Whatever yall want to talk about

[bruce.mcmonigle]

http://www.britishlivestockgenetics.com/news.asp?ID=70

Maybe some good news for the Limousin breeders !!

 

[upfrombottom]

Y'all like microwave popcorn or popped in a skillet popcorn?

 

[3waycross]

Y'all like microwave popcorn or popped in a skillet popcorn?

I like it both ways but can't eat it anymore. Darned diverticulitis. believe me it really sucks.

 

[alexfarms]

Fall 2010 Hereford epd's are posted on the AHA website.

 

[Herefords.US]

Fall 2010 Hereford epd's are posted on the AHA website.

Yeah, I noticed the BW EPD of HH Advance 8203U took a significant jump up. It's still too early to know where it'll settle, but the early trend is disappointing.

George

 

[SRBeef]

Fall 2010 Hereford epd's are posted on the AHA website.

Yeah, I noticed the BW EPD of HH Advance 8203U took a significant jump up. It's still too early to know where it'll settle, but the early trend is disappointing.

George

At the risk of bragging, it is nice to see my T-21 bull is now up to $31 in the CHB index and stayed at $26 in the BMI putting him in the top 1% of both. Getting to be darn tough to sell him. I will have to work something out with my neighbor about swapping heifers at breeding time.... apologies for bragging. Jim

 

[Herefords.US]

Fall 2010 Hereford epd's are posted on the AHA website.

Yeah, I noticed the BW EPD of HH Advance 8203U took a significant jump up. It's still too early to know where it'll settle, but the early trend is disappointing.

George

At the risk of bragging, it is nice to see my T-21 bull is now up to $31 in the CHB index and stayed at $26 in the BMI putting him in the top 1% of both. Getting to be darn tough to sell him. I will have to work something out with my neighbor about swapping heifers at breeding time.... apologies for bragging. Jim

Since there's no progeny data to back that up, thus no accuracy, I'd say that information and $5 ought to get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks - and you might get a little change back.

George

 

[SRBeef]

...Since there's no progeny data to back that up, thus no accuracy, I'd say that information and $5 ought to get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks - and you might get a little change back.

George

I know your feelings on these numbers. Since I don't register calves his official numbers will never get much higher in accuracy.

However I have two T-21 calf crops to look at, the first has just been harvested. That may not show up in the AHA site statistics but in my mind T-21's accuracy is about 90%. How many pictures do you want to see... the only things not proven yet are the maternals which will be by next spring when his first heifers calve on their own. Based on the calving ease shown so far though I am not concerned.

As many folks are quick to point out here, there is a time when we need to get our heads away from the computer screen and look at the animals. I have lots of his offspring to look at from all sorts of heifers and cows. My neighbor used him also and has a very nice calf crop.

George, if I was AI I would agree with you. This is the real world with calves on the ground. A fair number of them too. T-21's EPD's based on Jerry Huth's breeding are very accurate judging by the calves walking around.

Here's an April 2010 photo of a T-21 heifer born in 2009:

Here's that same #3 heifer now bred in July:

Here's another recent photo of a different (#4) 2009 born T-21 heifer:

Here's a recent photo of a T-21 steer born March 2010:

Now maybe these calves are not show perfect but they match T-21's EPD's as far as I can see: Very easy calving, good ww, good yw, good sc, good REA, good Fat, Good IMF... ok they are not grain fattened "meatwagons" but they are what I need in my operation. Good grass cattle that can make money mostly on their own. And they have made some very good beef. I am looking forward to calves from his heifers.

I really don't like Starbucks coffee anyway.

Jim

 

[Herefords.US]

My point is those numbers don't mean much at that low accuracy levels! Looking at your calves - now that DOES mean something! But to say that backs up the indexes, when there is nothing to compare them with, is nothing but pure speculation and, as you say, in your mind.

I noticed you haven't "bragged" about the fact that T21's dam appears to have a calf only every other year, based on her AHA progeny record. Now, that, to me, is a statistic that means something - and would be a concern to me...if there isn't an underlying reason.

George

 

[SRBeef]

My point is those numbers don't mean much at that low accuracy levels! Looking at your calves - now that DOES mean something! But to say that backs up the indexes, when there is nothing to compare them with, is nothing but pure speculation and, as you say, in your mind.

I noticed you haven't "bragged" about the fact that T21's dam appears to have a calf only every other year, based on her AHA progeny record. Now, that, to me, is a statistic that means something - and would be a concern to me...if there isn't an underlying reason.

