Some thoughts on Certified Angus Beef

[Katpau]

Caustic Bruno
What you are saying is that CAB has not hurt your market. That is good. Good cattle bring a good price no matter the color. I think too many people use CAB as an excuse when they get less than others for their cattle.

You also mentioned in a prior post that cattle only need to be 51% black. I don't know how that rumor started, but it is incorrect.
The rule is;
"Cattle must have a predominantly black hide, with no other color behind the shoulder, above the flanks, or breaking the midline, excluding the tail.", so if a Holstein had the muscling of a beef breed and no white anywhere but her head and tail, she would qualify to be judged for CAB. She would then need to meet all of the quality standards, and if she passed and a packer puts the CAB label on the meat, then the AAA through CAB gets $2 per pound. It seems to me like a good thing for CAB.

 

[Warren Allison]

If people really believe that Angus are more pure than other breeds they are very likely mistaken.
Like @Caustic Burno said, you don't get a 2000# animal from 1000# animals overnight without bringing in other breeds that are capable of doing that.
It's not just Angus, the same can be said of Herefords.

I am sure of that. I saw Chi-Angus for the 1st time in 1975 at UGA. When was it..the 80's...when the Angus went to a 2000# animal from 1000# animals overnight? I am sure there were some Chi-Angus registered as Angus back then. But still, there is a lot more Angus in the Continental breeds that "went black", than there is Chianina blood in Angus today.

It's true that CAB doesn't promote Simmentals or anything else, but because those breeds have a lot of black animals it's only logical to think that a significant amount of CAB is genetically as much as half or more Simmental, Hereford, and others. Those Hereford crossed BWF calves should easily make CAB. Those Simmental and SimAngus calves will make CAB too with many being solid black and BWF.

True. But the wonderful thing is, CAB still gets paid a 2% per pound commission on CAB certified carcasses. I love it! The developers of these programs for certified Angus were brilliant!

Pretty sure a lot of Brangus and Brangus cross calves make CAB too, but they wouldn't admit much to that either.

Actually,. most all do make CAB. A Brangus calf will bring more than a comparable Braford, Gert, BM or black Simbrah will . Brangus breeders not only admit it, but MARKET the fact that Brangus and Brangus cross will qualify for CAB. Only thing that wouldn't , would be possibly an an F1 Br x Ang ( or other black cow) that had a neck hump exceeding 2 inches in height.

The CAB started as a way to market Angus bulls, because at the time Angus could not compete with the popular continental breeds that brought more growth. They jumped in the frame race too, and when it came to a screeching halt there were enough Angus left of moderate size that they were able to benefit from the new trend at the time of moderate framed cattle.
By now people have figured out that other breed bulls crossed on Angus based cows will have more growthy calves than straight bred Angus, hence why Simmentals, Hereford, Brangus bulls are in demand now.

That was the intent of the CAB, and the marketing strategy of AAA. To get people with other kinds of cows, to use Angus bulls. And for people to buy Angus cows to breed other-breed bulls to.; It was the not-so-bright breeders of the other breeds, that have turned them into Angus crosses. and diluted the genetics that made their breeds great. A purebred 70's Simmental cow..Fleckvieh..crossed with an Angus bull would yield a far superior calf...tons more hybrid vigor, than the "pure" black Simms of today.

CB is also right in that there isn't enough Angus to fill those orders for "Angus" beef. If it was only Angus bulls being used and it really was such a good deal then Angus bulls would still be averaging much higher prices than other breeds.

It doesn't matter that there aren't enough Angus to fill the orders ,because there are plenty of black cattle to do so. And, CAB makes the same amount of money on a carcass with almost NO Angus blood in it.

I've heard several Angus breeders the last few years lamenting that bull sales were slow and that had there were too many of them to move. No doubt a lot of people use Angus bulls and they pay high prices for many of them, but in this area comparison wise, Simmentals and Herefords, are sold pretty fast and comparable or higher priced on average.
Again understand I'm not bashing Angus or Angus breeders just calling out the propaganda that we've been hearing for years about how superior Angus CAB is and how it's the savior of the cattle industry etc.
It's not the argument we need to be having. We need to be focused on taking back the beef industry, but obviously sone people are content to be told they are getting a bit of a premium for their cattle. Kind of like being lost in the woods and looking for trees. It's easy to find a tree, and that takes up time and may give a sense of accomplishment but it does nothing to help get out of the woods.

