Starting from Scratch

[preston39]

I am new at this. I do not have land yet but I am looking at approximately 100 acres. Is there any Govt. programs that will help me get started with the purchase of the land and live stock? This is what I was born to do.

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rancher4life,

As suggested there are several programs available for start-up if you do not have the means. If you should be a woman(gender minority) there are additional programs available. Visit NOW and ask some questions. Do a search and also communicate with your US represenative office for information on the Small Business and other programs offered.

The key here is to qualify and don't give up on exploring the many opportunities.

 

[MoGal]

Rancher4life: I'm 45 and my goal is to have 50 cows by the time I'm 50. Nothing wrong with having goals. I went to AI school last month and one of the instructors said that anyone who had less than 100 cows should get out of the business so the ranchers could get better prices.... well I said to him, "Not everyone can inherit 500 acres nor is everyone a dr or lawyer".
Some of these big ranchers forget that if they hadn't inherited money or land they wouldn't be as big as they are and if they did it on their own they had a job that paid more than the average worker gets paid. Missouri ranks 2nd in the nation in beef production and I can assure you its not from ranchers who have more than 300 head... no sir its from the little people that all this beef is coming from.

Besides I'd rather see an American get grants/loans than a foreigner (anybody ever wonder why all these darn foreigners own motels--- free grants up to $300,000 to start/own a business). They had it on the news this morning that illegal aliens can get medicaid/medical (because they don't have to prove they are american born citizens in 47 states) while the average american living in substandard conditions cannot get these services. Something is wrong with this picture. But then that's another topic on its own.

So don't let the negative ones get to ya.... theres been some good links/advice given here. Go for it and best of luck to you.

 

[Brandonm2]

I went to AI school last month and one of the instructors said that anyone who had less than 100 cows should get out of the business so the ranchers could get better prices....

He is an idiot. If what he wanted happened ~3/4 of the seedstock business would shut down. Most make more money selling a bull every two years and a couple of 5 year old cows and a show heifer every other year to guys with less than 30 cows than they do selling herd bulls to big ranches which can at any moment keep their best half dozen calves intact and eliminate their seedstock costs completely. I also would like to see how many large ranches AI. A little guy with 20 cows behind his house can heat check while he eats his breakfast and sitting out on his back porch while his wife prepares his dinner. Somebody with 240 cows spread out over a 100-300 acre field either has to synchronize (more expense) or spend most of the day looking at cows and seperating out the 18 who are in heat today. I have no way of knowing but I would guess that those little 2-90 cow guys are the buyers of ~half of the beef semen sold and probably buy at least 2/3s of the AI company's beef lineup sires. I would have bit my tounge and said nothing to him directly; but I would have written down his words and written a scathing letter about him to every address or email address I could find of anyone in his company up to and including the CEO. His butt would be chewed 10 ways from sunday, if they just didn't get mad and fire him outright for being completely stupid. Also the little guys do not depress that price of beef NEARLY as much as the beef in Brazil, Argentina, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc that enters the export market. If we lost all our little guys, in the long run we would lose most of our global market share and probably 75% of our genetic diversity.

 

[MoGal]

Well, Brandon I guess that is the difference between you and I.
I'm not into raising cane... he stated his opinion, I stated mine. Most people have less than 50 cows and that is the majority of beef raisers. The school is a very fine school and I thoroughly enjoyed myself and learned a lot.

 

[dun]

Well, Brandon I guess that is the difference between you and I.
I'm not into raising cane... he stated his opinion, I stated mine. Most people have less than 50 cows and that is the majority of beef raisers. The school is a very fine school and I thoroughly enjoyed myself and learned a lot.

Which AI school?

dun

 

[MikeC]

Brandon, I agree with you on some points in your post but have to say this:

While at a seminar at the Alabama BCIA this past January I was talking to a researcher who specializes in cattle operation info. He assured me that the cattle operations below 25 head of mama cows were what is wrong with the beef industry today. INCONSISTENCY.

