SAV Net Worth 4200 (Angus)

[Aero]

just think:
if a Net Worth son weans at 1019 lbs, any old average Angus bull's son would wean at 1000lbs!

why anyone would be impressed with this is beyond me.

is it a feeding contest? i thought real breeders were making better animals not feeding more to the animals.

 

[Brandonm22]

just think:
if a Net Worth son weans at 1019 lbs, any old average Angus bull's son would wean at 1000lbs!

why anyone would be impressed with this is beyond me.

is it a feeding contest? i thought real breeders were making better animals not feeding more to the animals.

I keep thinking the same thing. Unless you are supplementing heavy, not many people around here have the environment to get those heavy weights; but they still go out and buy the biggest bull they have ever seen or if they read the EPDs they want one with the biggest numbers they have ever seen. I don't know folks well enough to ask to see their books, but it looks to me like a lot of folks can't be making money given how much hay and cubes they are feeding.

 

[lakading]

I don't think any more people are impressed with 1,000+ adjusted 205 weights than are with funnel butted carcass "standouts".

And are you saying that the Schaff's aren't "real" breeders?

just think:
if a Net Worth son weans at 1019 lbs, any old average Angus bull's son would wean at 1000lbs!

why anyone would be impressed with this is beyond me.

is it a feeding contest? i thought real breeders were making better animals not feeding more to the animals.

 

[Aero]

I havent decided yet, but i can tell you i dont like some of their practices and I am leaning to the No side.

 

[bulldealer]

With the average winter temperature of 8 below to +15, don't you think that the feed may be for survival and not 900# weaning weights???

 

[Brandonm22]

With the average winter temperature of 8 below to +15, don't you think that the feed may be for survival and not 900# weaning weights???

I don't think anybody believes they can get through their winter without supplementing the cows. Some of us think though that you don't get 900 lb weaning weights without keeping up that supplementing program year round (and I like this bull a lot more than many of his contemporaries). As expensive as land is getting, if we thought we could rear the cow herd in a feed lot we all would, but that is NOT the economic model most of us practice.....so why are breeders churning out more and more cattle that seem tailor made to that kind of environment?

 

[Aero]

With the average winter temperature of 8 below to +15, don't you think that the feed may be for survival and not 900# weaning weights???

you must be trying to get a job with them. this isnt how that works.

 

[bulldealer]

Areo wrote>>>
"you must be trying to get a job with them. this isnt how that works."


Nope, not trying to get a job. I have a great job...and its not hosting a BS cattle message board!

I have yet to have a customer that has used Net Worth, or any of the Schaff bulls, complain to me that they are not getting 900# weaning weights. If they can average $6500 on 600 bulls, great for them. Why be jealous or negative towards their program. Manage yours like you want to manage them, and let Schaff's do the same. I never hear you bashing the Ashland group.

Enlighten me on "how this works"

 

[Aero]

If you think 900-1000 lb weaning weights are possible without heavy supplementation, you must be stuck in a university lab or doing the metric conversion backwards. I know what it takes to get calves to 900+ lbs at weaning, we have done it over and over. Who did it help? nobody but the feed salesmen. who did it hurt? everybody else.

I dont have any problem with them getting a ton of money for their bulls; I am glad they are having great success. But if they really think they are helping commercial cattlemen reach long-term profitability, they are fools. If they are not fools, they are using a marketing trick to get money out of producers that put faith into a breeding program they think is helping them and has pretty bulls to sell. read the intro to their latest sale book: "Our breeding philosophy emphasizes performance, fertility, fleshing-ease and udder quality, along with the ability for a cow to wean a heavy calf under range conditions year after year." If you can find one rancher that weans 1000 lbs "under range conditions", call me. I am going to see him right now.

There is a certain amount of additional intake that is required to compensate for cold temperatures. this is to maintain condition, and not a preventive measure. if the animals need that much fat to make it through the winter, they are not suited to their environment... probably because of the blind numbers chasing. but that's not the case; those calves would make it through just fine weaning at 400 lbs. the bulls would have a longer productive life and would actually gain weight when they reached their new homes, but who can market 400 lb weaning weights? It's just an artificial environment that doesnt prepare the bulls (or cows) to live anywhere but there.

take their best 10 cows and put them in Wyoming on the range with 10 mediocre cows from Shoshone for 5 years and see which group weans more total pounds.

you're right, I dont bash Mark for a few reasons. 1) he is a friend of mine, 2) he is very upfront that they are raising terminal bulls focusing on EPDs, and 3) i dont read that much stuff on here about their program.