They aren't being told they are getting a premium, they are seeing it on their sale barn checks. Why in the world would anyone want this premium to stop? Even if you are a person that...for some reason.... hates a black cow, why would anyone begrudge someone else getting paid a little more for their calves?

 

[Warren Allison]

Caustic Bruno
What you are saying is that CAB has not hurt your market. That is good. Good cattle bring a good price no matter the color. I think too many people use CAB as an excuse when they get less than others for their cattle.

You also mentioned in a prior post that cattle only need to be 51% black. I don't know how that rumor started, but it is incorrect.
The rule is;
"Cattle must have a predominantly black hide, with no other color behind the shoulder, above the flanks, or breaking the midline, excluding the tail.", so if a Holstein had the muscling of a beef breed and no white anywhere but her head and tail, she would qualify to be judged for CAB. She would then need to meet all of the quality standards, and if she passed and a packer puts the CAB label on the meat, then the AAA through CAB gets $2 per pound. It seems to me like a good thing for CAB.

2 cents per pound, but that is still millions of dollars a year. There are some pretty dense people on here, that must think if there was no CAB, they would get paid that premium for ANY color cow. LOL

 

[Katpau]

It is obvious that the "black" qualification was put in back in 1978 because this program was originally funded by the American Angus Association. I see nothing wrong with that. The fact that it has caused many other breeds to go black, means it was successful beyond anyone's expectations. I don't know why people complain about CAB. CAB doesn't make anyone pay more for a black calf. That is the choice of the buyer. I assume buyers must find those calves more profitable, perhaps because of the marketing provided by CAB. Or perhaps they find those calves are more likely to grow and grade better. CAB is a business, and an obviously profitable one. Your choice is to find a way to successfully market what you have or to join an already successful program.

Perhaps some day there will be a program with all of the requirements except color, that could be equally successful. I'm afraid most meat from the cattle of the people complaining about CAB, would not qualify for that program either. I have a straight Angus herd, but I don't know that my cattle would qualify on the rail. I have found it too difficult to find many of the traits I desire in Angus cattle when I look at bulls with a high marbling EPD. That is one of the things I like about the Angus breed. There is a great amount of diversity within the breed just because of the number of different breeders. There is something for almost everyone. (as long as you are okay with solid black)

 

[Warren Allison]

BS I have hauled1/4 Jersey 1/4 Brahman 1/2 Angus and beat everything in the salebarn that day in that weight class.
They not supposed to have Brahman either but the buyers fight over mine when the come in. The ask for their numbers.
You can BS the city folks not the cattlemen.
View attachment 31464

Never said that they wouldn't beat the price of everything else that day. But, when they go to slaughter, they won't get marked CAB. Doesn't matter of the order buyers you sold to thought they would or not. I can GUARANTEE that NONE of the 100-120 Brangus x Corr calves we sold each year, ever made CAB status after their carcasses were sent to be graded. And I couldn't care less, as long as the people who bought them THOUGHT they might, and paid the same as they did for other black calves that day. There is no rule saying that Brahma blood disqualifies a carcass for CAB...just can't have over a 2 inch high neck hump. And I am sure your 1/4 Brahmas didn't. That's why the buyers gave top dollar for them. Are you saying you wished they didn't bring a CAB premium?!!

 

[Ky hills]

There was some hanky panky in the Hereford association as well heck they green papered certain lines. The yellow Hereford disappeared along with the feather necks and goggle eyes popped up overnight as well. American Chars are just hybrid Brimmer they supposedly breed it all out. DNA doesn't work that way once it's in the woodpile it's almost impossible to get it out. You might get down to a low percentage but it's still there.
"
The first Charolais came into the United States from Mexico in 1934. From that beginning, the breed grew rapidly. Wherever they were shown, the big white cattle commanded instant attention. Cattlemen admired both Charolais bulls and females for their muscling, correctness and size. They were also very impressed with their calves. An ever-expanding demand for purebred Charolais seedstock kept an active market for both bulls and females. Livestock producers across the country were searching for animals who would improve their profit picture.

