WHICH Barn Door?

[DOC HARRIS]

Maybe this will help. (But...don't put any money on it!) It is guaranteed that some misguided soul will twist the "COMMON SENSE" rhetoric herein depicted into some skewed tangental blather to suit their own purposes. But for you "Common Sense Truth Seekers" who are interested in attempting to move your Beef Cattle Production BU$INE$$ into the Black side of the Ledger - carefully read this:

Super-sized
Cows Require
Appropriate
Management
by Donald Stotts,
OSU ag communications specialist

It is a truth hiding in plain sight: Mature weight and milk production of many commercial beef cows are both greater than they were 30 years to 40 years ago, and that means management considerations must change as well.

Oklahoma State University (OSU) animal scientists Bob Kropp and Glenn Selk explain that many commercial ranchers underestimate the mature size of their cows simply because they have not weighed the adult cows to know what average mature weight to expect.

"Today's cows are not the type your grandfather was used to raising," said Selk, OSU Cooperative Extension livestock reproduction specialist. "To expect large, heavy-milking cows to be in moderate body condition at calving and maintain condition through breeding, they must receive more feed than smaller, lighter-milking cows."

According to the 1996 National Research Council's guidelines for beef cows calving in February and March and weaning in October, heavier-milking cows weighing about 1,250 pounds (lb.) require 34% more energy on average for an entire year compared to 1,100-lb. moderately milking cows.

Consequently, an operation that was carrying 100 head of the smaller cows need carry only 66 head of the larger cows to use the same quantity of forage available on a specific farm or ranch.

The larger cows also will require 34% more winter hay and supplement to maintain body condition.
Kropp, an OSU professor of animal science, said feed and fertilizer prices highlight the need for producers to consider reducing herd size to better fit required stocking rates.

"Reduced stocking rates will definitely be necessary on improved pastures if lower amounts of fertilizer are applied," he said. "Proper use of pasture forages is the foundation of any cattle ranch."

A larger mature cow size also affects the principle of percent of body weight needed for heifers to reach puberty. For a cow that eventually will weigh 1,000 lb., the target weight for the heifer would be 650 lb. For a cow that eventually will weigh 1,250 lb., the target weight would be 812 lb. going into the heifer's first breeding season, if the producer is to promote a high cycling and pregnancy rate."Many ranchers underestimate the target weight for replacement heifers," Kropp said.

"Successful and long-lasting cattle operations are those that maintain efficiency during periods of volatile input costs and roller-coaster cattle markets," he said.

DOC HARRIS

 

[SRBeef]

Maybe this will help. (But...don't put any money on it!) It is guaranteed that some misguided soul will twist the "COMMON SENSE" rhetoric herein depicted into some skewed tangental blather to suit their own purposes. But for you "Common Sense Truth Seekers" who are interested in attempting to move your Beef Cattle Production BU$INE$$ into the Black side of the Ledger - carefully read this:

Super-sized
Cows Require
Appropriate
Management
by Donald Stotts,
OSU ag communications specialist

It is a truth hiding in plain sight: Mature weight and milk production of many commercial beef cows are both greater than they were 30 years to 40 years ago, and that means management considerations must change as well.

Oklahoma State University (OSU) animal scientists Bob Kropp and Glenn Selk explain that many commercial ranchers underestimate the mature size of their cows simply because they have not weighed the adult cows to know what average mature weight to expect.

"Today's cows are not the type your grandfather was used to raising," said Selk, OSU Cooperative Extension livestock reproduction specialist. "To expect large, heavy-milking cows to be in moderate body condition at calving and maintain condition through breeding, they must receive more feed than smaller, lighter-milking cows."

According to the 1996 National Research Council's guidelines for beef cows calving in February and March and weaning in October, heavier-milking cows weighing about 1,250 pounds (lb.) require 34% more energy on average for an entire year compared to 1,100-lb. moderately milking cows.

Consequently, an operation that was carrying 100 head of the smaller cows need carry only 66 head of the larger cows to use the same quantity of forage available on a specific farm or ranch.

The larger cows also will require 34% more winter hay and supplement to maintain body condition.
Kropp, an OSU professor of animal science, said feed and fertilizer prices highlight the need for producers to consider reducing herd size to better fit required stocking rates.