George

On first glance that would be a valid concern. However here is where trusting the breeder/source comes in. I trust Jerry Huth is not going to sell me a bull whose heifers only calve every other year. As I preg check every fall that would be very apparent. I trust that there is or was a reason for his dam progeny....

However if you look at the rest of his pedigree http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C235927232020&9=535250 there is a lot of Feltons 3008, Coopers 9126J, Holdens 767, KCF Bennett etc in his breeding all of which are very proven cattle.

Don't mean to argue here. I feel though that there is a balance of 1) LOOKING AT THE ANIMAL; 2) EPD NUMBERS, and 3) TRUST IN THE BREEDER which are all important in a bull purchase. Using just any one of the three may get you in trouble. Using all three should keep you out of trouble. jmho. Jim

 

[Herefords.US]

Did you look at the progeny record of the dam of your NEW bull before buying him?

2 successive periods of going 15 months between calves - and going over 365 days every time - through 4 calves.

This is something that ISN'T reflected in EPDs.

George

 

[SRBeef]

Did you look at the progeny record of the dam of your NEW bull before buying him?

2 successive periods of going 15 months between calves - and going over 365 days every time - through 4 calves.

This is something that ISN'T reflected in EPDs.

George

To answer your question: no i did not look at the progeny record of my new bull's dam. My answer to that also is that I trust Jerry Huth and there must be a good reason. I am surprised you went to that extent to look him up. But this new bull is very different.

Looking at my new Huth bull, he IS more of a "meatwagon" type but smaller frame size. My neighbor calls him "shorty". Should be very interesting to see his calves. Maybe he will help me keep my average cow size down to about 1200-1300 lb but still keep or increase the beef. He should increase my herd grass efficiency, especially when mated to a couple of my target 1200 lb cows.

The new bull's EPD's are not quite as high as T-21's but perhaps here is an example of what Knersie has been trying to drum into me about phenotype. He may be a good blend of phenotype and EPD's. We'll see.

In any case, most of T-21's EPD's have been steadily rising, especially the CHB, even though I don't register any calves. Somebody must be registering calves out of his relatives to make it change. He is in the top 1% to 5% of the breed in several and even if those EPD's are off a bit that still leaves him pretty high.

Jim

 

[Herefords.US]

It took all of 2 minutes to look him up. There were only 27 bulls in that sale. FYI, I've been studying Huth's herd (EPDs) since I saw Stacked Deck sell in Denver, which I guess was January of 2003.

Interesting that you bought a paternal half brother to your old bull, so you will be linebreeding to a certain extent. I think it should work out well - and your bulls' sire had a dam that was virtually a role model cow - never missed in 10 calves, so maternally you should be stacking the better half.

I tend to study things to death before making a move - and even though I may trust the breeder, I still ask the hard questions when I see something that needs to be clarified. Some of them don't like it much - and most are surprised I have that much information.

George

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Like your new tag line, HUS.

 

[SRBeef]

It took all of 2 minutes to look him up. There were only 27 bulls in that sale. FYI, I've been studying Huth's herd (EPDs) since I saw Stacked Deck sell in Denver, which I guess was January of 2003.

Interesting that you bought a paternal half brother to your old bull, so you will be linebreeding to a certain extent. I think it should work out well - and your bulls' sire had a dam that was virtually a role model cow - never missed in 10 calves, so maternally you should be stacking the better half.

I tend to study things to death before making a move - and even though I may trust the breeder, I still ask the hard questions when I see something that needs to be clarified. Some of them don't like it much - and most are surprised I have that much information.

George

I appreciate your comments and understand folks that study things. I do think there are a variety of possible explanations for the dams' calf spacing. I have zero tolerance for cows and heifers not bred within 45 days of bull in so we will see. I doubt there is a problem there.

As for the particular choice of bull, by the time I decided to buy a second bull in June this was one of only two Jerry had left from his sale. Of the two this is the one he recommended for my needs, even though the new bull is a half brother to my current bull. Being a half brother I was surprised that the new bull looks so different from T21.

As an engineer I too am into data. Researching my new bull after buying him, I found that on the dam side was some Witherspoons Nizhoni breeding and one of the sires on the dam side was a 4.7 frame bull compared to most being in the 6 frame range.

It is interesting to see how two brothers could have such different frame size. Also that basically one grandfather of four suddenly shows up in a 4.7 frame size.