In the late 1940s and early 1950s the breeders established the American Charbray Breeders Association and the American Charolais Breeders Association, both of which limited pedigrees to a blend of Charolais and Brahman breeding. Producers who were utilizing other beef breed cows to produce Charolais by compounding Charolais blood through successive generations, formed the International Charolais Association. In 1957, the American and International Associations merged into today's American-International Charolais Association (AICA). In 1964, the Pan-American Charolais Association, whose registrations were based on performance rather than genetic content, merged into the AICA. And three years later, the American Charbray Breeders Association merged with the AICA, bringing all Charolais-based breeds in the United States under the fold of a single breed registry.

With the limited availability of pure Charolais during the early years, American breeders established a five-generation "breeding-up" program to expand the breed. This program involved using purebred Charolais bulls for five consecutive generations to produce a 31/32 Charolais animal. Geneticists say this percentage is the equivalent of a purebred, containing only 3% of the genetic material from the foundation breed.

Charolais is a naturally horned beef animal, but through the breeding-up program, using other breeds carrying the polled gene, polled Charolais emerged. Some of the breed's strongest herds and leading breeders specialize in the production of high-performing polled Charolais."

I would love to see the USDA pull CAB meat from different counters across the country and DNA test it.

Yes, I had a Hereford bull from registered parents that looked a lot like a throwback to the old red and white Simmentals. When bred to certain other Hereford cows the calves would sometimes have some very unique white patterns not typical of Herefords.
I've always heard Hereford breeders question how they got polled that quick too, seems like logic would say it it would be a long process of finding and putting together a lot of cattle with the polled mutation. Would be a lot faster to infuse some Red Poll or some other red and polled breed.

As for Charolais being bred up from Brahmans I believe that too. I had a registered Charolais cow that showed clear BrahmanX characteristics. Her ears were very tell tale and also she had the loose floppy navel. Her nose was dark colored as well. Most all of the Charolais had big ears, and the dark noses were fairly common among registered animals.

 

[Ky hills]

I am sure of that. I saw Chi-Angus for the 1st time in 1975 at UGA. When was it..the 80's...when the Angus went to a 2000# animal from 1000# animals overnight? I am sure there wre some Chi-Angus registered as Angus back then. But still, there is a lot more Angus in the Continental breeds that "went black", than there is Chianina blood in agus today.

True. But the wonderful thing is, CAB still gets paid a 2% per pound commission on CAB certified carcasses. I love it! The developers of these programs for certified Angus were brilliant!


Actually,. most all do make CAB. A Brangus calf will bring more than a comparable Braford, Gert, BM or black Simbrah will . Brangus breeders not only admit it, but MARKET the fact that Brangus and Brangus cross will qualify for CAB. Only thing that wouldn't , would be possibly an an F1 Br x Ang ( or other black cow) that had a neck hump exceedig 2 inches in height.


That was the intent of the CAB, and the marketing strategy of AAA. To get people with other kinds of cows, to use Angus bulls. And for people to buy Angus cows to breed other-breed bulls to.; It was the not-so-bright breeders of the other breeds, that have turned them into Angus crosses. and diluted the genetics that made their breeds great. A purebred 70's Simmental cow..Fleckvieh..crossed with an Angus bull would yield a far superior calf...tons more hybrid vigor, than the "pure" black Simms of today.

It doesn't matter that there aren't enough angus to fill the orders ,because there are plenty of black cattle to do so. And, CAB makes the same amount of money on a carcass with almost NO Angus blood in it.


They aren't being told they are getting a premium, they are seeing it on their sale barn checks. Why in the world would anyone want this premium to stop? Even if you are a person that...for some reason.... hates a black cow, why would anyone begrudge someone else getting paid a little more for their calves?

You can call it a premium if you want, however, I have read the markets reports put out by the state and they will sometimes actually write in their summary the word "dock or docked"usually in reference to fleshy, unweaned or "off color calves".