He went on to say that the smaller producers don't have proper equipment, do not buy superior bulls, and do not feed their cattle adequately. Among other shortcomings, simply because they cannot justify it for lack of farm income.

He went on to say that a Mandatory ID system will be the best thing to happen in the cattle business because it will weed out the less serious producers.

This does not include ALL small cattle endeavors, just the smaller ones as a whole.

 

[Brandonm2]

Oh I know there are a lot of people who have cows just to have cows and they don't take genetic selection serious. There are a lot of people out there who would have MORE money in their pocket IF they went out of the cattle business; but there are a LOT of cattle (particularly in Alabama) in herds of less than 25 head (I think 22 Mama cows is the state average herd size) and SOME have excellent cattle. I also see a lot of pine forests fenced off with 10 half starved cows on 15 acres that are lucky to wean 3 calves a year at 285 pounds a calf. Go to any stockyard in Alabama in September to November and 15-20% of the calves are SCARY looking. I actually once (a couple of years ago) saw 20 really FAT 325 pound red angus frame score ~1 calves go through the barn (I was waiting for my check). I don't know where he buys his bulls. My only guess is that he keeps a calf back. Of course his price from the order buyers was laughable; BUT he DID get paid.

I don't think we are going to lose ANY of these people or their mismanaged herds. If I ran a sale barn I would assign them all a premises ID and tag the calves myself (for an additional fee). If the sale barns won't do it, then I think some enterprising person COULD make a lot of money buying these calves off the farm and adding them to his premises ID. Load em haul em tag em sell em and make $100++ a calf. You could sell a thousand head a year easily and not own a mama cow (this actually sounds like such easy money that I MIGHT do it).

 

[dun]

Brandon, I agree with you on some points in your post but have to say this:

While at a seminar at the Alabama BCIA this past January I was talking to a researcher who specializes in cattle operation info. He assured me that the cattle operations below 25 head of mama cows were what is wrong with the beef industry today. INCONSISTENCY.

He went on to say that the smaller producers don't have proper equipment, do not buy superior bulls, and do not feed their cattle adequately. Among other shortcomings, simply because they cannot justify it for lack of farm income.

He went on to say that a Mandatory ID system will be the best thing to happen in the cattle business because it will weed out the less serious producers.

This does not include ALL small cattle endeavors, just the smaller ones as a whole.

In this area there a re a lot of small operations, 10-20 cows and a number of 200-300 head operations. Other then the seed stock producers, I don;t see many of the larger producers doing any better with genetics, managment or marketing then the smaller producers. The 2-3 cow folks are generally just raising beef for their familys so they don;t have much of an impact on the marketing chain, and most of them sell out when the grass burns off or the going gets tough. Generally their crappy cattle end up in the kill pens and go to big macs and dinty moore as low grades anyway.
Although consistency is touted as the big deal in marketing, feedlots buying thousands of head at a time can pretty well build pens of similar aniamls and market them the same. They may not make the profit that they would on better quality animals, but you can bet they're finding a market and making money.

dun

 

[MikeC]

But are these people helping the beef industry? The inconsistency of these calves is horrible. The ones who supply good beef are propping up the price for those who supply the junk.

 

[dun]

But are these people helping the beef industry? The inconsistency of these calves is horrible. The ones who supply good beef are propping up the price for those who supply the junk.

The ones supplying the junk aren't getting paid worth squat for their calves so in a way it may be propping up the price for the good cattle.

dun

 

[Crowderfarms]

But are these people helping the beef industry? The inconsistency of these calves is horrible. The ones who supply good beef are propping up the price for those who supply the junk.

The ones supplying the junk aren't getting paid worth squat for their calves so in a way it may be propping up the price for the good cattle.

dun

Good quality cattle bring the good money. Poor cattle well, go figure.

 

[Brandonm2]

But are these people helping the beef industry? The inconsistency of these calves is horrible. The ones who supply good beef are propping up the price for those who supply the junk.

