WHICH Barn Door?

[redcowsrule33]

It floors me that after thousands of years we still are trying to prove old Aristotle wrong....

And we wonder why the human race continues to quarrel like a bunch of seagulls.

 

[mwj]

When people figure out NET profit the problem will be solved :cowboy: The majority of producers like to keep records that make things look good instead of giving honest answers!
Let a cpa track your expenses and costs in an unbiased manor and you would be surprised.

 

[novaman]

I think what has been the biggest problem lately, is the selloff from all the genetic defects, the selloff from the drought in most of the country, and the market getting flooded with dairy cattle when the government subsidizes them.

The least of my worries is a cow being a little too big. :cowboy:

I have to ask what this statement is all about. I know its getting off topic but it sounds like you don't have a clue what is going on. And in case you don't know, dairy cows going to slaughter are not as high as you would think. In fact the numbers are showing that the number slaughtered is quite comparable to the past few years. On top of all that, there is no government subsidy for slaughtering dairy cows. Period. Get your facts straight before you start blaming your problems on others.

So I guess the government doesn't pay people not to milk cows, and these cows just hang out until they die in the pasture. :lol2: Anybody else notice how cheap ground beef is lately? :lol2:

The government certainly doesn't pay people to milk cows. That is why we sell milk to processors, so we get paid. There is a subsidy to boost the prices producers receive but that would keep cows from being slaughtered, not the other way around. The CWT program is designed to slaughter dairy cows from producers willing to get rid of the whole herd. This is not a government program though. We producers have money deducted from our paychecks for every pound of milk we sell in order to run this program.

Of course the cows don't hang ou until they die. Dairy cows are still beef producing animals whether you like it or not. There always has been and always will be a steady flow of dairy cows going to slaughter just the same as you send your calves to be slaughtered. By the way, that cheap ground beef is going to stimulate demand.

 

[alexfarms]

When people figure out NET profit the problem will be solved :cowboy: The majority of producers like to keep records that make things look good instead of giving honest answers!
Let a cpa track your expenses and costs in an unbiased manor and you would be surprised.

"Let a cpa track your expenses and costs in an unbiased manor and you would be surprised." Why pay a cpa to tell you what you already know. The cow/calf business isn't about how much NET you have in any given week or month or year. It is about whether you can weather the storms, like we are experiencing now, and still be in production when things get profitable again and what you do with those profits if they come. There are things that will pay in good times and bad....cow efficiency is a broad term that will keep the wheels turning on cow/calf operations over the long haul. Carcass traits are the gravy you put on the main course and cow efficiency is the meat and potatoes. It is hard to make gravy without meat and it tastes alot better with some potatoes. Cow efficiency is determined by environment to a major degree and there are alot of different environments, some of them are right next to each other.

 

[mwj]

You would have to have an understanding banker to operate without a net profit! My point is that big gross sales dollars are nice but it is not an indicator of profit.
Sometimes there comes a time when there is more money in selling hay and labor and leasing the grass. If you do not have the honest figures on profit a
or lack of you may very well lose the farm or ranch and never get the chance to get back in.

 

[hillsdown]

Doc I like your post. It makes a h@ll of a lot of sense.

BTW who the heck says that a 1000-1200 pound smaller framed cow cannot wean 600-700 lb steer in 210 days. If yours cannot, then you need to look at a different breed. Also the 1700-2000 lb cows that raise a dinky 500 lb steer , you really really need to look at your breed and your genetics.

There is more to growth and carcass than just frame size.

 

[alexfarms]

You would have to have an understanding banker to operate without a net profit! My point is that big gross sales dollars are nice but it is not an indicator of profit.
Sometimes there comes a time when there is more money in selling hay and labor and leasing the grass. If you do not have the honest figures on profit a
or lack of you may very well lose the farm or ranch and never get the chance to get back in.

There are good years and bad years, jumping in and out is expensive too and I think most experienced bankers know that.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

CPA's are very good ranchers generally as they are trained to understand all the moving parts of a P & L and Balance Sheet. Heck, most farmers and ranchers can't even balance a check book!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[novatech]

Breeding for big mama cows flat out does not make scents. Even if you have highly efficient cattle you can be more efficient by down sizing. Common scents alone ought to tell you this. With the proper genetics this does not mean you have to sacrifice growth of the calf. Choosing a cow on size is a single trait selection as well as any other trait. I believe that when one takes the time to develop the right genetics in their cows and follows up with the right bull you can have your cake and eat it too.
Why do people still buy big cows? Got to be an over dose of testosterone. :lol:
Regardless if it is right or wrong, the replacement breeder must satisfy the buyer. I can tell you that their attitudes are changing.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Frankie wrote:

Quote [Why do you insist that YOUR concept is common sense? And those of us who dare to disagree are idiots or cowards or scardy cats? I find that attitude insulting.]Quote

Frankie-

I have read and re-read my original post on this thread, and I am unable to find the words "idiots" or "cowards" or "scardy cats" ANYWHERE in the post! Are you sure that you are reading the same post, or are you slightly confused?

