WHICH Barn Door?

[Brandonm22]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

The problem with smallish cows is not so much the steers; but rather the heifers. A thousand pound cow has steers calves that finish out at 1000 pounds and dresses out at an acceptable 630 lb carcass. Her heifer calves are going too finish 100 - 150 lbs lighter and typically have a lot of waste fat. Most heifers become feeder calves NOT replacements.

Yes; a cow that is a little bigger than 1000 pounds will also produce a heifer of adequate size. Will 1100 pounds do ( it would give heifers 10 % higher carcass weight)? Surely 1200 pounds is enough, as it makes her daughters 20% larger

Rule of thumb is that a steer finishes at his mom's mature weight and his sister a 100 to a 150 lbs less. A thousand pound cow would have 1000 lb finished steers and 900 lb finished heifers.....not 1200 pounders unless you bred her to a terminal sire and/or weaned the calves to 6-9 months of good grass BEFORE sending them to the feedlot.

 

[SRBeef]

I have not had the time to read EVERY post in this thread but have seen a couple different concepts.

1) even in my beginner status, I have noticed that larger (1500#) cows do NOT usually wean larger calves than the smaller (1200#) cows. I find the calves wean about the same weight so that the 1200 lb cow is weaning a much higher percent of her weight than the 1500 lb cow. Does she eat any differently than the 1500 lb cow producing essentially the same calf?? I don't know for sure but I suspect the larger cow consumes significantly more feed while producing the same pounds of calf.

2) I think that we each need to identify who our customer is and what that customer wants to buy and what that customer is willing to pay for what they want to buy. Then we should see if we can produce what the customer wants and if we can make a profit from producing that product and selling it to him at the price he is willing to pay. An example of this is Aaron's comment recently that there is a certain price his customers are willing to pay for his stockers no matter what.

At that point we can either make enough profit to sell our target buyer his desired product at the price he is willing to pay or we need to find a different customer/market/product. Or we can keep doing the same old same old until we run out of money and then have a sale.

Jim

 

[HerefordSire]

I have not had the time to read EVERY post in this thread but have seen a couple different concepts.

1) even in my beginner status, I have noticed that larger (1500#) cows do NOT usually wean larger calves than the smaller (1200#) cows. I find the calves wean about the same weight so that the 1200 lb cow is weaning a much higher percent of her weight than the 1500 lb cow. Does she eat any differently than the 1500 lb cow producing essentially the same calf?? I don't know for sure but I suspect the larger cow consumes significantly more feed while producing the same pounds of calf.

2) I think that we each need to identify who our customer is and what that customer wants to buy and what that customer is willing to pay for what they want to buy. Then we should see if we can produce what the customer wants and if we can make a profit from producing that product and selling it to him at the price he is willing to pay. An example of this is Aaron's comment recently that there is a certain price his customers are willing to pay for his stockers no matter what.

At that point we can either make enough profit to sell our target buyer his desired product at the price he is willing to pay or we need to find a different customer/market/product. Or we can keep doing the same old same old until we run out of money and then have a sale.

Jim

To maximize top line, one usually has to be able to dictate price, which usually mean being in a niche market, relatively speaking. As you can easilty see from most posters, most are limited on the top line. Since this is the case, they are trapped. The profit is made on the other ends....the sides where the limit can be set. As long as you are having a limit set, you are pretty well at the mercy of others. Take the rein in your own hands and make the required decisions to be your own boss. Do not be a follower like Doc and the media encourages (do not ignore them either). Be a leader. A trendsetter. Then when everyone catches up to you, sell to the followers.

 

[BRG]

I have not had the time to read EVERY post in this thread but have seen a couple different concepts.

1) even in my beginner status, I have noticed that larger (1500#) cows do NOT usually wean larger calves than the smaller (1200#) cows. I find the calves wean about the same weight so that the 1200 lb cow is weaning a much higher percent of her weight than the 1500 lb cow. Does she eat any differently than the 1500 lb cow producing essentially the same calf?? I don't know for sure but I suspect the larger cow consumes significantly more feed while producing the same pounds of calf.