Go to the sale barn. Somebody is making money off of those calves. There are a lot of operators who go to the sale barns looking for 220 to 375 pound calves to deworm and put on grass. They will bring them back in 90-150 days and somebody will fill space in the feedlot with them. Usually the price per pound on a mismanaged brahman/holstein/longhorn 270 pound fuzzy calf is more than that of a 660 pound Angus-Hereford calf who is ready for a feedlot. Why do you think I can buy a big platter of beef fajitas for $6.50 or less at lunch at most of the Mex restarants in Alabama when beef prices are through the roof?? That probably did not come from Choice Yield Grade 2s. It is not all little guys either. I knew a guy in Marengo county who ranched full time. He and his son had (may still have though he had cancer and was trying to sell the ranch) about 450 mama cows of every stripe and breed cross imaginable...all pure stockyard garbage they bought as cheap ~yearling heifers. They did use VERY good bulls from some of our best Alabama seedstock breeders(Hereford, Charolais, and Angus); but they pushed those mature cows HARD on grass alone and weaned at ~90-120 days. He told me they got maximum price per pound below 300 pounds and their cows would breed back once the calves were pulled off the cows (and this guy had been doing this for decades). The AMerican consumer is buying the beef. Some of it goes to high dollar restaraunts, some of it goes to the meat counters, some of it goes to the Western Sizzlin all you can eat steak buffet, some of it goes into canned tamales or frozen burger patties. Wal-Mart's store brand beef hot dogs are just $2.00. If all the "bad" cattle were butchered tomorrow we would just import more from range herds in Brazil, Argentina, Australia, etc. If somebody can make money or have fun raising 250 pound nondescript cattle and the public will buy it...I am all for it.

 

[MikeC]

But are these people helping the beef industry? The inconsistency of these calves is horrible. The ones who supply good beef are propping up the price for those who supply the junk.

The ones supplying the junk aren't getting paid worth squat for their calves so in a way it may be propping up the price for the good cattle.

dun

Good quality cattle bring the good money. Poor cattle well, go figure.

When a buyer at the sale barn buys calves he has no idea what the quality grades will be or what the yield grades will be. He pays what he thinks he can make money on.

If you were to break all these calf prices out, some were bought at too high a price and some were bought at a cheap price. If we could rid the world of the cheap cattle that some take a chance on, the price for all cattle would go up because the gamble wouldn't be as high.

That's what I mean by good cattle propping up the poor ones.

 

[Brandonm2]

When a buyer at the sale barn buys calves he has no idea what the quality grades will be or what the yield grades will be. He pays what he thinks he can make money on.

If you were to break all these calf prices out, some were bought at too high a price and some were bought at a cheap price. If we could rid the world of the cheap cattle that some take a chance on, the price for all cattle would go up because the gamble wouldn't be as high.

That's what I mean by good cattle propping up the poor ones.

Don't bet on it. The order buyers are very good at filling their orders (and they have orders for many different kinds of cattle). Right now slaughter plants are shutting down because we can not get enough cattle of any quality to keep the lines going. A feedlot guy might like to feed ONLY cattle which will finish out at as Choice YG2s; but at the end of the day he has to have cattle to fill his feedlot. When you go to the big feedlots you see GREAT cattle in a pen, good cattle in their pens, ugly cattle in their pens, the early maturing frame score 2s YG4s in their pen, dairy steers in their pen. The feedlot knew what they were going to do (within a guess range)and sorted them accordingly. They paid more for the good stuff and less for the bad stuff; but hopefully they made money on all the stuff that they bought. If you cull out the bottom 25% of the calf producers all you have done is emptied 25% of our feedlot pens and forced the bottom 25% of our slaughter houses and meat processors out of the business. Once that happens and everything gets sorted out, less plant will be buying from less feedlots which will be buying less calves; probably at the same price they are now paying for the calves.