Yes, I believe that Chianinas were used in Angus and a lot of other breeds back then. Have also heard rumors of Holstein in Angus as well.
I think the difference between Angus with some Chianina in the woodpile and the black purebred continental breeds is that it is common today to breed for Sim Angus, Balancers, Lim Flex and so the Angus component in those crosses is current. There are black purebred Simmentals and others that genetically are all Simmental just the same as there are Angus that have other things but are by now genetically speaking pure Angus.
That just means that enough generations have passed to statistically take out the percentage, doesn't mean that the influence isn't still there or that it has been completely bred out.
Black Simmentals of today look different than the old red and white spotted ones in more ways than just color.
Angus of today look drastically different than they did years ago too,
The last registered Angus bull I bought came from a big local registered Angus outfit. When I saw the group of bulls, I couldn't believe what I was looking at, some of them looked like if I didn't know they were registered Angus I would have sworn they were some kind of black crossbreed.

 

[Travlr]

2 cents per pound, but that is still millions of dollars a year. There are some pretty dense people on here, that must think if there was no CAB, they would get paid that premium for ANY color cow. LOL

I don't need to explain this to you because you're a smart guy... and I'm sure you know how the "premium" is essentially a discount depending on what side of the color gradient you are. You know this. You're just being intentionally obtuse... unless you aren't as smart as I think you are.

And as said before... it makes you look like a shill.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

My muscles are too tight to go along with these mental gymnastics.

Try stretches before reading.

 

[Warren Allison]

The last registered Angus bull I bought came from a big local registered Angus outfit. When I saw the group of bulls, I couldn't believe what I was looking at, some of them looked like if I didn't know they were registered Angus I would have sworn they were some kind of black crossbreed.

Yep. I have seen pics of reg Angus bulls that I would have sworn were Brangus. Or at least Ultrablacks!

 

[Dave]

I always find these CAB discussions somewhat comical. Here there is very little or no difference the calf prices based on color. There are certain breeds that sell cheaper. And I know from talking to buyers that they just simply don't preform as well in the feedlot or on the rail. Not that all the calves from one of those breeds won't preform well. But a high enough percentage don't which drives the market for that breed down. I have sat at a sale where my neighbor sold 200+ Char cross calves and seen them top the market in every class. Last fall my steer calves out of one and done cows which were every color of the rainbow topped the market in 2 of the 3 classes they were sorted. The one calf which didn't sell at the top of the market that day was an obvious longhorn cross which is one of those breeds buyer avoid.
On the flip side of that coin one day I was sitting beside a buyer who buys a lot of feeders. He bought a single group of 50 or so calves. There was 2 reds in the group. He had them sorted off. I asked him what was wrong with those two calves. He said not a darn thing. If he were buying them for himself he would have left them in. But the man he bought them for want all black hides. So some of that will happen. However he didn't top the market with the price he paid and those sorted off reds sold for one bid less than he paid for the blacks.

 

[Ky hills]

It is obvious that the "black" qualification was put in back in 1978 because this program was originally funded by the American Angus Association. I see nothing wrong with that. The fact that it has caused many other breeds to go black, means it was successful beyond anyone's expectations. I don't know why people complain about CAB. CAB doesn't make anyone pay more for a black calf. That is the choice of the buyer. I assume buyers must find those calves more profitable, perhaps because of the marketing provided by CAB. Or perhaps they find those calves are more likely to grow and grade better. CAB is a business, and an obviously profitable one. Your choice is to find a way to successfully market what you have or to join an already successful program.

Perhaps some day there will be a program with all of the requirements except color, that could be equally successful. I'm afraid most meat from the cattle of the people complaining about CAB, would not qualify for that program either. I have a straight Angus herd, but I don't know that my cattle would qualify on the rail. I have found it too difficult to find many of the traits I desire in Angus cattle when I look at bulls with a high marbling EPD. That is one of the things I like about the Angus breed. There is a great amount of diversity within the breed just because of the number of different breeders. There is something for almost everyone. (as long as you are okay with solid black)