Try reading it - AGAIN! You might be able to get the subliminal substantive iteration of my post. I have no ax to grind with any producer who is eager to help himself and make a PROFIT in the cattle business. As I have mentioned before on this Forum, I think that the "BU$INE$$" of raising Beef Cattle, in it's entirety, is one of the MOST difficult occupations in existence - if it is performed correctly. In all of my businesses in my 83 years I have attempted to teach and help others in that particular business. I have been a Teacher in THREE of those businesses. If I have been able to be of assistance to someone else, that it my purpose. If not, at least I have tried. If you CHOOSE to be insulted from reading my post, that is YOUR problem.

But I am not going to engage in specious arguing, or nit-picking, or back biting! If you don't agree with - or dislike what am saying, read something else!

DOC HARRIS

 

[hillsdown]

:lol2: :lol:

 

[Northern Rancher]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

 

[BRG]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

 

[dun]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

Yup and yup!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

Yup and yup!

and I will also agree!!! MODERATE SIZE does not necessarily mean SMALL.
In our "neck of the woods", we refer to moderate size cows in the 12-1400# range. I have some in that range and some larger. Anyone that "knows" me, knows we make our biggest profits selling replacement females. But, half my calf crop is males and we don't sell very many bulls (castrate at least 90%). We place a portion of our steers on the Cornell Univ feedout program. We retain ownership. Our steers have been the HIGHEST PROFIT group (and/or individual) steers since we've been partcipating (out of several hundred head). The head of the program does not understand it, because the crossbred steers should out-perform our purebreds. Hmm, we must be doing something right with our "moderate to big" cows, that run on grass and hay alone..

Bottom line, it doesn't make any difference what size your cows are, IF you are making a NET profit. My steers net me AT LEAST $200 over the cow costs each year (fertilizer, feed (hay for cows & grain for weaned calves), meds, vet, labor paid, fencing, breeding, etc). I'll be satisfied with that kind of NET profit - from my STEERS.

So, Doc, let's not beat this into the ground. There is NO RIGHT SIZE COW for EVERYONE. We appreciate your wisdom, but you don't necessarily KNOW what's best for everyone in every area.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

At the risk of "beating this subject into the ground", I would direct your attention to just ONE of the thousands of articles pertaining to cow size, and the consequences of having a cow herd that is VERY LARGE (whatever that connotation may mean to anyone). Words mean things, and whether a brood cow is the "right" size for your operation is entirely up to you and your Accountant and Banker! A 1000# cow may be too small and a 2000# cow may be just right - or not. That is your decision to make - given whatever factors you wish to consider in the decision. The importance of CONSIDERING ALL of the cogent components and details in arriving at those decisions is critical for all of the right reasons. It is up to the individual to decide what those reasons may be.

At this point I will paraphrase Patrick Henry by saying, "Already the 'big cow advocates' are moving in from - wherever. As for me, Give Me Common Sense, or Forget the Entire Subject!"

This article is from the current CattleToday Front Page by Larry A. Redman, State Forage Specialist, Texas AgriLife Extension Service, College Station, Texas.

"Evaluate your stocking rate: Use of the appropriate stocking rate is the most critical aspect of livestock man- agement and one that generally does not cost at all! Cattle size has increased over the past 40 to 50 years and forage intake increases with body size. If prior ownership of a property pastured 100 head of cows, stocking at the same rate today would create a severely over-stocked situation simply due to the increase in cow size. Coupled with woody species encroachment over time, many properties simply cannot support their current level of stocking. To make matters worse, higher fuel and fertilizer prices are forcing some individuals to reduce or eliminate their fertilizer inputs on introduced forages, thus decreasing the carrying capacity of the property even more. Drought is another issue that significantly affects stocking rate and should be built into the stocking rate management plan. Producers should carefully, with the advice of stocking rate experts, determine what their appropriate stocking rate should be and make adjustments accordingly. Another tip, in many cases, less is more."

Case closed!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Hello Doc

At the risk of "beating this subject into the ground", I would direct your attention to just ONE of the thousands of articles pertaining to cow size, and the consequences of having a cow herd that is VERY LARGE (whatever that connotation may mean to anyone). Words mean things, and whether a brood cow is the "right" size for your operation is entirely up to you and your Accountant and Banker! A 1000# cow may be too small and a 2000# cow may be just right - or not. That is your decision to make - given whatever factors you wish to consider in the decision. The importance of CONSIDERING ALL of the cogent components and details in arriving at those decisions is critical for all of the right reasons. It is up to the individual to decide what those reasons may be.

You are exactly right.

No one (I think) is arguing that bigger cows eat more than smaller ones - with smaller cattle, you can pasture more head than larger. But, what is too big & what is too small depends on the area and management of the herd. Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.
You always say, we in the BUI$NE$$ to make $$$ - so bottom line is what makes EACH producer the most $$$$ in their own operation.

 

[dun]

Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.
You always say, we in the BUI$NE$$ to make $$$ - so bottom line is what makes EACH producer the most $$$$ in their own operation.

Now I'm disillusioned! I thought sure that "one size fits all" was the factual truth

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Might be" in clothes - not cattle!

 

[novatech]

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?