Upcoming Remitall Bull Sale

[greenwillowherefords]

I also haven't been on the boards for a while. I stand corrected.

Welcome back .

I think I am going to stick with the horned side of things. Seems like if you go back in those polled herfs pedigree you seem to find a horned bull. JHH

Thanks.

I have been surprised in the last two months at the demand I have witnessed for horned Hereford bulls. I sold mine recently, and the gentleman who purchased him called wanting more like him....all we have left is a polled bull...This man said he and his friends were looking for horned Hereford bulls to put on Brangus cows. He wouldn't even come look at the polled bull. Another man called me last week looking for a horned Hereford to put on his Charolais cows. Again, he wouldn't consider coming to look at the polled bull.

Talked to an employee of the Tulsa Stockyards. He said horned Hereford bulls consistently sell higher to those buying for breeding purposes than polled Hereford bulls do at the yards. I didn't realize that was the case.

Certainly every Hereford pedigree traces at some point back to horned stock. I like 'em both.

 

[Aaron]

The commercial guys are starting to realize what the Horned guys knew all along. The Polled side of the bred is the 'guinea pig' of the breed. So many lines that emphasize totally different traits, and so many breeders willing to play 'scientist' with whatever little creative idea pops into their mind. Whereas the Horned side has always been about live calves, acceptable weaning weights and growth....and then using whatever methods necessary to achieve those goals. The Polled side of the breed has sunk itself with being pre-occupied in selecting for show winners. I have seen many average Horned bulls beat some of the top Polled bulls when it came weaning time...and for a lot of practical commercial producers, that's what counts. I breed both polled and horned, so I know that I can expect a much wider range of consistancy in the horned bulls, than the polled ones.

 

[certherfbeef]

The commercial guys are starting to realize what the Horned guys knew all along. The Polled side of the bred is the 'guinea pig' of the breed. So many lines that emphasize totally different traits, and so many breeders willing to play 'scientist' with whatever little creative idea pops into their mind. Whereas the Horned side has always been about live calves, acceptable weaning weights and growth....and then using whatever methods necessary to achieve those goals. The Polled side of the breed has sunk itself with being pre-occupied in selecting for show winners. I have seen many average Horned bulls beat some of the top Polled bulls when it came weaning time...and for a lot of practical commercial producers, that's what counts. I breed both polled and horned, so I know that I can expect a much wider range of consistancy in the horned bulls, than the polled ones.

Once again Aaron you speak with wisdom beyond your years.
Excellent post!

 

[Kent]

The commercial guys are starting to realize what the Horned guys knew all along. The Polled side of the bred is the 'guinea pig' of the breed. So many lines that emphasize totally different traits, and so many breeders willing to play 'scientist' with whatever little creative idea pops into their mind. Whereas the Horned side has always been about live calves, acceptable weaning weights and growth....and then using whatever methods necessary to achieve those goals. The Polled side of the breed has sunk itself with being pre-occupied in selecting for show winners. I have seen many average Horned bulls beat some of the top Polled bulls when it came weaning time...and for a lot of practical commercial producers, that's what counts. I breed both polled and horned, so I know that I can expect a much wider range of consistancy in the horned bulls, than the polled ones.

Excellent post, Aaron, and dead on in my opinion. There are some good polled cattle out there, no doubt, but the commercial man would do well to stay close to the horned genetics when buying bulls.

 

[txag]

i try to stay out of the horned/polled bashing, but when someone says the commercial breeder should stay close to horned genetics (interpreted as staying away from polled), i feel i have to speak up.

it's interesting that some previous horned breeders who now use polled genetics have polled bulls topping their sales. is it because the polled bulls have horned genetics in their background or could it be that it's the polled factor that's causing it?

i also find it funny that almost every other breed (except some of the "novelty" breeds) are breeding & promoting polled bulls. they realize that the commercial cattleman doesn't want to dehorn calves. i've had hereford breeders that run both horned & polled animals tell me that their customers prefer the polled yet they continue to run horned animals because it's what "they" like. sure, i want to breed what i like, but i also want a product that is in demand and sells.

i wish i had the Letter to the Editor from Hereford America a while back (in reply to a polled-bashing ad from a horned breeder).......it gave a listing of how many of the trait-leaders in the sire summary were polled bulls. it might surprise you.

there are good horned bulls AND good polled bulls and i think the hereford breeders would be much better served by promoting their breed (HEREFORDS) than trying to put down one side or the other.

