Replacement Heifers

[Katpau]

OK Texas Bred,
I have looked at your photos in the photo gallery. There were no yearlings and very few cattle pictures. I won't comment on them. Your first post to Oldtimer was "Pretty averaging looking, sorry". I am not sure why you are sorry because I would consider that a compliment. My best cows almost always are the ones I didn't really notice as yearlings. Those good average cows, just doing their job and breeding up year after year, bringing in that good average calf. Most of the time, that fancy impressive heifer is gone before she hits middle age, and one day you look out and realize that the heifer you almost did not keep is out there raising her 10th or 15th calf, and she never once gave you a reason to cull.


3waycross,
You asked:
"Not trying to start a fight but using a BEEF cattle standard what is it that leads you to that conclusion."
Like I said, I don't see anything in those photos that would stop me from keeping them as replacements, and I don't see any obvious flaws that would prevent them becoming good cows. From the little I can tell, feet and legs look good. Decent topline. Most have good slope from hooks to pins. I don't see anything that I think would cause functional issues leading to them breaking down early. I like these particular bloodlines and have had some success with similar lines. Whether they stayed or not would depend on my need for replacements and how much I like their Dam and the other daughters of the sire. The photos I have seen of Oldtimer's cows have suited my taste and the breeding he mentions on 406 seems unlikely to produce a poor rear end, or a poor cow for that matter. I have not seen her from the rear so I am not prepared to judge on that, but I would bet she is not actually narrow through the pelvic. I don't think it is possible to estimate pelvic area from a side shot, and even a direct rear view won't help. It can't be measured just by looking. You need to get inside.
I am not sure if you are implying that BEEF cows should have big rear ends, but at least in the Angus breed that is often not the case. Many of today's most popular big carcass number bulls have an A$$ that makes this heifer look like a Piedmontese. I am exaggerating to make a point, but look through any semen catalog and you will see dozens of bulls with no a$$. For some reason high marbling seems like it often comes along with a more Jersey like rear end. If you think cows need a big azz to be good how do you explain Tehema Bando 155. He was one of the most popular bulls of all time for producing outstanding daughters, and I have heard his rear end compared to that of a Jersey bull. A fat or heavily muscled azz is not a prerequisite for being a good cow. I like that look myself, but I have been disappointed in the production of many of my favorite wide bottom cows when their less phenotypically pleasing (to me) contemporaries out performed them.

What about these heifers makes you believe they won't work?

 

[3waycross]

What about these heifers makes you believe they won't work?[/quote]

A couple of things that are deal breakers for me. #1 and most important they are all with the exception of the 401 extremely short from their hooks to their pins. #2 Last time I looked beef was sold by the pound and to go out of your way to breed cattle with virtually no top or bottom round makes little if no sense to me. #3 to my taste they are all (401 not included) cut too high in the flank for me.

Now if your aim is to breed mediocre cattle then have at it but these are supposed to be seedstock quality and they are not.

Bottom line is they might meet your standard but not mine or that of some people whose opinion I respect a lot. TB for one.

to be brutal 406 looks like a corriente. not a registered angus heifer especially one that is expected to breed soon. Her freakin but is concave, for cryin out loud.

 

[3waycross]

402 is a pretty decent heifer. I tnd by wha I said about the rest

 

[cow pollinater]

401 and 402 are decent heifers. 406 is a cull and I don't care what she's bred like she's still a cull. I think calling them average was a fair assessment and maybe even on the kind side when you have 406 in the bunch.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Them 1st one that were posted look like jerseys that have been drug threw a used stove pipe to me. But I didn't say that out loud.

 

[TexasBred]

OK Texas Bred,
I have looked at your photos in the photo gallery. There were no yearlings and very few cattle pictures. I won't comment on them. Your first post to Oldtimer was "Pretty averaging looking, sorry". I am not sure why you are sorry because I would consider that a compliment. My best cows almost always are the ones I didn't really notice as yearlings. Those good average cows, just doing their job and breeding up year after year, bringing in that good average calf. Most of the time, that fancy impressive heifer is gone before she hits middle age, and one day you look out and realize that the heifer you almost did not keep is out there raising her 10th or 15th calf, and she never once gave you a reason to cull.