"Reduced stocking rates will definitely be necessary on improved pastures if lower amounts of fertilizer are applied," he said. "Proper use of pasture forages is the foundation of any cattle ranch."

A larger mature cow size also affects the principle of percent of body weight needed for heifers to reach puberty. For a cow that eventually will weigh 1,000 lb., the target weight for the heifer would be 650 lb. For a cow that eventually will weigh 1,250 lb., the target weight would be 812 lb. going into the heifer's first breeding season, if the producer is to promote a high cycling and pregnancy rate."Many ranchers underestimate the target weight for replacement heifers," Kropp said.

"Successful and long-lasting cattle operations are those that maintain efficiency during periods of volatile input costs and roller-coaster cattle markets," he said.

DOC HARRIS

From what I can see so far in my operation, those 66 larger cows (my emphasis above) will NOT produce enough additional pounds of calf to make up for the 1/3 reduction in numbers. In the example above I would change the definition of a "large" cow to 1600 lb + and "small" cow to about 1200 lb from what I see in my Herefords but the logic is the same. This also points out why a scale and running the herd through it periodically is important, especially in today's markets, as stated above. My 1200 lb target cows and 1300 lb cows actually weaned heavier calves than my 1600 + lb cows.

Jim

 

[novatech]

I agree with the pounds per acre produced. Just way to many test have been done to argue the theory. Having said this then the question arises about how these calves, from smaller cows, will perform in the feed lot. Will these calves be able to keep up with the calves produced from the larger cow? It sees as though the ones from the larger cows have the potential to out grow the ones from the lighter cows thus making them more profitable in the lot.

 

[Willow Springs]

Will these calves be able to keep up with the calves produced from the larger cow? It sees as though the ones from the larger cows have the potential to out grow the ones from the lighter cows thus making them more profitable in the lot.

I think we all know that generally the larger framed calves grow faster. The real questions are:

1.What is more profitable; growing gowthier calves for a longer period of time, or turning over lighter weight cattle more quickly? There are extra costs when turning cattle over quickly, but maybe the smaller framed cattle would provide higher grading carcasses?
Maybe soemone from the feeding industry can show us some numbers?

2. And how much do you need to be discounted on your smaller framed calves to offset the profit/acre advantage over the larger cows?

 

[HerefordSire]

From what I can see so far in my operation, those 66 larger cows (my emphasis above) will NOT produce enough additional pounds of calf to make up for the 1/3 reduction in numbers. In the example above I would change the definition of a "large" cow to 1600 lb + and "small" cow to about 1200 lb from what I see in my Herefords but the logic is the same. This also points out why a scale and running the herd through it periodically is important, especially in today's markets, as stated above. My 1200 lb target cows and 1300 lb cows actually weaned heavier calves than my 1600 + lb cows.

Jim

You can hide many mistakes by retailing beef to private clientele. I obviously don't agree with the general theory. Did you measure the intake of all of your cows? Or are you guessing?

 

[Willow Springs]

I obviously don't agree with the general theory. Did you measure the intake of all of your cows? Or are you guessing?

I'll answer somewhat for him. It isn't a guess; it is fact that a larger animal eats more than a smaller animal. The studies were done years ago, and I can't beleive that you would not prescribe to that as a fact and call it theory.

However, if you are talking about RFI/NFI/NFE then that is a different story. A 2000 lb cow can be more efficient than a 1000 lb cow in terms of maintenance energy which is what the process measures. However, that 2000 lb cow is still going to eat more in a day than the 1000 lb cow especially if fed ad lib.

 

[HerefordSire]

I obviously don't agree with the general theory. Did you measure the intake of all of your cows? Or are you guessing?

I'll answer somewhat for him. It isn't a guess; it is fact that a larger animal eats more than a smaller animal. The studies were done years ago, and I can't beleive that you would not prescribe to that as a fact and call it theory.

However, if you are talking about RFI/NFI/NFE then that is a different story. A 2000 lb cow can be more efficient than a 1000 lb cow in terms of maintenance energy which is what the process measures. However, that 2000 lb cow is still going to eat more in a day than the 1000 lb cow especially if fed ad lib.

I think the majority of breeders and ranchers believe what you believe which could be the reason many are going out of business.