 

[El_Putzo]

Good post Txag :clap:

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to raise, and I'm by no means and expert on the subject, but I do agree that from what I've seen, the horned genetics do seem to offer more consistency than the polled. I wouldn't really call one strain "better" than the other, only the horned bulls seem to have the prepotency to produce a more uniform calf crop. As far as being bred for the abilities to produce a live calf that weans off at a decent weight, here again I'd say you are correct in saying that the horned breed does accell in that the horned strain has been used more as a "range" type of cattle and those traits are naturally brought to the forefront in a range type management system. It is also my belief that the polled strain has not been exposed to near the amount of linebreeding that the horned strain has. And we all know that linebreeding is what makes those horned bulls so prepotent. I'd hazzard to guess you'd have a hard time finding a horned bull that doesnt contain some Line One, Cooper, or Holdens breeding in it. That being said, I prefer polled mostly for the reason's Txag stated. I believe most commercial breeders in my area don't want to have to dehorn calves.

 

[Kent]

Good post Txag :clap:

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to raise, and I'm by no means and expert on the subject, but I do agree that from what I've seen, the horned genetics do seem to offer more consistency than the polled. I wouldn't really call one strain "better" than the other, only the horned bulls seem to have the prepotency to produce a more uniform calf crop. As far as being bred for the abilities to produce a live calf that weans off at a decent weight, here again I'd say you are correct in saying that the horned breed does accell in that the horned strain has been used more as a "range" type of cattle and those traits are naturally brought to the forefront in a range type management system. It is also my belief that the polled strain has not been exposed to near the amount of linebreeding that the horned strain has. And we all know that linebreeding is what makes those horned bulls so prepotent. I'd hazzard to guess you'd have a hard time finding a horned bull that doesnt contain some Line One, Cooper, or Holdens breeding in it. That being said, I prefer polled mostly for the reason's Txag stated. I believe most commercial breeders in my area don't want to have to dehorn calves.

Good post. I use them both, horned and polled. I have some Remitall and some Feltons blood in my herd (two heavily linebred herds, by the way). The horned cattle are just more consistent, in my experience.

As far as dehorning goes, if you cross with Angus, you don't really have to worry about the horns. And if you buy horned Herf females, they have already been dehorned by someone who didn't mind doing it. Then, breed to a homo polled bull, e.g. Angus or Red Angus. With one of the breeds trying to go polled (even polled Herfs), it's a crap shoot as to whether you have a homo polled bull.

I do notice that some of the big polled bulls of today have horned sons in the showring, like Kootenay 9K and some other Remitall bulls. Of course, Feltons Domino 774 is half horned, so all of his sons have the chance to carry the horned gene. My point is that you cannot design a breed around the fact that you do not want to dehorn calves. The bulls have to sire beef calves more consistently than your competing breeds.

 

[txag]

Good post. I use them both, horned and polled. I have some Remitall and some Feltons blood in my herd (two heavily linebred herds, by the way). The horned cattle are just more consistent, in my experience.

As far as dehorning goes, if you cross with Angus, you don't really have to worry about the horns. And if you buy horned Herf females, they have already been dehorned by someone who didn't mind doing it. Then, breed to a homo polled bull, e.g. Angus or Red Angus. With one of the breeds trying to go polled (even polled Herfs), it's a crap shoot as to whether you have a homo polled bull.