2) I think that we each need to identify who our customer is and what that customer wants to buy and what that customer is willing to pay for what they want to buy. Then we should see if we can produce what the customer wants and if we can make a profit from producing that product and selling it to him at the price he is willing to pay. An example of this is Aaron's comment recently that there is a certain price his customers are willing to pay for his stockers no matter what.

At that point we can either make enough profit to sell our target buyer his desired product at the price he is willing to pay or we need to find a different customer/market/product. Or we can keep doing the same old same old until we run out of money and then have a sale.

1. I don't have a problem with the 1200 lbs cow, but from what I gather from some posters, colleges, and some publications is that we should have 1000 lbs cows, and to me, that size cow just don't get done what needs to be done.

2. You make my point about producing what our customers want. (feeders & packers)

Anybody read the article in this issue of BEEF Magazine with Tom Brink of Five Rivers Feedyard?

 

[SRBeef]

1. I don't have a problem with the 1200 lbs cow, but from what I gather from some posters, colleges, and some publications is that we should have 1000 lbs cows, and to me, that size cow just don't get done what needs to be done.

I wonder if this small cow number will be different for different breeds? My comments are based on my more or less pure Herefords. I would agree that I'm not sure the same comments hold true if my cows were held to 1000 lbs. The smaller cows I'm talking about are my 1200 pounders. Here is one of my favorite pictures. Two 1200 pounders with a 1500 pounder alongside.

********* admin pls see note below

I sure do not want to start breeding with "miniature" cattle which seem to be creating a buzz in some areas, like miniature horses. I'm not into running a Circus.

There may be some breeds that will work at 1000 lb. I don't see my Herefords really being healthy and solid/"beefy" at that size.

Jim

********* admin note - it is hard to describe how much time I waste trying to log on to Ranchers trying to show a photo here. I think the photo problem really limits the usefulness of this site. fwiw. I have tried twice now to reset ranchers logon pw with no avail. I am done messing with pictures on this site until something changes.

 

[Frankie]

1. I don't have a problem with the 1200 lbs cow, but from what I gather from some posters, colleges, and some publications is that we should have 1000 lbs cows, and to me, that size cow just don't get done what needs to be done.

I wonder if this small cow number will be different for different breeds? My comments are based on my more or less pure Herefords. I would agree that I'm not sure the same comments hold true if my cows were held to 1000 lbs. The smaller cows I'm talking about are my 1200 pounders. Here is one of my favorite pictures. Two 1200 pounders with a 1500 pounder alongside.

********* admin pls see note below

I sure do not want to start breeding with "miniature" cattle which seem to be creating a buzz in some areas, like miniature horses. I'm not into running a Circus.

There may be some breeds that will work at 1000 lb. I don't see my Herefords really being healthy and solid/"beefy" at that size.

Jim

********* admin note - it is hard to describe how much time I waste trying to log on to Ranchers trying to show a photo here. I think the photo problem really limits the usefulness of this site. fwiw. I have tried twice now to reset ranchers logon pw with no avail. I am done messing with pictures on this site until something changes.

Have you tried using www.photobucket.com? It has worked well for me.

 

[novatech]

For some time now the most efficient cow was 1200 pounds. I agreed that this was a good weight/size because with the proper terminal bull it would still be posible. Now we are going to 1000 lb. cows. A decent 1000 lb cow weaning a calf 50% of her body weight is 500 lbs.
I googled this up and you do the math.

The amount of time your cattle spend in the feedyard depends on how much they weigh coming in, their rate of gain and mature size potential. Feedyards feed cattle to finish around 1,100 to 1,200 lbs., the weight that packers prefer. A 600 lb. steer that gains 3 lbs. per day will be on feed 167 days to reach 1,100 lbs., while a 750 lb. yearling will be on feed 133 days to reach 1,150 lbs.

Unless you want to butcher your own stock and direct market the beef, it just is not going to happen right or wrong, efficient or not.

 

[SRBeef]

1. I don't have a problem with the 1200 lbs cow, but from what I gather from some posters, colleges, and some publications is that we should have 1000 lbs cows, and to me, that size cow just don't get done what needs to be done.