I understand what you're saying but these calves were presented along with breeding information so I assume they are registered and should be "seed stock" quality heifers. In my mine they are now. I thought I was being kind by rating them "average" followed by a "sorry" which was an apology for not being able to agree with what I think OT probably thinks of them.

Really hadn't noticed that all I have is pics of adult cattle. Only thing I can think of it that I had a large brangus breeder who bought all my heifers as soon as they were weaned. I no longer own any registered cattle but have some commercial heifers I'll try to get some pics of. Everyone will be more than welcome to critique them. They are not perfect.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

. My best cows almost always are the ones I didn't really notice as yearlings. Those good average cows, just doing their job and breeding up year after year, bringing in that good average calf. Most of the time, that fancy impressive heifer is gone before she hits middle age, and one day you look out and realize that the heifer you almost did not keep is out there raisiong her 10th or 15th calf, and she never once gave you a
........don't know you from Adams house cat but, your 100percent correct on this one..

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

kaput if you think that is why Bando 155 was used so heavy you are wrong. He was tallest bull in the angus breed in the frame race era. Dam bull looked like a Holstein bull without spots

 

[fenceman]

. My best cows almost always are the ones I didn't really notice as yearlings. Those good average cows, just doing their job and breeding up year after year, bringing in that good average calf. Most of the time, that fancy impressive heifer is gone before she hits middle age, and one day you look out and realize that the heifer you almost did not keep is out there raisiong her 10th or 15th calf, and she never once gave you a
........don't know you from Adams house cat but, your 100percent correct on this one..

I thought that was pretty good.
I keep heifers based more on how I liked their mothers. There is nothing wrong with trying to raise perfect show quality cattle. But it doesn't put you on a high horse above those who retain their heifers based on a different criteria.
To me most important quality in a cow, is that she does her job. She needs to half and raise a calf every year, with minimal to no help form me. She's a employee and needs to do her job . I have my own work to do.
I understand you raise some fine cattle 3way cross. :tiphat: and I mean no disrespect , sir. Some of the things you judge a heifer on, I don't even no what your talking about. :lol2: at me .
Our goals are different, I don't cull a good mama cow because of a minor flaw in confirmation. It's just different niches in the business. That's all.
If we culled everything that wasn't perfect in every way. All we would have , is a bunch of grass...sincerely fenceman.

It also seems oldtimer doesn't give a rats azz. What any of us think. To you sir. My respect :tiphat:

 

[Toad]

Lets be honest if these heifers were fed grain heavy for a few months a lot of the comments wouldn't be as harsh.
As others said before some of the ugliest cows can really get the job done. I bought an old cow several years ago for $750. She is a grouchy old cantankerous b*tch that looks like a short pot bellied sack of potatoes but she normally raises one of the best calves. This spring I sold a 7 month old steer calf right off of her for almost $1500. I would take a field full of ugly cows just like her.

 

[Nesikep]

I like the good looking cows, but they also have work to do.. sometimes I gotta give a little on one side to get a little on the other... Once in a while I get the whole package, and then I'm really happy. Seems I'm batting about 30% on picking the whole package.

 

[bball]

I like the good looking cows, but they also have work to do.. sometimes I gotta give a little on one side to get a little on the other... Once in a while I get the whole package, and then I'm really happy. Seems I'm batting about 30% on picking the whole package.

I'm right there with you. It's dang hard. I really get what some of the folks are posting about average heifers sneaking up on you and quietly surprising you while some of the 'top of the heap' heifers just don't make..I have a 3 year old out of one of my best producing cows (kept her for that reason, and she was a nice looking girl as well). First calf was kinda small at weaning (lower end of the group for weight). She bred backg timely and had one of the first calfs this year. Calf just don't look like much again. If it doesn't wean at 575, she is gone. And I don't think it's going to make 575 without a small miracle. I was more patient with her than I typically am. I will be ruthless this fall.