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing his effect on some of my good but too large cows offspring. And as you point out the line breeding on the maternal side is good. We'll see what happens. One nice thing about the beef business is that if I don't like the direction the yearlings are going they go to the processor. So far however I have kept every T21 heifer. He tends to make good looking heifers even out of mediocre cows. But even though I have some less than stellar phenotype cows, they all do well on grass and know how to have a calf unassisted and how to raise a calf. I don't want any rockstar cows that need to be coddled...

Thanks for your replies and information. Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

George has mentioned it, but I'll say it again for emphasis.... to say T21 bred according to his PE EPDs is senseless when you don't have another bull's calves in the same pasture. For a contemporary group to mean anything at all atleast 2 sires needs to be represented.

A few years and a few more bulls later you might feel differently about it all, but I do agree that I like the fact that you've identified a breeder that you trust and sticking by him. Thinking back my very first registered bull had useless EBVs (especially milk), but I still have a few daughters in my commercial herd, never culled one for poor performance or a bad udder, after him I used some very popular performance bulls, with great EBVs (again especially milk) and their daughters don't milk half as good as the bull that was supposed not to breed milk's daughters and subsequently I have very few daughters left of the next 3 or 4 bulls I used.

 

[Brandonm22]

Knersie and George are right. I like the calves (which is really the only important thing); but without more than one bull in the pasture you can't say that he performed up to the EPDs. He could actually be +0 for growth or the growthiest bull in the breed; but you can't mathematically prove either one without something to compare him against.

 

[SRBeef]

Knersie and George are right. I like the calves (which is really the only important thing); but without more than one bull in the pasture you can't say that he performed up to the EPDs. He could actually be +0 for growth or the growthiest bull in the breed; but you can't mathematically prove either one without something to compare him against.

I appreciate the comments and suggestions. As far as having another bull in the field to compare....

My main criteria for a bull, #1,2 & 3 is calving ease since I am usually not even in the same state as my cattle at calving time. T-21 has excellent calving ease numbers and to date has had zero calving problems. The oinly two problems I had were a couple BWF heifers I left on corn way too long. My problem, not T21's. It does not matter to me at all if another bull in the same field had "better" calving ease numbers. As far as I am concerned zero calving problems is good enough for me (and my neighbor who has used T21).

Same with growth - I am weaning close to or over 700 lb at 205 days. How that relates to his growth EPD's exactly is immaterial. I am more concerned about the cow side: weaning weights as a percent of cow weight, than anything about T21.

Same with fat and IMF on steers harvested this spring. The carcasses seem to follow the EPD numbers. Are they exact or how would they be compared to another bull in the same paddocks? I dont care. He is giving me what I want and basically what the EPD's indicate I should see.

So far his heifer daughters look better than the cows they come from and the heifers have good udders. I won't know about their milk etc until next year but there is probably no problem from what I see so far.

Yes I see the point of my experience not proving the numbers without a reference to compare to. However my experience indicates that T21's performance is along the lines of what his EPD's predict.

I am not out to check decimal points on EPDs. I am out to sell good quality, mostly grass fed freezer beef. T21 is giving me what I need. My problem is herd building. There comes a point where I need another bull. I hope to work out a plan with my neighbor where we keep T21 and Shorty, breeding selctively to each. Though because they are half brothers this will only work to a point.

Jim

 

[Herefords.US]

Getting back to HH Advance 8203U -

89 calves with an avg. 105% BW ratio. :frowns:

Looking at the herds from which those calves were reported - Harrell, Holden , Stuber, Hoffman - I'm going to speculate that percentage is not going to moderate much in the future.

It's a shame because I thought the bull had a lot to offer - if the BW didn't jump up.

But I can't see a bull that increases BW by 5% over average being widely used and becoming a significant positive influence in the breed.

Appears I was wrong about this one! :dunce:

George

 

[dun]

Getting back to HH Advance 8203U -

89 calves with an avg. 105% BW ratio. :frowns:

Looking at the herds from which those calves were reported - Harrell, Holden , Stuber, Hoffman - I'm going to speculate that percentage is not going to moderate much in the future.

It's a shame because I thought the bull had a lot to offer - if the BW didn't jump up.

But I can't see a bull that increases BW by 5% over average being widely used and becoming a significant positive influence in the breed.

Appears I was wrong about this one! :dunce:

George

That is a ration within that/those herds. If the others in the group sire tiny little guys that will skew the ratio.