I can only speak for what I saw, I was a small child in 1978. Back then and into the early 80's, here most cattle were Angus and Herefords on a rare occasion a remnant of a shorthorn cross. Herefords were falling out of favor already at that point. By the mid 80's red and white spotted Simmentals and Charolais were getting popular. Charolais soon passed up the Simmentals then Limousins came along. Angus took a backseat and Herefords were already all but out of the picture through the late 89's - early 90's. Then in the mid to late 90's as a result of the crash and burn of the frame race the new word of the day was moderate framed and as you stated there were enough Angus that hadn't gotten so extremely tall that they almost overnight took over. There I was a young man and had invested a lot money and time in a herd of registered Charolais.
I was having cows AI bred to the top Charolais bulls in the country mostly from one of the top Charolais programs in the US at the time, Lindskov/Theil Ranch. I had been selling bulls and heifers for $1000, and all of a sudden my market as well as my friends in the breed markets had dried up. The last group of bulls I had many from $50,000-$75,000 AI bulls were sold at commercial steer prices. I sold the heifers at the stockyards all for under $300 per head as yearlings.
The next bull I bought was a registered Angus and I can assure you I have never made enough of a premium to compensate for the loss.
So that's why I complain about CAB, as it all came about in a perfect storm.
Even so I became a believer in Angus.
Angus can be good cattle, they do a lot of things right, I have said that often.
I agree with you in that I do not like the current look of a lot of Angus and other breeds too for that matter.
I know that there are a lot of variation throughout the Angus world because there are so many, but I have found at least locally that pretty much every Angus breeder is essentially just a multiplier for the big breeders and AI companies and all have a similar combination of genetics.

As far as cattle grading for CAB, it's choice or higher the exact same as any other choice grade. Obviously a select grade would not be CAB or any other USDA choice grade.
For the record, I have bought quite a bit of CAB, before we started having our own beef processed. We've finished out Angus, Herefords,BWF and RWF crosses , and they must not be too poor of quality cause it sure is good, and we have had repeat customers for several years.
My thinking is that Angus are known for marbling, therefor a very high percentage of them will no doubt grade at least choice. I think the new emphasis on carcass breeding is geared toward grading prime.
It is my belief that about any beef breed or cross and especially British breeds will grade choice at a decent percentage.
Continentals like Simmentals and Charolais will also grade choice a good percentage of the time as well.

 

[Travlr]

I can only speak for what I saw, I was a small child in 1978. Back then and into the early 80's, here most cattle were Angus and Herefords on a rare occasion a remnant of a shorthorn cross. Herefords were falling out of favor already at that point. By the mid 80's red and white spotted Simmentals and Charolais were getting popular. Charolais soon passed up the Simmentals then Limousins came along. Angus took a backseat and Herefords were already all but out of the picture through the late 89's - early 90's. Then in the mid to late 90's as a result of the crash and burn of the frame race the new word of the day was moderate framed and as you stated there were enough Angus that hadn't gotten so extremely tall that they almost overnight took over. There I was a young man and had invested a lot money and time in a herd of registered Charolais.
I was having cows AI bred to the top Charolais bulls in the country mostly from one of the top Charolais programs in the US at the time, Lindskov/Theil Ranch. I had been selling bulls and heifers for $1000, and all of a sudden my market as well as my friends in the breed markets had dried up. The last group of bulls I had many from $50,000-$75,000 AI bulls were sold at commercial steer prices. I sold the heifers at the stockyards all for under $300 per head as yearlings.
The next bull I bought was a registered Angus and I can assure you I have never made enough of a premium to compensate for the loss.
So that's why I complain about CAB, as it all came about in a perfect storm.
Even so I became a believer in Angus.
Angus can be good cattle, they do a lot of things right, I have said that often.
I agree with you in that I do not like the current look of a lot of Angus and other breeds too for that matter.
I know that there are a lot of variation throughout the Angus world because there are so many, but I have found at least locally that pretty much every Angus breeder is essentially just a multiplier for the big breeders and AI companies and all have a similar combination of genetics.