 

[Nesikep]

of the 3 I have in mind, all have a common grandma.. two of them had steers for their first calves, and both raised them well.. Mega weaned hers at about 675, and Cenci at about 600.. Chroma had a heifer for the first two calves, the first one was smaller, at about 500, but looked nice, second one was really nice and about 625 (Tifa) that I kept.. she ought to be bred now..
This year Chroma and Cenci have steer calves, Mega has a heifer. they all look like they're going to push 700 lb if I leave them on for the full 205 days.. all built like brick shthouses too.. sure makes me smile when I look at them

 

[Katpau]

kaput if you think that is why Bando 155 was used so heavy you are wrong. He was tallest bull in the angus breed in the frame race era. Dam bull looked like a Holstein bull without spots

I am going to guess from your comment that Angus is not a breed that you have a great deal of familiarity with. I should probably let it go, but others read this, and I hate to let you pass on such a complete misstatement of facts. I grew up with Dairy cows and Bando did NOT look like any Holstein bull I have ever seen. There were some similarities to certain Jersey bulls, but he looked Angus. I admit that I did not care for his looks, but I have seen plenty of bulls in today's Semen Catalogs that I like even less. Tehama Bando's height had little if any to do with his popularity. He was born in 1980. His EPD's are high in accuracy which indicate there was plenty of data turned in and he was by most standards a very average size bull. His yearling height (YH) EPD is +.2 when the average for the breed at that time was +.1. Not the bull you would breed to in order to increase height. Compare that to Scotch Cap born in 1982 with a +1.1 YH, or Power Play born in 1977, also +1.1 YH, AAR New Trend born in 1981 +.8, VDAR New Trend 315, +1.0 YH, and even Shearbrook Shoshone born 1971 +.6 YH. I could go on, but I think I prove my point. It was NOT about height.

In his day Tehama Bando was a calving ease bull who still managed to produce good growth. His Weaning weight EPD stood at +26 when the breed average was at +1. His daughters weaned heavy calves in their day as evidenced by a proven milk EPD of +19 when breed average was 0. What this means is that you could expect an average 19 more pounds of weaning weight out of calves from his daughters compared to daughters of the average bull. Those daughters settled as heifers at a much higher rate than those of other bulls. His Heifer pregnancy ratio is at +18.1 compared to the 1980 breed average of +5.8. He continues to excel over todays average bull in that category. The most recently available figures are from 2013 when Heifer pregnancy average for the breed was at +10.1. Cows that breed up every year and bring home an average calf are worth much more to me than a cow that has an exceptional calf 2 or 3 years and then takes a vacation.

 

[Katpau]

I should perhaps add that his daughters also earned themselves a CEM (calving ease maternal) of +9 when breed average was only at 0. That is still slightly better than todays breed average of +8. This means worry free cows that calved unassisted. Their $EN of $16.59 indicates these were the kind of cows that could survive and raise a calf in some tough conditions without supplemental feeding.

There were plenty of good reasons to use Bando 155, but his height was probably not a major factor.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Katpau, the Tehama Angus Ranch is just down the street from me. In fact I sat with them at a cattlemen's dinner a couple years ago.

 

[Katpau]

That is a pretty tough area for cattle if you don't have irrigation. Even if you do, I hear most water rights have been cut off. I visited Tehama year before last in May, and pastures were already dried up. I imagine it is worse this year. I heard they had to sell off quite a few cows. It is very pretty there, but I am afraid that heat would kill me. It seems like every time I go there it is +100 degrees. Even in September. We are not as dry up here, but bad enough to be declared a drought county. Fire season started at least a month early, and I pray we don't have any fires on our Ranch.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

It also seems oldtimer doesn't give a rats azz. What any of us think. To you sir. My respect :tiphat:[/quote]
Don't know if he cares or not, but I got 20 dollars says he ain't gonna change his breeding program to please :lol:

 

[TexasBred]

Lets be honest if these heifers were fed grain heavy for a few months a lot of the comments wouldn't be as harsh.
As others said before some of the ugliest cows can really get the job done. I bought an old cow several years ago for $750. She is a grouchy old cantankerous b*tch that looks like a short pot bellied sack of potatoes but she normally raises one of the best calves. This spring I sold a 7 month old steer calf right off of her for almost $1500. I would take a field full of ugly cows just like her.

So you would keep her offspring for replacements? We're not talking about market calves here. We're talking about replacement heifers and hoping the next generation will always perform even better than the previous generation. Sale barns prove everyday that "everything" will sell.

 

[Nesikep]

They wouldn't be what I'd keep for replacements now (I would have perhaps 10 years ago) but perhaps for the environment they're in they do very well... Maybe they have a calf we'd consider average every year for 15 years, leading to a cull rate of only a couple percent... I wouldn't do well raising longhorns where I am, but they do have their place.. typically the better the food the meatier an animal you can have