SAV America has a long way to go

[CreekAngus]

I enjoy the threads on the newest hottest bulls, I don't know how America is going to turn o but I can tell you I have to agree with BH on the fact his genetics are impressive 4136 and 075 are two of the best Angus cows that have walked. I have visited Schaff and will add that their cattle are exceptional.


Gizmom

Couldn't you just use Supercharger to get the same thing done at a far lower price? I ask that, because that is the route I'm taking and personally I would rather have Recharge in the pedigree than Charlo.

I'm not sure you fully appreciate what President brings to the equation. America is better than Supercharger in my opinion, with a lot owed to President's influence.

I won't be doing it anytime soon, but I will, in time breed a few President daughters to Supercharger, should be interesting.

I WILL say that I'm hoping to get a Supercharger daughter very soon, why? Because I'm wanting to get embryos and get some Supercharger/Net Worth daughters. They would be built like the proverbial brick outhouse.

And that's why it's in the eye of the beholder. I prefer Renown, Resource and Recharge to Charlo. I'm not knocking Rainmaker, eventually I will use Rainfall down the road. Eventually I'm :? taking a similar journey, minus Charlo and getting 707. Not begrudging anyone for using America or Rainmaker (President).

 

[LCBulls]

Here's the Famous flush brothers actuals.
SAV President 6847 (Lot 366)
SAV Raindance 6848 (Lot 367)
SAV Rainfall 6846 (Lot 368)



Picture I took of President on sale day.

Don't look like the spine ties into the shoulder well to me.

How consistent are the calves of these bulls going to be? At our sale barns here in Kansas they will split up a group if they aren't consistent and so if they get split up then the ones and twos and threes get docked pretty bad. That cuts into the check especially when there is maybe only 20-30 in the group to start with.

What kind of longevity are the females going to have? Are they going to last 14-18 years old? If a female gets flushed when they are 3-5 yrs old how many of these things are known?

I have seen dispersal catalogs of some of these genetics and it makes me wonder what the problem was. Normally if a person isn't old enough to retire or slow down there is other problems. Is it cattle income that is a problem?

Just some thoughts that I consider when I look at my herd and others.

Their dam was over 16 years old at the time she passed away. She is the Dam of Resource, Renown , Recharge, Seedstock, Sensation, President, Raindance, Rainfall etc. I'd say she's pretty consistent.

We've used at least half of these sires and they are always at the top end of our herd, especially with regard to phenotype, structure, and size.

That's why America is in such demand. His Dam also produced past 16 years old and crosses 4136 x 0075. Its as safe a bet as you can get in a young bull in my opinion.

Our Raindance and President heifers are excellent this year.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Here's the Famous flush brothers actuals.
SAV President 6847 (Lot 366)
SAV Raindance 6848 (Lot 367)
SAV Rainfall 6846 (Lot 368)



Picture I took of President on sale day.

Don't look like the spine ties into the shoulder well to me.

How consistent are the calves of these bulls going to be? At our sale barns here in Kansas they will split up a group if they aren't consistent and so if they get split up then the ones and twos and threes get docked pretty bad. That cuts into the check especially when there is maybe only 20-30 in the group to start with.

What kind of longevity are the females going to have? Are they going to last 14-18 years old? If a female gets flushed when they are 3-5 yrs old how many of these things are known?

I have seen dispersal catalogs of some of these genetics and it makes me wonder what the problem was. Normally if a person isn't old enough to retire or slow down there is other problems. Is it cattle income that is a problem?

Just some thoughts that I consider when I look at my herd and others.

Their dam was over 16 years old at the time she passed away. She is the Dam of Resource, Renown , Recharge, Seedstock, Sensation, President, Raindance, Rainfall etc. I'd say she's pretty consistent.

How does being a donor dam, and not having to calve every year effect an animals longevity?
Could their dam have lasted 16 years if she was getting bull bred on pasture, and calving every year?

Consistency, and longevity are pretty easy to obtain in a controlled environment.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No, flushing can actually be harder on their reproductive system than carrying a calf, as far as I know and have heard. Getting them pregnant and IVF flushing is better for them than conventional flushes.

 

[LCBulls]

One thing that 4136 has proven is Consistency.

Structure is second only to Fertility when it comes to Longevity. Just look at her Foot EPD's. Proven top 1% for Hoof Shape, Top 3% for Foot Angle. Docility is also important when keeping cows in your herd. She at the top of the breed for that as well.

 

[LCBulls]

Jeanne's right about flushing cows. It's much more difficult to flush them conventionally with FSH and get them to breed back, than to just breed them naturally each year.
IVF has made it much easier, but if you leave a cow open too long they are tougher to get pregnant.You can't constantly flush cows conventionally without getting them bred back at least every other season.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Of all the cows in the Angus breed, attempting to discredit 4136 and 0075 is quite laughable. They are what I strive for in our program, and I probably speak for a lot of other Angus breeders out there as well.

No Angus cow is perfect, but those two are pretty darn close.

Only in my wildest cow fantasies will I have two cows that generate close to $14 million in progeny sales.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

No, flushing can actually be harder on their reproductive system than carrying a calf, as far as I know and have heard. Getting them pregnant and IVF flushing is better for them than conventional flushes.

Wasn't really comparing just the longevity of reproductive tracks of a donor cow, and a natural bred cow, but more along the lines of the full scope of a cows life cycle.
Most high dollar donor cows don't get shorted any meals, or really have to go through the gauntlet of trials a production cow goes through. I mean who would risk a donor cow that sells eggs for 5K a pop on the possibility that something could happen to her while out on pasture for 10 months out of the year?
So that is why I asked what is the comparison between the two in relation to environment and it's effect on longevity and consistent outcomes?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..