 

[Bama]

Gotta say I agree with Brandon. The poor quality cattle sell because their is a market. If all cattle were top grade we would be importing a lot more cattle. Its a supply demand type thing. As long as there is a demand someone has to supply them. Those buyers know what they are looking at. Even the "hamburger" cows have a place in the food chain. Its not in the fancy resturants but it is part of the demand also. If all cattle were top choice think about how much we would be paying for hamburger meat.

 

[MikeC]

I fail to see the point that bad cattle/beef is needed in the market. If the poor grading, tough beef and low yielding cattle were taken off the market someone would step up and fill the demand with good beef.

Our competition is chicken and pork. If there's one thing I can say for them, it's consistent. Not particularly good, but consistent. That's one place they have the advantage over us.

 

[Brandonm2]

I fail to see the point that bad cattle/beef is needed in the market. If the poor grading, tough beef and low yielding cattle were taken off the market someone would step up and fill the demand with good beef.

Yes it is. Most of the beef we import is unfinished. It is generally range stuff that the whole carcass was chopped into lean trimmings. The processors take lean trimmings (either from our culls or Australia's) and mix it with the fat trimmings off of our choice steers and it becomes most of the burger we eat at the burger chains. This is why the packers and processors are opposing country of origin labeling (COOL). They know that there could be ~500 cows from two or three or four different countries in every 5 lb chub of ground beef sold and they certainly don't want the consumer to know that. If we got rid of all our own burger meat cattle, I don't believe that we would suddenly start grinding up Choice YG2 steers for SAM's clubs' burger patties.

 

[Sean H.]

I'm new here, and I've read through this thread, which is sort of close to the questions I have. My apologies to everyone if this has all been covered before. And, reading the thread, I have some trepidation in posting, as perhaps this question will not be really well received. May apologies again, if so.

Anyhow, here's my situation.

I've wanted to raise cattle all my life. I come from a family that had this background, but because of some odd circumstances, my father's generation was out of it. He always wanted back in, but circumstances prevented it, or perhaps he just figured that's the way the cards had been dealt. Not having any land, and not owning any cattle either, I didn't start out in this until I was probably 32 or so. I'm now 42. I own 50 head of cattle, but I have a loan on half of them. I have my cattle on a relatives place, and I do not own any land myself. I'm also married and have two kids. I have one of those jobs that elsewhere people think of as a really good job, but here it's just a somewhat better than average job, with huge time commitments.

My original idea here was to start building a heard up, and hope that I could make a go of it on my own, with cattle. In the decade I've been trying this, I'd guess that the value of land has tripled, due to people coming in and buying land to retire on. At the rate I'm presently going, I can't seeing having enough cattle to make it on and ever being able to buy a place of my own.

I see in this thread people mentioning the value of saving, and the value of not having a loan. I agree with those things. But it seems elsewhere people are able to eventually make a break into the business and make a go of it. Or are they? Is everyone here working two jobs, with a town job just to keep in agriculture. Am I missing something? Is there some good strategy to be able to buy a place and make it that just isn't occurring to me?

 

[SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE]

It is never easy,and it takes time.Land is not getting any cheaper,buy land even if you have to borrow the money,as long as you can make the payments. Building your farm/ranch will be a good tax break for you while you are growing. You are still young enough to do it and leave something for your kids to build on.May want to scale back on your herd at first.Put everything you make plus the money you get back on taxes into the farm to pay off the land and equipment. Our currency is not worth much nowadays,and it will reach a point where it is worthless. Tangibles is where you should put your hard earned money,something that will help feed you and your family when things get tough (things are rough now,but will get worse). ;-) :cboy:

 

[Susie David]

Borrowing $$$ for cows...IMO that's a good way to watch your money turn into manure, unless you know for certain that you have a strong and steady market for your cattle and have your break-even point established and are raking in the dough. Not owning the land...hope that you have iron-clad agreements with your relatives, a good way to create hard feelings over simple things, like down fences and lost cows, not to mention dead animals. A good lease in in order.
Pay off your loan as quickly as you can. Do you have a solid business plan in place and your direction established, if so continue to march and the best of luck to you. DMC