I wonder if this small cow number will be different for different breeds? My comments are based on my more or less pure Herefords. I would agree that I'm not sure the same comments hold true if my cows were held to 1000 lbs. The smaller cows I'm talking about are my 1200 pounders. Here is one of my favorite pictures. Two 1200 pounders with a 1500 pounder alongside.

********* admin pls see note below

I sure do not want to start breeding with "miniature" cattle which seem to be creating a buzz in some areas, like miniature horses. I'm not into running a Circus.

There may be some breeds that will work at 1000 lb. I don't see my Herefords really being healthy and solid/"beefy" at that size.

Jim

********* admin note - it is hard to describe how much time I waste trying to log on to Ranchers trying to show a photo here. I think the photo problem really limits the usefulness of this site. fwiw. I have tried twice now to reset ranchers logon pw with no avail. I am done messing with pictures on this site until something changes.

Have you tried using http://www.photobucket.com? It has worked well for me.

Thank you for the suggestion, Frankie. I'll try photobucket. It has to be better.

 

[MoGal]

For some time now the most efficient cow was 1200 pounds. I agreed that this was a good weight/size because with the proper terminal bull it would still be posible. Now we are going to 1000 lb. cows. A decent 1000 lb cow weaning a calf 50% of her body weight is 500 lbs.
I googled this up and you do the math.

The amount of time your cattle spend in the feedyard depends on how much they weigh coming in, their rate of gain and mature size potential. Feedyards feed cattle to finish around 1,100 to 1,200 lbs., the weight that packers prefer. A 600 lb. steer that gains 3 lbs. per day will be on feed 167 days to reach 1,100 lbs., while a 750 lb. yearling will be on feed 133 days to reach 1,150 lbs.

Unless you want to butcher your own stock and direct market the beef, it just is not going to happen right or wrong, efficient or not.

I think that's where Kit Pharo fails ............. the majority of cow/calf producers sell at the salebarn and as long as they do, Pharo's stock won't work. How many head does Kit Pharo send to the feedyard every year???

 

[3waycross]

I have a neighbor that bought one of kits bulls. They make dandy calves but he admits he takes a beating when he sells calves. The ones from that bull get sorted out and are sold separate because of size. In the long run those calves may make more money because they finish sooner, but the guy making the profit isn;t the one that owns the bull.

More likely is that the fella making the profit is the one who SOLD the bull :shock:

 

[alacattleman]

I have a neighbor that bought one of kits bulls. They make dandy calves but he admits he takes a beating when he sells calves. The ones from that bull get sorted out and are sold separate because of size. In the long run those calves may make more money because they finish sooner, but the guy making the profit isn;t the one that owns the bull.

More likely is that the fella making the profit is the one who SOLD the bull :shock:

wonder do you get a nice little plaque,, of his philosopy complete with signiature, when you purchase one

 

[Willow Springs]

I think the Pharo message is very clear, and cannot be disputed as a general rule. You will run more smaller cows, raising more total pounds of calf worth more per pound on the same resources as you will larger cows. Anything that I have read from him or heard him say does not advocate 900-1000 lb fine made cattle, or breeding for smaller and smaller cattle. He does advocate big volume, heavier muscled cattle that have less mature body weight. Don't disregard the message, or change the meaning because you don't like how vocal the messenger is.

I don't listen to the message because it is Kit Pharo. He isn't saying anything different than a lot of the research (and some producers)was saying way back in the 70's when the exotic cattle first came in. The more moderate (1150-1250) lb british based cows are more profitable. If you are worried about the cattle being too small for the feedlot use hybrid vigour to get growthier calves. The tendency to fall in love with a breed and not use hybrid vigour in the cow herd and for terminal calves is one of the things that is costing our industry huge amounts of dollars every year.

 

[KMacGinley]

I think the Pharo message is very clear, and cannot be disputed as a general rule. You will run more smaller cows, raising more total pounds of calf worth more per pound on the same resources as you will larger cows. Anything that I have read from him or heard him say does not advocate 900-1000 lb fine made cattle, or breeding for smaller and smaller cattle. He does advocate big volume, heavier muscled cattle that have less mature body weight. Don't disregard the message, or change the meaning because you don't like how vocal the messenger is.