She has never been flushed, and really never pampered. She can be pet on the head in the middle of the field.

[image]367[/image]

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..



[image]367[/image]

I've seen some that have done that..make you wonder how they made it for thousands of years..

 

[CattleMan1920]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..



[image]367[/image]

I've seen some that have done that..make you wonder how they made it for thousands of years..

I have a friend that has a Limousin cow that is 24 years old and pregnant! I trust his word, but in my case, I have AAA documentation to back up what I'm saying. His is commercial and he may or may not have his records straight, but my guess is that he does, he's been in the cattle business over 50 years, and keeps very good records.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..



[image]367[/image]

I've seen some that have done that..make you wonder how they made it for thousands of years..

And without those fancy dog collars no less.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..

She has never been flushed, and really never pampered. She can be pet on the head in the middle of the field.

[image]367[/image]

Thanks for sharing that, although I wonder are you say your 13 y/o cow spent 16 winter outside, or did you mean her mother did? :lol:
I have a 20 y/o, and a 18 y/o that are going to calve this fall, spent everyday on fescue pasture and hay, maybe someday they'll make good cows... :lol:

 

[Bcompton53]

Of all the cows in the Angus breed, attempting to discredit 4136 and 0075 is quite laughable. They are what I strive for in our program, and I probably speak for a lot of other Angus breeders out there as well.

No Angus cow is perfect, but those two are pretty darn close.

Only in my wildest cow fantasies will I have two cows that generate close to $14 million in progeny sales.

Whaaaaat? looking at 4136, let me point out the things I don't like....BW, HP, milk, MW, MH, $en, marb, $M. So, ummm pass. I'm sure she fits SOMEONES operation, but not mine.

 

[Bcompton53]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..

She has never been flushed, and really never pampered. She can be pet on the head in the middle of the field.

[image]367[/image]

Wait.....you have a cow that has a calf on her side a month from calving again??? That ain't right.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..

She has never been flushed, and really never pampered. She can be pet on the head in the middle of the field.

[image]367[/image]

Wait.....you have a cow that has a calf on her side a month from calving again??? That ain't right.

I do it all the time, check out my Instagram at BrookhillAngusRanch and look at a 10 month old heifer that I have out of President. Momma is bred back to America, confirmed with Biopryn test, and is still over 1900 pounds, maybe 2000 still nursing that big heifer. She was over 2K when we bred her. I let the females stay on till they wean themselves off naturally. This has produced some superb females for us over the years, and as long as the cow has no issues, what does it matter?

If they were out in a natural setting, they would wean off whenever they feel like it, right?

I pull the bull calves out however to prevent any chance of them getting other females pregnant.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

James - you really like to do things odd. LOL

 

[CattleMan1920]

James - you really like to do things odd. LOL

Results are all that matters.

I also have multiple groups, usually no more than 20 head. With really old cows all the way down to new calves. They become super tight and protective, like a family. Old cows show the younger ones, while the oldest cow tends to be the leader, which all others follow regardless of their size advantage. Read about this on Google, it's proven. What I like most about doing this is that the heifers have excellent maternal traits, rarely leave their calf and wander off, and generally raise their calf very well.

This isn't for everyone, but I'm pleased with the females that are coming forward generation after generation.

 

[Bcompton53]

Born 11/07/2003

Has a daughter in production here born on 9/30/2006

She has female progeny throughout our herd. Her 2017 daughter is now bred to SAV America 8018, settled on first try.

Excellent feet, fertile, has an SAV Raindance calf on her side, and SAV Elation calf inside her ready to calve next month, and will be bred back to SAV America 8018 if she looks at us and says "let's do it!"

This one has spent nearly 16 miserable winters outside, endured the heat, rain, flies, you name it, she's seen it..

She has never been flushed, and really never pampered. She can be pet on the head in the middle of the field.

[image]367[/image]

Wait.....you have a cow that has a calf on her side a month from calving again??? That ain't right.

I do it all the time, check out my Instagram at BrookhillAngusRanch and look at a 10 month old heifer that I have out of President. Momma is bred back to America, confirmed with Biopryn test, and is still over 1900 pounds, maybe 2000 still nursing that big heifer. She was over 2K when we bred her. I let the females stay on till they wean themselves off naturally. This has produced some superb females for us over the years, and as long as the cow has no issues, what does it matter?

If they were out in a natural setting, they would wean off whenever they feel like it, right?

I pull the bull calves out however to prevent any chance of them getting other females pregnant.

That's how all the undomesticated angus cow herds do it. :cowboy:

So surely when you're posting weaning weights it's a standardized weight right? Because my 5 month weaned steer and you're 10 month weaned steer aren't the same. Your feed bill has to be just off the charts. For an experiment, for the better of all of the CT community, would you be willing to take one of your 2000 pound cows and put them on pasture from apr-oct, no grain supplement, and then hay plus 4lbs of corn/SBM for the winter? We'd like to see how she fares.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I can post pics of our cows when they were strictly on grass and before I took over operations. They ate only hay in the winter. Will get them to you tomorrow. You will see a slight difference, but not much.

One misnomer is that we have fed them to their current size. Our females have been culled for close to 50 years, keeping the largest deepest bodied cows, everything else was moved out. That had a big effect on the size of our cows. Not feed.