I do notice that some of the big polled bulls of today have horned sons in the showring, like Kootenay 9K and some other Remitall bulls. Of course, Feltons Domino 774 is half horned, so all of his sons have the chance to carry the horned gene. My point is that you cannot design a breed around the fact that you do not want to dehorn calves. The bulls have to sire beef calves more consistently than your competing breeds.

true, you probably shouldn't design a breed around the fact that you don't have to dehorn calves, but the fact remains that there are commercial cattleman who buy their bulls on this criteria. and because not all commercial cattleman are running angus & red angus cows (or bulls on their horned herf females), there is a demand for polled hereford bulls. as for the crap shoot, there is now a dna test for the polled gene (Radar was tested homozygous polled) and i hope more breeders begin to utilize it.

 

[Kent]

true, you probably shouldn't design a breed around the fact that you don't have to dehorn calves, but the fact remains that there are commercial cattleman who buy their bulls on this criteria. and because not all commercial cattleman are running angus & red angus cows (or bulls on their horned herf females), there is a demand for polled hereford bulls. as for the crap shoot, there is now a dna test for the polled gene (Radar was tested homozygous polled) and i hope more breeders begin to utilize it.

You're certainly right there. In my area, horned bulls are a very hard sell. That's why I have the polled blood in my herd, for the few bulls that I sell. It's just hard to sell a horned bull around here, regardless of quality. Most of my cattle are Herf x Angus commercials, but I raise a few purebred Herefords for replacements and for fun. I have sold several registered, well developed horned bulls through the auction barn because I just couldn't keep them any longer. Of course, this was also during the time when nobody around my place would buy anything that wasn't black.

 

[mtnman]

Are some of the Felton polled lines good enough to use over Horned lines, and not lose selling price?

mtnman

 

[W.B.]

I agree with txag. Run horned Herefords if you like them and if you like polled Herefords run polled Herefords. There are good cattle in each case. Is one better than the other? The EPDs of the trait leaders actually favor the polleds by a bit.


I have run both on black Angus cows and I dare someone to try and tell me which calves were from the polled bulls and which were from the horned bull.


FWW: I like to have some Feltons 517 in the pedigree as those cattle are so linebred that they don't carry some of the Hereford problems.

 

[Kent]

Are some of the Felton polled lines good enough to use over Horned lines, and not lose selling price?

mtnman

Well, my answer would go something like this: Frank Felton bred one of his very best cows, B72, to OXH Domino 7002, a trait leader in 7 categories and of the Mark Donald line. The result was Feltons Domino 774, a bull that shot to the top of the Top 200 sire list for multiple traits. He was the #1 bull for multi-traits for a couple of years, until his sons and grandsons started replacing him. I guess you can tell my answer is "yes".

Some don't like the Felton cattle because they are usually frame 5-5.5 bulls with the occasional 6, but in my opinion they are money makers because they are multi-trait cattle and make excellent within-breed crosses with Mark Donald, Line One, and Victor cattle. Felton's cattle originally came from the Colorado State Univ. Prospector herd, one of the most genetically pure and highly fertile herds in the world. Hence, the large average scrotal circ. of Felton bulls.

 

[Aaron]

I agree, the Polled Herefords have many trait leaders, but are they all trait leaders for multiple traits? No. If you focus on one trait, say milk, it is real easy to get Herefords that milk like Holsteins within a few generations. But at what cost? Doability comes to mind. I think someone mentioned that the Polled and Horned guys should work together to promote the Hereford breed....which is good in theory. But the fact remains that so many commercial guys have gotten one bad Polled bull and given the whole breed a bad name, hence it is easy to understand why the horned guys want to distance themselves from that kind of association. I know one next door neighbour that only buys Alberta horned bulls for his herd because of the fact that "even the Polled linebred lines like Spidel and Four Square have to many genetic problems, and they are about the most balanced, hardy polled herefords you can get." Some horned guys use Polled bulls through AI to grab another corner of the market, but I have yet to see a Horned guy that actually runs a Polled bull in his herd, because, according to my conversations, the majority of their customers want no nonsense cattle....something that isn't attributed to the Polled cattle. Maybe horns are a bigger issue for breeders in the US. Most people up here just paste them when they tag them and saw the odd one or two they miss.

