANY of you who disagree with me. It is your opportunity to be narrow-minded and not know the difference between what is small and TOO small, or BIG and TOO BIG!

YOUR choice.

DOC HARRIS

 

[cross_7]

ok you can raise more pounds of beef on the same amount of acerage with smaller framed cows
therefore you should net more dollars with smaller framed cows vs large framed cows right ?
but if your calves are docked for being small framed
then which cows make more money ?

 

[RD-Sam]

Because calves from larger framed cows are generally larger and weigh more. They want the larger bulls because they sire larger calves. You are selling by the pound, more pounds equals more profit, to a certain point. Larger framed animals general have a higher percentage of hanging weight. 5 to 6 frame on the cows, 6 to 7 frame on the bulls, that is what alot of buyers are looking for. Dinks don't cut it when you are selling by the pound.

Is that enough reasons for you Doc?

Red Dog Sam-

This is just exactly the kind of uninformed, incorrect, illogical, and barn blind answer I expected from you! As I have repeatedly attempted to assist you in really LEARNING the FACTS of the BEEF BUSINESS in the past - almost two years now - I have to finally come to the conclusion that you have not, and probably WILL not understand the specifics of making a PROFIT in the beef business.

Too closed-minded I guess.

I won't srgue with ANY of you who disagree with me. It is your opportunity to be narrow-minded and not know the difference between what is small and TOO small, or BIG and TOO BIG!

YOUR choice.

DOC HARRIS

I don't want to argue with you either Doc, but that comes from a seedstock producer who also has a commercial herd, and their profit is much better than most in the business today.

By the way, my 6+ frame cows do just fine grazing in the pasture and do not require large amounts of feed to sustain them, and they breed back with no problem. So, where is the loss?

 

[Brandonm22]

At the @#@#$@#$#!! prices I am seeing this fall for feeders I don't know why anybody cares anymore about producing the best possible calf for the feedlot sector of the business. IF you REALLY are making money selling 6 frame calves off of 15 weight cows, DON"T change anything!!! Keep doing what you are doing. That has always been my philosophy. IF however you are losing $100 a cow producing those big calves you got two options: figure out how to get MORE for your calves or go get some smaller cows that require less dollar inputs. The cow industry is SHRINKING big time. The feedlots and the packers are going too buy whatever comes down the line. If you REALLY can make money with the big cows stay with them and put all those profits in the kids' college fund. However if you are raiding the kids' college funds to stay in the beef business you need to make some kind of changes. To me the question right now is do we go with 1200 lb cows or do we need to go back to a 1000 lb cow (the standard purebred British breed cow of the 70s). I don't see how we justify pouring feed into 1400-1700 lb cows too produce 80 and 90 cent a pound calves.

 

[RD-Sam]

I think what has been the biggest problem lately, is the selloff from all the genetic defects, the selloff from the drought in most of the country, and the market getting flooded with dairy cattle when the government subsidizes them.

The least of my worries is a cow being a little too big. :cowboy:

 

[smnherf]

There are a lot of reasons why. The industry is just starting to focus more and more on cow size and efficiency. The beef industry doesn't change over night. It takes a long time to turn over an entire cowherd.

I have fed enough cattle and tracked individual performance on enough of them to realize that frame score alone is a relatively poor indicator of performance. Many cases the largest framed cattle are some of the slower growers. You actually have to use a scale in order to tell though.

We need to get away from the idea that you have to have frame in order to grow. This may have been true when the frame craze came about and there was a huge push for more performance and growth, but today there are getting to be a lot more frame 5 bulls out there that will sire calves that will outgrow the frame 7 cattle of yesterday. There are a lot of cattle that get bought based on averages and assumptions that may or may not be true with todays genetics. Order buyers and feedlots are a stubborn lot and are very slow to change their old theories.

 

[RD-Sam]

There are a lot of reasons why. The industry is just starting to focus more and more on cow size and efficiency. The beef industry doesn't change over night. It takes a long time to turn over an entire cowherd.

I have fed enough cattle and tracked individual performance on enough of them to realize that frame score alone is a relatively poor indicator of performance. Many cases the largest framed cattle are some of the slower growers. You actually have to use a scale in order to tell though.

We need to get away from the idea that you have to have frame in order to grow. This may have been true when the frame craze came about and there was a huge push for more performance and growth, but today there are getting to be a lot more frame 5 bulls out there that will sire calves that will outgrow the frame 7 cattle of yesterday. There are a lot of cattle that get bought based on averages and assumptions that may or may not be true with todays genetics. Order buyers and feedlots are a stubborn lot and are very slow to change their old theories.

So, if the feedlots want the larger framed animals, why would you raise smaller framed ones and not get paid as well? :?

 

[novaman]

I think what has been the biggest problem lately, is the selloff from all the genetic defects, the selloff from the drought in most of the country, and the market getting flooded with dairy cattle when the government subsidizes them.

The least of my worries is a cow being a little too big. :cowboy:

I have to ask what this statement is all about. I know its getting off topic but it sounds like you don't have a clue what is going on. And in case you don't know, dairy cows going to slaughter are not as high as you would think. In fact the numbers are showing that the number slaughtered is quite comparable to the past few years. On top of all that, there is no government subsidy for slaughtering dairy cows. Period. Get your facts straight before you start blaming your problems on others.

 

[RD-Sam]

I think what has been the biggest problem lately, is the selloff from all the genetic defects, the selloff from the drought in most of the country, and the market getting flooded with dairy cattle when the government subsidizes them.

The least of my worries is a cow being a little too big. :cowboy:

I have to ask what this statement is all about. I know its getting off topic but it sounds like you don't have a clue what is going on. And in case you don't know, dairy cows going to slaughter are not as high as you would think. In fact the numbers are showing that the number slaughtered is quite comparable to the past few years. On top of all that, there is no government subsidy for slaughtering dairy cows. Period. Get your facts straight before you start blaming your problems on others.

So I guess the government doesn't pay people not to milk cows, and these cows just hang out until they die in the pasture. :lol2: Anybody else notice how cheap ground beef is lately? :lol2:

 

[smnherf]

There are a lot of reasons why. The industry is just starting to focus more and more on cow size and efficiency. The beef industry doesn't change over night. It takes a long time to turn over an entire cowherd.

I have fed enough cattle and tracked individual performance on enough of them to realize that frame score alone is a relatively poor indicator of performance. Many cases the largest framed cattle are some of the slower growers. You actually have to use a scale in order to tell though.

We need to get away from the idea that you have to have frame in order to grow. This may have been true when the frame craze came about and there was a huge push for more performance and growth, but today there are getting to be a lot more frame 5 bulls out there that will sire calves that will outgrow the frame 7 cattle of yesterday. There are a lot of cattle that get bought based on averages and assumptions that may or may not be true with todays genetics. Order buyers and feedlots are a stubborn lot and are very slow to change their old theories.

So, if the feedlots want the larger framed animals, why would you raise smaller framed ones and not get paid as well? :?

Feedlots make money with fast growing cattle that can convert feed into lbs of beef. Frame size really doesn't matter if they know the genetics behind the cattle.