krenwic
Well-known member
If you've got it all figured out, why continue throwing him under the bus. I think he was attempting to make people think rather than to change their minds.
krenwic
krenwic
SAV Net Worth 4200 (Angus)
- Thread starter Frankie
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bulldealer
Well-known member
krenwic":1gnc04un said:
It drives me crazy when people put down other operations. They must have people liking what they do or the wouldn't still be doing it...
Sorry to bring up an old post, but here is a Net Worth heifer that I recently saw. She's not mine and I don't know what is on her bottom side, but she was purchased through Schaff Angus Valley, so it might be their genetics. I thought she was very impressive, but was a little coarse through her front end and probably could have had a better shoulder attachment. Nonetheless, she was really deep bodied, very bold sprung and had a heck of a quarter for an angus. I also think she's going to stay pretty moderate. In my opinion cattle like this is where the angus breed needs to be heading to.
Frankie
Well-known member
Thanks for the pic. I wouldn't argue that some Angus need more muscle. But I really like for a heifer/cow to have a more feminine look than this one. We bred some cows to Net Worth this spring, so we'll see how he works for us.
Brandonm22
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RD-Sam":10fjdnf4 said:
I have seen steer shows that SHE could win!!! (with different plumbing of course).
alacattleman
Well-known member
she's a thick outfit, but she does look bullish
Willow Springs
Well-known member
Exactly.
If this is what the Angus breed needs then I am definitely headed in the wrong direction with the wrong breed of cattle.
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
The proper weaning weight to shoot for is the one that makes your particular outfit money-i have a sneaking suspicionthat some ranches that were paid for by 5 weight calves got themselves in trouble trying to wean 8 weights-I always buy bulls from outfits that run cattle similar to the way I do. Primp, pomp and circumstance can have a tough go in the bugs and muskkegs.
Angus In Texas
Well-known member
Do you think she might be a freemartin??? Looks like a little too much testosterone is flowing.
Its funny, I kept thinking the guys that were bashing the SAV program in this thread were probably Pharo followers and sure enough, about halfway through the post, his name came up. I find myself reading almost every available thing I can about the cattle business (this and other BS boards included) and I rarely see guys that choose to creep their calves and wean big animals bash the lonely ol grass fed producer. But, I ALWAYS see so many stricly grass guys trying beat up and discredit any program that doesn't do exactly what they see as fit for the industry by feeding only grass??? Could it be jealousy - it's kind of hard to shrugg the theory off! If I were strictly a grass producer (which I'm not) it seems like if everyone else were doing it wrong, I would quietly want to tip toe to the bank after every sale and not let my secret get out so I could keep my "ninch" smaller, low input cattle/bulls available to everyone else that so badly needed the or wanted them. Seems like no matter how loud the scream is about "programs that over feed" (with the newsletters and all) they just can't come close to the non bashing producer like SAV with their sales. Man, I'm missing it? Where there is a demand, there is going to be a supply - why arent these 400lb weaned calves or puny low input bulls bringing 260K or being promoted in all the bull studs? Grass producers - your product is good and has a place in the business but why try to discredit so many others??? You make yourselves sound like jealous ex wives or husbands? I've read several newsletters from a well known low input grass producer (the one that seems to get you guys all stirred up like you are going in to battle) and everytime I think he starts to make pretty good sense, he bashes another program and I end up trashing the thing again. Frustrating and too bad...........I like reading these boards to hear about all the different bulls people are sampling as well as other things but when bashing starts - it's gets comical really fast.
Chris
Chris
Gators Rule
Well-known member
bulldealer":2olgp068 said:
Amen :clap: I'm sure there are a few folks who would buy a sire who was known to produce 400lb WW's....as long as the bull produced the right color....LOL
By the way Aero, bulls are typically used to add a little something to a herd. If the average cow in a herd produces 600 lb WW calves, and a grower wants to increase that, they add a bull that is known to produce weaning weight calves higher than 600 lbs....like 700, 800, or 900 lbs. If a rancher wants to reduce their weaning weight size, simply add a bull with a WW under 600.
Bottom line: Why say someone is not a "real" breeder because they do something a little different than you prefer. Based on success of selling to REPEAT buyers, I would bet money that they doing some things that "real" breeders do...
david
Cowdirt
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Cattleman200":3511lidx said:
Cattleman200, I guess I'm like the bumble bee which is not supposed to be able to fly but flies anyway. Hay in the winter, grass the rest of the time. Minerals year around. Produces way more than 400lbs at 205 days for me.