 

[El_Putzo]

I agree, the Polled Herefords have many trait leaders, but are they all trait leaders for multiple traits? No.

I can only speak for Herefords in the US, but I have to respectfully disagree. Your comments interested me so I did a little research. I went on the AHA pedigree lookup and searched for every bull that is currently ranked within the top 35% among all sires for the following traits: CED, BW, WW, YW, Milk, M&G, CEM, SC. I left off the parameters of the carcass traits as I was not getting any hits because my search was too specific. My findings were just as I was hoping. The polled and horned strains each had nearly the same amount of bulls that met my criteria, with the polled strain having a slight advantage with 15 and horned strain having 14. Now, these are not necessarily "trait leaders", but they are breed improvers in all of the above listed traits. As I said, I can't speak for those of you in Canada, but for those of us in the good ol US of A, it seems that Polled and Horned Herefords appear to be on a pretty even playing field as far genetic qualities can be measured with EPDs.

 

[Brandonm2]

I have yet to see a Horned guy that actually runs a Polled bull in his herd, because, according to my conversations, the majority of their customers want no nonsense cattle....something that isn't attributed to the Polled cattle.

I agree that polled Hereford breeders use more horned Hereford bulls than vice versa; but it is probably because Polled is a dominant gene over the horn gene. A horned Herford breeder that used a polled bull to any heavy degree would VERY quickly become a Polled Hereford breeder. I am sure that many Horned Herf breeders would agree with you; but it would NEVER be practical for a Horned Hereford breeder to use a Polled bull (particularly a Homozygous polled bull), unless he was switching to polled cattle. A Polled Hereford breeder on the other hand can use any horned sire he fancied and have few (if any) horns.

 

[W.B.]

Aarron: There are quite a few horned breeders here in South Dakota that are running polled bulls in there pastures. I can think of one example breeder that uses all natural service that has as many polled bulls as horned bulls. And I know of another one that was primarliy a L1 breeder that owns 3 polled herd bulls and is more than pleased with the progeny. While a lot of these herd bulls have some horned blood in the pedigree the point is they are polled and they are going to continue to gain ground.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

All the good EPDs in the world impress some of us very little if they are not backed up by the kind of consistent real world quality that is probably in a higher percentage of horned Herefords.

Having said that, I still like both, and will take either one over anything else.

Having said THAT, I am mentally kicking myself for sticking my nose in this debate, as I stand a good chance of getting it bloodied. :help:

 

[purecountry]

I can't help jumping in to this one a bit. I rec'd Remitall's catalog in the mail yesterday. I must say, they are impressive LOOKING cattle. You just don't see Herefords - HORNED OR POLLED - with that type of structure everday. Of course, I don't know how big they are, I'm guessing too big for my liking.

I wanted to ask you something Aaron - you mentioned 350lb weaning weights at 205 days, a couple pages back. If 205 day weights are 350lbs, I'd say the program needs some help. Maybe not a Remitall bull, but something, or did I misunderstand you, b/c I noticed that nobody else jumped on that. I also realize that 750lb weaning weights are questionable, but somewhere over 500 I would expect out of any kind of cow - even on range conditions. Just curious?

I almost bought a Horned Hereford bull 4 years ago to put on some of our Angus X Tarentaise cows. He looked great, but the cow he was out of looked like SPAM material. And that was a trend I noticed - I had no trouble finding good thick, fleshy bulls, I just couldn't find one that had even a decent mother cow behind him. Of course it could just have been the breeders I went to.

 

[Kent]

The Remitall cows run from 1400 to 1800 lbs. It will be interesting how much the pure Remitall calves raised in Mississippi at Grandview will weigh when mature. My guess would be to subtract about 200 lbs, so from 1200 to 1600 lbs on the cows. They are pretty big, but I don't want a herd bull out of a 1000 lb cow.

edit: Let me add that I don't want one out of a 1,600 lb cow either. 1200 is about right for me.