The New Simmental/Red Angus Association

[Red Bull Breeder]

Justa you are full off Shet.

 

[Old_man_emu]

Actually some PB Simm EPD's have been past Angus, forever -- for example >> WW, YW, CW, YG, BF, REA and yes PB Simm was lacking in other traits of economic importance, like BW, CE, Marb and Shr.

ASA was the first association to have a Sire summary, the first association to accept cattle regardless of COLOR and to realize that our future depended on a more marketable product and yes --using other breeds to improve PB Simmental was and is what it took to survive in an ever-changing environment.

You being from Australia, probably don't know of the differences of the cattle operations here in the US. Many of the operations in the US are "farmers with cattle" -- which means that they farm and have cattle on the side and are not really "cattlemen". Normally, the "farmers with cattle" group are the most uninformed group as this is not their real bread winner -- its a hobby or it is in addition to a job in town or in addition to farming.

The "farmers with cattle" group know about Monsanto and FSA programs. They shouldn't care what is going on in the Simmental and Red Angus associations and as you can see --they don't. Cattlemen they are not, but most of them do a good job farming. These folks have been on the farming dole so long that think it is normal.

Remember the old Nursery Rhyme Farmer in the dell --well since 1946 in the US it's been:
"Farmer on the Dole".

The ranchers in the US are the cattlemen -- meaning-- all they do is cattle and you can bet they use all the tools at their disposal (like EPD's) to assist them in decision making processes. I commend all of the ranchers in this country as we tend to be an independent lot, never taking monies from the fed govt, no "programs", etc.... you make it or you go to town and work.

You say that simmi EPD's have gone past black angus but are they actually directly comparable across breeds? They're not in Australia.
Umm and what of the fact that black and red simmi cattle look more like angus than PB simmi cattle because they have used ANGUS genetics to fix ANGUS traits to black and red simmi?

You didn't answer my question which was;
You say that simmi EPD's have gone past black angus but are they actually directly comparable across breeds?
The following is from simmental.org;
It is important to remember that the EPDs generated by any NCE are only directly comparable with EPDs from the same evaluation (within the same breed). Michigan State University Extension. Joel Cowley, Extension Beef Specialist,Department of Animal Science. July 22, 1998
Is this article wrong?

 

[Massey135]

None of this surprises me! If you have a look at the American cattle industry trend it has become hard to tell the difference between Black Simmis and Angus, most PB Simmis are 20% Angus anyway!

How do you come up with this percentage?? Once upon a time, maybe so, but now the angus is generally way down the list, with the exception where a producer is gunning for SimAngus. I have two SimAngus, one a heifer I'll AI in March, and a bull calf that was born in early January. Those two are the only angus listed on any paper in my book, and I doubt I'm alone. Do the black Simmi's have Angus in them? Of course they do, but not 20% in my opinion. Not arguing, just disagreeing.

While they may not have 20% blood, they express far more that 20% of the Angus traits. . Look at a picture of an Aberdeen Angus and now a picture of a Fullblood Simmental. WHich breed do the modern day pb simmys more closely resemble? Proofs in the puddin

 

[Julian]

None of this surprises me! If you have a look at the American cattle industry trend it has become hard to tell the difference between Black Simmis and Angus, most PB Simmis are 20% Angus anyway!

How do you come up with this percentage?? Once upon a time, maybe so, but now the angus is generally way down the list, with the exception where a producer is gunning for SimAngus. I have two SimAngus, one a heifer I'll AI in March, and a bull calf that was born in early January. Those two are the only angus listed on any paper in my book, and I doubt I'm alone. Do the black Simmi's have Angus in them? Of course they do, but not 20% in my opinion. Not arguing, just disagreeing.

While they may not have 20% blood, they express far more that 20% of the Angus traits. . Look at a picture of an Aberdeen Angus and now a picture of a Fullblood Simmental. WHich breed do the modern day pb simmys more closely resemble? Proofs in the puddin

No offense, Massey, but look at pictures of any of the Brittish breeds of cattle in the U.S. from the early 1970's and tell me if you think they look any different today. There may be more influence on selection pressure itself taking place in these breeds than the infusion of another breed. The change of the European cattle in the U.S. didn't just happen because of the breeding up programs. Would it also be fair to say that the Brittish breeds in the U.S. now look more like the European breeds now than they did in the early 1970's. Let's give "selection pressure" its just due.

 

[3waycross]

Thanks Julian, for pointing out what always seems to get lost in this neverending argument :tiphat: :tiphat:

 

[JustSimmental]

I don't hate BA at all -- I have PB Angus too, but as you know their numbers are old and they don't represent the numbers of today-- working off 1972 data -- is useless.

? forJ S if you hate BA so much why are you using the 701T bull (from a earlier post)He is a BA son of Predestined why not stay with the Simmis if there so great. And i have both so im not on either side, but if i disliked BA as much as you seem to id stay away from them.

 

[Julian]

J S,
What is the registration number on your Angus bull that is sired by Predestined?
Thanks, in advance, for your reply.