Brandonm22
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Gators Rule":3abyqv5h said:
WHERE are the 900 lb weaning weight commercial calves??? Heck for that matter who can routinely fill an order for two pot belly loads of 800 lb 205 day weaning wt commercial calves? We have "seedstock" produces who blow past 8 wt calves all the time. So one would think that somebody who was crossing the highest growth Angus bloodlines with the highest growth rate Charolais lines with the highest growth rate Hereford or Gelbvieh or Brangus or Simmental lines would easily wean off calves in the high 8s since heterosis tells me that the cross calves out of those gynormous growth lines should outweigh any straightbred cattle, but when I go to the sale I don't see pens full of milk faced 850 lb plus weanlings. Doubt me? Look at a market report http://marketnews.usda.gov/gear/browseb ... _LS144.TXT Somebody was able to sell all of 15 785 lb Med & LRG 1 steers (whether it was one group or 15 seperate calves I can't tell). There were no 2s or 3 muscle score steers getting that heavy. 5 heifers went to the salebarn avging 729. Three 2s avged 763. 4 bull calves sold in the entire state of Alabama weighed 765. Out of 3600 hd sold in the Alabama barns last week you might be able to scrape together 27 head of "feeder calves" in the mid to high 700s and I bet most of those are more than 205 days old. Granted it is mid winter so a 205 day old calf today would have been born at the tail end of the calving season in july; but if we go back to the big fall runs and look at it on a percentage basis sub 600 lb calves will still vastly outnumber the +700 lb calves. Here we were selling off whole trailer loads of calves in the mid 6s in the early 90s on primarily forage. The industry has made enormous strides in EPD improvements since then. These big growth line herds brag on the 800+ and 900+ lb weaning weights. You can look at cull cow weights and see that 1600++ lb cows are not uncommon. A lot of commercial guys still go to a pen of bulls and buy the biggest bull in the pen (and some of them have been doing that for DECADES) and most of them still don't break the 650 lb mark on their avg weaned steer. Sure I have sold individual calves in the 9 wts; but come close to avging it? no. The industry went from weaning 4 wt calves to 5 wt calves pretty easily. It has taken a whole lot more effort to go from the mid 5s to the low 6 wts than it did to go from the low 5 wts to the mid 5 wts. WHY is the 8 wt calf not the norm???? We know that we have the genetics to achieve that kind of growth in a lot of herds (just look at the size of the mature cow herd!) yet clearly something is holding us back. It is a combination of heat, cold, forage quality, hay quality, forage quantity, rain, minerals, parasites, flies, etc that makes up the environment. Go buy "a bull that is known to produce weaning weight calves higher than 600 lbs....like 700, 800, or 900 lbs." and you are not going to consistently get that kind of commercial production without providing a cost prohibitive level of nutrition like the seedstock producer is doing to get those brag about numbers in the first place.
Brandann -
I don't think you're looking far enough into this - you're only scratching the surface. Alot of the high performing seedstock cattle are bred to have the Genetic Propensity to gain well. I don't think there is any arguement that people who buy bulls from another program that had 8, 9 or 1000 pound 205 day weights expect to get that from all or any of the offspring that that bull has for offspring. Rather, we now have data behind him that gives us a certain level of confidence that his offspring have the "genetic propensity" to gain well if put on a gaining ration as opposed to a sire that did not grow or gain well. I have the perfect examples of that in my own herd of weaned calves from last year - I had a few standouts that gained at a much higher pace on the same ration as others and it fell perfectly in line with the EPD's behind the sire and dams - this doesn't happen every time but I usually expect this and I'm not surprised when real gains correlate well to the EPD's behind the animal. And it doesn't stop there, I know several feedlots who refuse to pubicly support one color or another but behind the scenes usually have very positive things to say about favorites that they might have for breeds known to grow and finish well (by the way, they are feeding grain rations, not hay). So, from my experience even though I may not achieve the same weights that someone like SAV might be getting - I know the genetic propesity is there, not only for me but on down the line for the feedlot. Every now and again, I'll find an animal that even with high numbers just doesn't flesh well - but I've had them with low numbers that didn't flesh well either. Generally speaking though, most of the time the higher number cattle gain well even on grass.