As far as cattle grading for CAB, it's choice or higher the exact same as any other choice grade. Obviously a select grade would not be CAB or any other USDA choice grade.
For the record, I have bought quite a bit of CAB, before we started having our own beef processed. We've finished out Angus, Herefords,BWF and RWF crosses , and they must not be too poor of quality cause it sure is good, and we have had repeat customers for several years.
My thinking is that Angus are known for marbling, therefor a very high percentage of them will no doubt grade at least choice. I think the new emphasis on carcass breeding is geared toward grading prime.
It is my belief that about any beef breed or cross and especially British breeds will grade choice at a decent percentage.
Continentals like Simmentals and Charolais will also grade choice a good percentage of the time as well.

That pretty well sums up my experience too.

I have nothing against Angus as a breed and have used CAB to sell black cattle for better money than if I had used non-black breeding. I don't personally prefer Angus because there are better in my own opinion, but I would never discount a black or Angus animal and I base my buying strictly on what I expect to make out of them in profit.

I think the entire CAB marketing strategy is brilliant and has made some people a great deal of money... but that does NOT mean I think it's ethical or good for the industry as a whole... and it's also put a unjustifiable burden on people that raise superior cattle that will grade just as good as Angus... and yet get discounted. To this point I see CAB as nothing more than a dangerous scam that's damaging to livestock producers and the cattle industry as a whole.

 

[Brute 23]

It kind of seems like they tore every one else down to win, which I have never been a fan of.

 

[sstterry]

Back before the late 70's -early 80's very few wanted Angus cattle because they were short fat and dumpy. The trend then was toward the larger framed Continental breeds.

CAB started out as pure marketing, plain and simple. It worked. I can remember one of their first commercials from Hardee's talking about "Certified Angus Beef" in their burgers. A guy from my area was on the AAA and it was pretty common knowledge that this was all it was, there was a lot of talk about it in the show circles back then.

Later, when the marketing started to die off, AAA lobbyists convinced some idiot congressperson to sponsor some legislation. As much is the case a lot of the time, the members of Congress had no idea what they were doing or talking about and passed it blindly.
Over time, certain requirements have been established such as ribeye size, age of the animal, color of the hide, ect. As a breed, Angus cattle are not different than any other breed. Some animals are of higher quality just as in any breed.

Here is a good read on breeds generally, and how they have changed over the years.

From Big to Small to Big to Small: A Pictorial History of Cattle Changes Over the Years

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Thanks for posting that article !!... incredible how much some of those cattle looked like big hogs.

 

[sstterry]

Thanks for posting that article !!... incredible how much some of those cattle looked like big hogs.

Angus breeders were late to the game in the 70's and they were still small and fat cattle. Herford breeders had already started the move to larger frame cattle by that time. And everyone wanted Charolais bulls to improve frame size in their herds (in this area anyway).
That is how CAB started, to promote a breed that was behind in other areas. Over the last 50 years, genetics in Angus have improved, but they have in other breeds too. Meat quality depends on the carcass and not the breed.

 

[dave_shelby]

I don't want to wade into the ongoing certified Angus debate but the article cited by the OP is part of a larger phenomenon of junk sites that are crafted for SEO to pick up hits from google. Its now likely that these types of pages are written by AI.

 

[Ebenezer]

Back before the late 70's -early 80's very few wanted Angus cattle because they were short fat and dumpy. The trend then was toward the larger framed Continental breeds.

CAB started out as pure marketing, plain and simple. It worked. I can remember one of their first commercials from Hardee's talking about "Certified Angus Beef" in their burgers. A guy from my area was on the AAA and it was pretty common knowledge that this was all it was, there was a lot of talk about it in the show circles back then.

Later, when the marketing started to die off, AAA lobbyists convinced some idiot congressperson to sponsor some legislation. As much is the case a lot of the time, the members of Congress had no idea what they were doing or talking about and passed it blindly.
Over time, certain requirements have been established such as ribeye size, age of the animal, color of the hide, ect. As a breed, Angus cattle are not different than any other breed. Some animals are of higher quality just as in any breed.

Here is a good read on breeds generally, and how they have changed over the years.

From Big to Small to Big to Small: A Pictorial History of Cattle Changes Over the Years

Never leave history behind. The fat cattle of yesteryear had value because there was a great market for tallow.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Never leave history behind. The fat cattle of yesteryear had value because there was a great market for tallow.

Good point and there still is a demand for tallow !