 

[JustSimmental]

None of this surprises me! If you have a look at the American cattle industry trend it has become hard to tell the difference between Black Simmis and Angus, most PB Simmis are 20% Angus anyway!

It is true that Angus cattle have caught up with the Euro breeds in regards to growth and weaning weights. < this is not true as BA weakness is growth

But it is only because the euro breeds have demolished all there original characteristics. if you went to Europe and witnessed real Limousins or Charolaise or Simmentals you would be SHOCKED at how different they are to the moderate deep sidded soggy made low birth weight high marbling American type euro is. don't compare apples to oranges like FB's and PB's

Unfortunately when you start chasing marbling you loose muscle there is no correlation. (big problem with the Limousin breed at the moment). when you start selecting for lower birth and moderate frame you lose growth!

The difference in the cattle in Europe is that they don't care about marbling --all the care about is amount of meat produced. In the USA, we tend to strive for a better eating experience.

In the US, we had to decrease frame scores to produce a more marketable product and to decrease the costs associated with cow maintenance. Most producers don't want cows that are in the 1800 lb category, when we can almost maintain 2 moderately framed cows for the cost of maintaining 1 "REAL SIMMENTAL". Also, most of our feedlots in the US, especially since ethanol has increased feed prices, are really looking hard at the costs associated with efficiency.

As far as when you start selecting for lower birth and moderate frame you lose growth idea this is really not true and I think you are missing the point here. Lower birth weights means that we aren't out there in the middle of the night with a pen light and calf chains or doing c-sections on cows like they do in France--- moderate frames mean that we have decreased maintenance costs associated with maintaining a brood cow on an annual basis. Another idea you are missing is that we match the type of cattle we raise with our available forages rather than trying to manipulate our forage base to accommodate a certain breed or type of cattle. (this differs regionally) I know right now your saying "ahh thats bullcrap"

the problem with EPDs is that most studs/seedstock opperations in north America are putting weaner bulls straight into feedlots stuffing them with grain for 6 months and then selling them as yearlings looking all good and plump, while they are doing this they are collecting data like WW YW etc.

This isn't true either and quite the generalization

The long term viability of feedlotting is questionable, it takes on average 3 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of beef. Chickens are 1 for 1 you can see where im going with this?

most cattle farmers are finishing there calves on grass, how does that fit with the bull they just purchased who has been on grain for 6 months?

This is also not true as most cow calf operations in the US are either selling their calves at weaning or shortly after. Some breeders are using a forage test on their bulls. Both the feed test and forage test has their merits.


I have used some of these bulls and got really disappointing results, once burnt never again. So combining Red Angus and Simmental EPDS does not surprise me at all. :banana:

 

[JustSimmental]

I don't have an Angus Bull sired by GAR Predestined

J S,
What is the registration number on your Angus bull that is sired by Predestined?
Thanks, in advance, for your reply.

 

[Julian]

I don't have an Angus Bull sired by GAR Predestined

J S,
What is the registration number on your Angus bull that is sired by Predestined?
Thanks, in advance, for your reply.

I should have asked what the registration number is of the 701T bull you have used.

 

[JustSimmental]

You didn't answer my question which was;
You say that simmi EPD's have gone past black angus but are they actually directly comparable across breeds?


The following is from simmental.org;
It is important to remember that the EPDs generated by any NCE are only directly comparable with EPDs from the same evaluation (within the same breed). Michigan State University Extension. Joel Cowley, Extension Beef Specialist,Department of Animal Science. July 22, 1998
Is this article wrong?

That data is from 1997, published in 1998 and yes it is out of date.
MARC has published the Across Breed EPD's (ABE's) now for almost a decade now. The 2012 data is not out yet but soon should be. Here is a good example for better understanding (it is working on 2011 ABE's)

Read it here and look at page 7 evaluating Simm and Hereford>> http://beef.unl.edu/c/document_libr...7-4ebc-b0c8-d557aea8f4e8&groupId=4178167&.pdf

 

[Massey135]

While they may not have 20% blood, they express far more that 20% of the Angus traits. . Look at a picture of an Aberdeen Angus and now a picture of a Fullblood Simmental. WHich breed do the modern day pb simmys more closely resemble? Proofs in the puddin

No offense, Massey, but look at pictures of any of the Brittish breeds of cattle in the U.S. from the early 1970's and tell me if you think they look any different today. There may be more influence on selection pressure itself taking place in these breeds than the infusion of another breed. The change of the European cattle in the U.S. didn't just happen because of the breeding up programs. Would it also be fair to say that the Brittish breeds in the U.S. now look more like the European breeds now than they did in the early 1970's. Let's give "selection pressure" its just due.

Sure SOME animals in some modern brit breeds look more like the continentals now than they did in the 70s but only those raising british cattle as termal sires; those trying to compete with the continentals with growth at the sake of maternal quality. There are still countless breeders out there that breed true to their breed's characteristics and the phenotype hasn't changed much if any. Wye Angus had 1300lb females then. Not one of my cows will go 1300. On the other hand, many breeders INCLUDING YOURSELF are going back to frame 3-4-5 cattle they had prior to the 70s. As Ive mentioned before on here, I have several photo albums of my grandpas herefords from the late 60s and 70s. Many of these Hereford Bulls would dwarf the type of Red Angus your breeding now so I wouldn't say cattle as a whole have made some type of drastic transformation.