Chris
I don't think you're looking far enough into this - you're only scratching the surface. Alot of the high performing seedstock cattle are bred to have the Genetic Propensity to gain well. I don't think there is any arguement that people who buy bulls from another program that had 8, 9 or 1000 pound 205 day weights expect to get that from all or any of the offspring that that bull has for offspring. Rather, we now have data behind him that gives us a certain level of confidence that his offspring have the "genetic propensity" to gain well if put on a gaining ration as opposed to a sire that did not grow or gain well. I have the perfect examples of that in my own herd of weaned calves from last year - I had a few standouts that gained at a much higher pace on the same ration as others and it fell perfectly in line with the EPD's behind the sire and dams - this doesn't happen every time but I usually expect this and I'm not surprised when real gains correlate well to the EPD's behind the animal. And it doesn't stop there, I know several feedlots who refuse to pubicly support one color or another but behind the scenes usually have very positive things to say about favorites that they might have for breeds known to grow and finish well (by the way, they are feeding grain rations, not hay). So, from my experience even though I may not achieve the same weights that someone like SAV might be getting - I know the genetic propesity is there, not only for me but on down the line for the feedlot. Every now and again, I'll find an animal that even with high numbers just doesn't flesh well - but I've had them with low numbers that didn't flesh well either. Generally speaking though, most of the time the higher number cattle gain well even on grass.
Chris
Cattleman200
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Report this postReply with quote Re: SAV Net Worth 4200 (Angus)
by Cowdirt » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:35 pm
Cattleman200 wrote:
Im not fighting. Im just making a point. In other words a true statement.
Anybody with half a brain knows you have to supplement cows. Any REAL seedstock producer in the nation would be the laughing stock if all his animals weaned at 400 pounds and with all the other expenses the average commercial breeder would go broke weaning 400 pound calves. Anyone that received a sale catalog in the mail on a bull sale and the bulls all had 400 pound weaning weights would be more likely to toss it in the trash and have a good laugh than get all fired up about attending the sale. Thats what I would do. Sometimes crazy posts in here deserve a crazy response.
Circle H Ranch
Cattleman200, I guess I'm like the bumble bee which is not supposed to be able to fly but flies anyway. Hay in the winter, grass the rest of the time. Minerals year around. Produces way more than 400lbs at 205 days for me.
Thats great but the last time I looked Mineral was a supplement .
Circle H Ranch
by Cowdirt » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:35 pm
Cattleman200 wrote:
Im not fighting. Im just making a point. In other words a true statement.
Anybody with half a brain knows you have to supplement cows. Any REAL seedstock producer in the nation would be the laughing stock if all his animals weaned at 400 pounds and with all the other expenses the average commercial breeder would go broke weaning 400 pound calves. Anyone that received a sale catalog in the mail on a bull sale and the bulls all had 400 pound weaning weights would be more likely to toss it in the trash and have a good laugh than get all fired up about attending the sale. Thats what I would do. Sometimes crazy posts in here deserve a crazy response.
Circle H Ranch
Cattleman200, I guess I'm like the bumble bee which is not supposed to be able to fly but flies anyway. Hay in the winter, grass the rest of the time. Minerals year around. Produces way more than 400lbs at 205 days for me.
Thats great but the last time I looked Mineral was a supplement .
Circle H Ranch
Northern Rancher
Well-known member
Profitability is calculated as Income-expenses. A weaning weight is just a factor in the equation-it is easy enough to manufacture. Obviously at a $10,000 average SAV is getting a return on their management investment. There are ranches paid for with 4 weight calves and ranches broke with 7 weights-the genetics used have to fit your ranches resources and your own particular style of management. In the Angus breed today big and growthy is easy-moderate and sound is alot tougher to come by. There is whole world of market between the thousand pound corn feds and the 300 pound smurfs.
Gators Rule
Well-known member
If have a herd whereby the herd average is 550 lb WW, and a commercial producer wants to increase the WW ave, they may choose to use a bull 800 WW numbers. Of course, that doesn't mean they are going to have their commercial herd produce 800 lb WW numbers, but the herd "should" show WW results over 550 after several generations of production. Also, if the commercial producer isn't seeing the financial rewards when they buy these "fat" bulls, they'll quit buying them. If not, they should...LOL