I don't listen to the message because it is Kit Pharo. He isn't saying anything different than a lot of the research (and some producers)was saying way back in the 70's when the exotic cattle first came in. The more moderate (1150-1250) lb british based cows are more profitable. If you are worried about the cattle being too small for the feedlot use hybrid vigour to get growthier calves. The tendency to fall in love with a breed and not use hybrid vigour in the cow herd and for terminal calves is one of the things that is costing our industry huge amounts of dollars every year.

I don't know which Kit Pharo you are talking about, but the one I know of is saying to make frame 1-3 1000 lb cows for maximum profit. People in desparate straits will often grasp at straws from a smooth talker. This has happened over and over again in agriculture. Rex Rabbits, LLamas, sunflowers, emus, ostriches, alpacas, Lowline angus etc.

 

[3waycross]

I think the Pharo message is very clear, and cannot be disputed as a general rule. You will run more smaller cows, raising more total pounds of calf worth more per pound on the same resources as you will larger cows. Anything that I have read from him or heard him say does not advocate 900-1000 lb fine made cattle, or breeding for smaller and smaller cattle. He does advocate big volume, heavier muscled cattle that have less mature body weight. Don't disregard the message, or change the meaning because you don't like how vocal the messenger is.

I don't listen to the message because it is Kit Pharo. He isn't saying anything different than a lot of the research (and some producers)was saying way back in the 70's when the exotic cattle first came in. The more moderate (1150-1250) lb british based cows are more profitable. If you are worried about the cattle being too small for the feedlot use hybrid vigour to get growthier calves. The tendency to fall in love with a breed and not use hybrid vigour in the cow herd and for terminal calves is one of the things that is costing our industry huge amounts of dollars every year.

I don't know which Kit Pharo you are talking about, but the one I know of is saying to make frame 1-3 1000 lb cows for maximum profit. People in desparate straits will often grasp at straws from a smooth talker. This has happened over and over again in agriculture. Rex Rabbits, LLamas, sunflowers, emus, ostriches, alpacas, Lowline angus etc.

Based on the pictures of the cattle YOU raise I would say you have found the happy medium bwetween Kit Pharo and the 1500 to 1700 lb fram 6.5 to 7 crowd. At the very least it gives you some credibility.

 

[hillsdown]

Can someone please post a pic of a frame 1 bull or cow.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Can someone please post a pic of a frame 1 bull or cow.

If you download the forage tested bull sale sale book from the forage tested bull sale thread you will some 0's aswell.

 

[Willow Springs]

I don't know which Kit Pharo you are talking about, but the one I know of is saying to make frame 1-3 1000 lb cows for maximum profit. People in desparate straits will often grasp at straws from a smooth talker. This has happened over and over again in agriculture. Rex Rabbits, LLamas, sunflowers, emus, ostriches, alpacas, Lowline angus etc.

I think you better do a bit more reading and maybe listen to his seminars a little more closely (if you have been to one), and not listening to what everyone else tells you. I have heard him say that a 900 or 1000 lb cow would be even more profitable on a per acre basis IF they would be accepted in the commodity beef market system, but I have never heard him advocate doing that unless you were going to direct market. I haven't seen any of his herdsires with a frame below 2.5, with most being in the 3.5 to 4.5 range. Good thick 3-4.5 frame cows are going to weigh 1150-1350 lbs in good condition; thats a long ways from 1000 lb cows.

 

[stac]

In Canada, marketing three - four frame calves is pretty touchy. We were there before kit and occ, we gained nothing more than experience.

 

[stac]

This is more fad than than function, people looking for the right fit really

 

[ANAZAZI]

Rule of thumb is that a steer finishes at his mom's mature weight and his sister a 100 to a 150 lbs less. A thousand pound cow would have 1000 lb finished steers and 900 lb finished heifers.....not 1200 pounders unless you bred her to a terminal sire and/or weaned the calves to 6-9 months of good grass BEFORE sending them to the feedlot.

I mean a 1200 lb cow will readily make heifers to finish above the desired weight: 20 % larger heifers than the 1000 lb cow will produce.
And maybe a cow of 1100 lbs will do the job.