 

[EAT BEEF]

You guys beat this to death,but whats most important is profit per acre not lbs per acre.It's going to depend on your management,marketing,and natural resources as to what type of cattle are most profitable for you.

 

[Herefords.US]

"To expect large, heavy-milking cows to be in moderate body condition at calving and maintain condition through breeding, they must receive more feed than smaller, lighter-milking cows."

I think the thing that often gets overlooked in these discussions is the heavy milking versus lighter milking part of the discussion. The amount of milk that a cow produces certainly has a significant effect on the weight of her calf at weaning. And the OPTIMUM amount of milk that a cow can produce AND still stay in good shape and breed back on time can vary a lot depending on the environment she's working in.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

You guys beat this to death,but whats most important is profit per acre not lbs per acre.It's going to depend on your management,marketing,and natural resources as to what type of cattle are most profitable for you.

Another thing to consider....there could be a correlation of size/weight to something unheard of...like longevity or fertility that is hidden and doesn't show up easily. Profit may be higher with larger cattle.

 

[EAT BEEF]

You guys beat this to death,but whats most important is profit per acre not lbs per acre.It's going to depend on your management,marketing,and natural resources as to what type of cattle are most profitable for you.

Another thing to consider....there could be a correlation of size/weight to something unheard of...like longevity or fertility that is hidden and doesn't show up easily. Profit may be higher with larger cattle.

It might be for some,and thats for each to figure out and manage for himself

 

[HerefordSire]

It might be for some,and thats for each to figure out and manage for himself

The ones that are left standing are likely the ones that are making the frogskins. You sound like a conservative.

 

[Brandonm22]

All I know is that my Grandfather's oldest straightbred commercial Hereford dinks were a lot longer lasting (some past 20 years) than anything we have ever had since. Weight takes a toll. Whether it is a cow, an old person, or an athlete. They have to carry it (weight) around, support it, feed it, cool it. Old broken down cull cows weren't always old and broken down. Something (ie time, nutritional stress, etc) broke her down. A smaller cow has to eat less to meet her needs, consumes less, has less mass too cool in the hot summers, is carring less weight on her hocks, knees, hips, and other joints, has less weight on her topline, less weight on the mammary ligament, generally gives birth to a smaller calf. Longhorns are generally considered the cows with the most longevity. They are also usually the lightest weight cows. I don't have any University research too back up my position but I would bet that if all else is equal longevity decreases as you increase cow size (particualy above 1600 lbs).

 

[HerefordSire]

The market is a very efficient mechanism combining supply and demand. This could be different than the most efficient cattle. Therefore, the most profitable cattle could be the least efficient cattle.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Depends on the price of feed and labor.

If I have a ranch that will run a 100 1000lb cows,maybe someday I can get one 100,000lb cow.Sure it will present some challenges,but I'm sure the profit will overcome them.

 

[RD-Sam]

Depends on the price of feed and labor.

If I have a ranch that will run a 100 1000lb cows,maybe someday I can get one 100,000lb cow.Sure it will present some challenges,but I'm sure the profit will overcome them.

Sure would be a lot easier to take care of one cow. :cowboy:

 

[EAT BEEF]

Depends on the price of feed and labor.

If I have a ranch that will run a 100 1000lb cows,maybe someday I can get one 100,000lb cow.Sure it will present some challenges,but I'm sure the profit will overcome them.

Sure would be a lot easier to take care of one cow. :cowboy:

Yes but hard to transport.

 

[RD-Sam]

I'm wondering what the AI device might look like? :mrgreen:

 

[dun]

I'm wondering what the AI device might look like? :mrgreen:

You would probably drive your truck in and walk through the cervix and deposit a 55gal drum of semen

 

[ANAZAZI]

I agree with the pounds per acre produced. Just way to many test have been done to argue the theory. Having said this then the question arises about how these calves, from smaller cows, will perform in the feed lot. Will these calves be able to keep up with the calves produced from the larger cow? It sees as though the ones from the larger cows have the potential to out grow the ones from the lighter cows thus making them more profitable in the lot.

The calves from big cows can outgrow the calves from lesser cows without being more profitable.
The costs to produce a certain amount of beef is roughly the same for big and small cattle.