 

[jscunn]

Matt,

I normally agree with you but I think you are alittle off the mark here. I think SAV bulls (Net Worth, Density,etc) have a place in the Angus business. They are terminal type cattle but there must be a ton of performance in those cattle to get to 1000# at weaning. You have to have all three (frame, muscle, and yes fat) to get calves to that weight. I think they are alot like Mark G. with the terminal type cattle except Kelly has actually better aligned his cattle's strengths (WW) with the way most producers sell there cattle (at weaning). NOTE : I have never seen SAV in person. The catalog does show alot of females with really nice udders as well. SO out of the 5 things Kelly listed in his catalog (performance, fertility, fleshing ease, and udder quality, ability to raise a heavy calf in range conditions.) He has accomplished two out of 5, the other 3 we (ME AND YOU) dont know about because I have never seen the place, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt. He77 40% success, Kelly should run for president of the United States.

BTW I like your BS Cattle message board..

 

[lakading]

those calves would make it through just fine weaning at 400 lbs. the bulls would have a longer productive life and would actually gain weight when they reached their new homes, but who can market 400 lb weaning weights?

Are you saying that someone who raises calves with 400 lb 205 weights and markets them as breeding bulls fits your idea of a "real" breeder?

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well I run cattle where temps can range from -50 in winter-not for a day or so for weeks-it can get to mid90's in summer. Most cattle manage to function up here on nothing but grass/alfalfa or slough hay. We don't wean 1,000 pound calves but we do slaughter 1350 pound finished steers. I think if your prepared to foot the feed bill and manage your cattle accordingly Schaff cattle work just fine. I'm not saying they absolutely won't work as ranch cattle but I'd rather not have to do the sorting to find the ones that will. I have several customers that have used them successfully but they are PB breeders who are a bit kinder in their management. As for being a good marketer that is part and parcel of the purebred deal.

 

[Aero]

Are you saying that someone who raises calves with 400 lb 205 weights and markets them as breeding bulls fits your idea of a "real" breeder?

no, but i can tell you it doesnt disqualify them.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Good reply Matt.

 

[Cattleman200]

Re: SAV Net Worth 4200 (Angus)
by Aero on Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:24 am

lakading wrote:
Are you saying that someone who raises calves with 400 lb 205 weights and markets them as breeding bulls fits your idea of a "real" breeder?
no, but i can tell you it doesnt disqualify them.
It would disqualify me. I would be out of business as would a lot of other breeders if they were only weaning 400 lb. calves at 205 days.

Circle H Ranch

 

[lakading]

It should.

Are you saying that someone who raises calves with 400 lb 205 weights and markets them as breeding bulls fits your idea of a "real" breeder?

no, but i can tell you it doesnt disqualify them.

 

[Aero]

now that's funny.

does a bull's genetics change because he has fat on him? if he can breed the cows, he is heavy enough. how fat he is will not make one bit of difference in the calves he makes.

it's not about how much the calves weigh; it's about how much you make off of them. yes, you will get paid more for larger calves, but that doesnt mean you made more (or any) off of them.

what's wrong w/ 400 lbs? if you never feed them or their mamas, you can knock 70% off of the average farmer's overhead costs. how much would your calves have to bring if you could reduce your costs by 70%? get rid of the tractors, hay equipment, mixer wagon. while you are at it, get rid of ET, synch, and AI. imagine how much time and money you would save.

you go out and tag calves as they hit the ground and then vaccinate at weaning and ship them. That All!

But then, what fun would farming be if it wasnt such a struggle?

still think real breeders have to breed for big calves? real breeders make animals that help their customers.

 

[Frankie]

No, a bull's genetics don't change because he's big and fat. But being big and fat tells us that he has the genetics to grow big and get fat. If we don't feed them to test their genetic potential, how will you know whether their calves will grow and get fat?

 

[Cattleman200]

I reckon if you NEVER fed the mamas you could take down the wire, posts and sell them too and plant your place in trees because the cows would all be dead.


Circle H Ranch

 

[EAT BEEF]

I reckon if you NEVER fed the mamas you could take down the wire, posts and sell them too and plant your place in trees because the cows would all be dead.


Circle H Ranch

Your cows might,but why do we all want to fight about this? You can put lip stick on a pig, but it's still a pig.