I completely agree with what your saying about selection pressure. Breeders of continental purebreds( in america) are selecting the characteristics that made the british breeds so viable. There are still people who have fullblood simmis here that still closely resemble the imports from the 70s. There are also fullbloods in France that still resemble the imports from the 70s. The american pbs do not. They resemble british breeds in phenotype. I agree its the selection pressure but its the selection of british traits that have changed the phenotype.

The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.

 

[JustSimmental]

I don't have an Angus Bull sired by GAR Predestined

J S,
What is the registration number on your Angus bull that is sired by Predestined?
Thanks, in advance, for your reply.

I should have asked what the registration number is of the 701T bull you have used.

2414537

http://bullbarn.com/simmepd.asp?ID=538

 

[robert]

JS said "I don't have an Angus Bull sired by GAR Predestined"



I should have asked what the registration number is of the 701T bull you have used.

2414537

http://bullbarn.com/simmepd.asp?ID=538

bwaaaaahaaaaahaaaaaaaa......................... good call Julian!

 

[Jake]

[The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.

I want to make a point here that I don't think is often discussed. There is a big misconception as far as the math goes on % angus genetics in many of these crosses. When you constantly select for british breed traits, namely angus traits in these continentals you are actually propogating a much higher % angus traits than what the simply math of 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 blood says. The fact of the matter is that you are selecting animals that posses a much higher % of the angus genes therefore you may not be truely be breeding for instance a simmi, but something taht phenotypically and genotypically is MUCH closer to angus.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Good post Jake. :clap:

 

[Buckaroo]

Sure SOME animals in some modern brit breeds alot more than some exspecially true when loking at angus and char bulls compared alot of semen sight showing both to be 6.5 frame scor.look more like the continentals now than they did in the 70s but only those raising british cattle as termal siresagain not entirely correct look at look at sav networth,heritage,final answer and the list goes on and on and from my understanding thier calves are not just terminal only; those trying to compete with the continentals with growth at the sake of maternal quality. There are still countless breeders out there that breed true to their breed's characteristics and the phenotype hasn't changed much if any. Wye Angus had 1300lb females then.if your talking about true to breed characteristics than angus females at 1300lbs sure aint true to the breed of angus i hear talked about in the 70s not even close. Not one of my cows will go 1300. On the other hand, many breeders INCLUDING YOURSELF are going back to frame 3-4-5 cattle they had prior to the 70s. As Ive mentioned before on here, I have several photo albums of my grandpas herefords from the late 60s and 70s. Many of these Hereford Bulls would dwarf the type of Red Angus your breeding now so I wouldn't say cattle as a whole have made some type of drastic transformation.

I completely agree with what your saying about selection pressure. Breeders of continental purebreds( in america) are selecting the characteristics that made the british breeds so viable. There are still people who have fullblood simmis here that still closely resemble the imports from the 70s. There are also fullbloods in France that still resemble the imports from the 70s. The american pbs do not. They resemble british breeds in phenotype. I agree its the selection pressure but its the selection of british traits that have changed the phenotype. yes it is the selection of british traits changing phenotype not the influence of angus genetics. again i repeat yes it is the SELECTION OF BRITISH TRAITS CHANGING PHENOTYPES.
The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.again this is because the selection of certain traits not because of infusion of angus genetics to get black hide. also i say look at the phenotype of the modern day angus bulls and they are just as far from resembling their original angus phenotype as the simmi is from resembling a full blood.

 

[Baldie Maker]

[The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.

I want to make a point here that I don't think is often discussed. There is a big misconception as far as the math goes on % angus genetics in many of these crosses. When you constantly select for british breed traits, namely angus traits in these continentals you are actually propogating a much higher % angus traits than what the simply math of 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 blood says. The fact of the matter is that you are selecting animals that posses a much higher % of the angus genes therefore you may not be truely be breeding for instance a simmi, but something taht phenotypically and genotypically is MUCH closer to angus.

I believe with DNA technology the jersey association has a test (50K?) that allows them to check the percentage jersey versus what they should be on paper via pedigree.

 

[redcowsrule33]

[The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.

I want to make a point here that I don't think is often discussed. There is a big misconception as far as the math goes on % angus genetics in many of these crosses. When you constantly select for british breed traits, namely angus traits in these continentals you are actually propogating a much higher % angus traits than what the simply math of 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 blood says. The fact of the matter is that you are selecting animals that posses a much higher % of the angus genes therefore you may not be truely be breeding for instance a simmi, but something taht phenotypically and genotypically is MUCH closer to angus.

:nod: So, would this negatively affect the hybrid vigor that is advertised so heavily when crossed back on angus? I think so.

 

[SirLoin]

My father can beat up your father.......

[email protected] the majority of posters whining about this thread :lol: :lol: :lol: