Production of Baldies

[badroute]

Interesting discussion. I can relate as I run straight black cows and run black bulls along with hereford bulls also. I sell all the steer calves right off the cow and my baldies are usually 40 pounds heavier. I have heard of the difference being as much as 80 pounds but that is an extreme case in being that fella nver ran very good bulls to start with until he bought a few good hereford bulls to put on his black cows. The thing about hereford bulls in my area is that they are cheap. Quality-wise a $3000 hereford bull would be equal to a $6 or 8000 angus bull.

I sort my heifer calves, baldies from straight blacks and keep the straight blacks as replacements. The real kicker in the deal is that I am able to send a potload of baldie replacement heifers back east and am able to get better than steer price for them. I dont mean to brag or toot my own horn but this is a good example of the baldie advantage.


And by the way I dont put my hereford bulls on my bottom end cows. I run the hereford bulls and black bulls together in almost every breeding pasture.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Do you calve a higher percentage of baldies or straight blacks as opposed to the number of Herefords/Angus bulls? Or to put it another way, which bulls seem to cover more cows?

 

[badroute]

In my case if I have a 100 head in one pasture I'll put in 2 black bulls and 2 hereford bulls. Most years I get more baldie calves since I usually have a black bull get beat up not even a heat cycle in. I usually replace that black bull with either a yearling black or hereford. Regardless they dont do nearly the breeding as the older bulls so the hereford bulls get the majority covered. I'd say smewhere around 60/40.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In my case if I have a 100 head in one pasture I'll put in 2 black bulls and 2 hereford bulls. Most years I get more baldie calves since I usually have a black bull get beat up not even a heat cycle in. I usually replace that black bull with either a yearling black or hereford. Regardless they dont do nearly the breeding as the older bulls so the hereford bulls get the majority covered. I'd say smewhere around 60/40.

That's not quite an equal comparison if the 2 Hereford bulls are older than the 2 original Angus bulls.
But, if you use a quality bull of ANY breed other than Angus to cover your Angus cows, you should ALWAYS get heavier calves just because of the crossbreeding.

 

[dun]

But, if you use a quality bull of ANY breed other than Angus to cover your Angus cows, you should ALWAYS get heavier calves just because of the crossbreeding.

I think that the results may be disingenuous, or maybe unintentionally misleading. It's specified using Hereford bulls on Angus based cows, of course the resulting calves should be heivier then those sired by an Angus bull. But what about using an Angus bull on Hereford based cows?

 

[Limomike]

Intesting question dun....
I am going to be testing out my Limo bull (black) and my black Angus bull on two hereford cows this next year. See which one produces the best overall gainer.

 

[dun]

Intesting question dun....
I am going to be testing out my Limo bull (black) and my black Angus bull on two hereford cows this next year. See which one produces the best overall gainer.

Are the calaves from the same bulls equal when bred to cows of their own breed? If not it wouldn;t be an equal comparison.

 

[Limomike]

got a point there dun... cows are not from the same bull. I guess it will only give me a slight comparison.

 

[dun]

got a point there dun... cows are not from the same bull. I guess it will only give me a slight comparison.

Plus unless the cows have some continental in them you would expect those sired by the continental bull to be heavier srictly form the increased heterosis of crossing british and continental.

 

[Limomike]

got a point there dun... cows are not from the same bull. I guess it will only give me a slight comparison.

Plus unless the cows have some continental in them you would expect those sired by the continental bull to be heavier srictly form the increased heterosis of crossing british and continental.

thats true. But, These cows are pure bred polled herefords.
Should get a baldy out of them anyway.

 

[badroute]

I believe that this is an equal comparison. I never said that the 2 original angus bulls were younger, all I said was the spare bull I put in was younger the the three reamianing bulls. The point I was trying to make is that on my operation the hereford bulls usually settle more cows since they are usually more interseted in the back end of a cow than they are fighting. I cannnot stress enough that this is typical of my operation and my operation only. I do not want generalize the statement that hereford bulls cover more cows than angus bulls do because I'll bet you there are a ton of people who would let me know otherwise. And furthermore who am I to tell an angus breeder that hereford bulls will cover more cows on his operation. Every situation is different and unique and therefore cannot be replicated anywhere by anyone.

Also I completely agree with you on the topic of heavier calves due to crossbreeding. If you look at my original post I stated that I was not only in the crossbreeding business to wean heavier calves but to also supply F1 baldie replacement heifers to farmers and ranchers in the midwest who so desire this type of animal. It was never about what certain mating will wean a heavier calf. I wrote the first post just to say there is more to crossbreeding than showing up at the sale born with a bunch of soggy steer calves.

 

[jscunn]

This got me to do some digging. We ran four contemporary groups last year, two on the east side (steers and heifers) and two on the west side. The cows were intermingled Hereford and Angus and all bred to Angus bulls. The only difference was the cows on the east side had more access to winter pasture. These are the averages for all the heifer calves on the place.

Black baldies
act. WW 600
Age 201
Adjusted WW 611
Weaning Wt Ratio 98

Angus Heifers
act WW 586
Age 200
Adjusted WW 609
Weaning Wt Ratio 102

The ratio is different because there was not a 50/50 split on the cows between East and West. The Angus heifers adjusted higher due to age of dam adjustments. The steers were basically the same the was a larger split in the age difference but the BB steers weighed more and were older. Like I have said in the past Heterosis is not the end all be all, concentrate on quality no matter the color of the hide.

I can tell you right now what our replacement heifers will be next year, because those cows are that good. I can also tell you what the first load of baldie heifers to be sold will be, because their mommas are that good.

 

[Brandonm2]

But, if you use a quality bull of ANY breed other than Angus to cover your Angus cows, you should ALWAYS get heavier calves just because of the crossbreeding.

I think that the results may be disingenuous, or maybe unintentionally misleading. It's specified using Hereford bulls on Angus based cows, of course the resulting calves should be heivier then those sired by an Angus bull. But what about using an Angus bull on Hereford based cows?

There is NOTHING intentionally misleading about the study. Since the vast majority of the nation's cow herd is now black (many of them 7/8s Angus or more) the question most commerical breeds have is should they crossbreed and bring in a second breed OR should they straightbreed Angus, as some in the Angus assn are arguing

"In today's consumer-driven markets straightbred cow herds are making sense (dollars and cents) for many, many astute cattlemen." (Larry Corah, President CAB; "Maybe there is a Reason (or 10 Reasons)"(to straightbreed Angus), pg 26-28; 'Angus Beef Bulletin', October 2007)
(Angus Bulletin).

The study tested the theory of 'will Black Angus on Black Angus cows surpass the results of Hereford on Black Angus cows?' On the grid they sold under, no the crossbreds predictably paid more in the longrun than the straightbreds. Logically, (and based on past research) you would get a similar benefit from using Angus bulls on straight Hereford cows, though the number of straight Hereford cows has been declining for 40 years.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

[
Then why expect Angus breeders to use Hereford bulls? IMO, you have a basic problem in that you're probably the only person who knows you're trying to improve the Hereford breed. I doubt the guy running a crossbred herd down the road cares. He just wants a bull that will work and improve his calf crop. And maybe help improve the cow herd if he retains heifers. But you should contine to strive for improvement because it's the right thing to do.

May be this will help someone's neighber down the road understand a value for using Hereford instead of continually using Angus. And yes we all need to continuely strive for improvement.


Hereford Heterosis Advantage - (read the report - 350kbytes)

Preliminary research shows a $78 advantage for Hereford-sired calves compared to Angus-sired calves in a real-world commercial setting.

The American Hereford Association (AHA) announced the first-year results of a heterosis study being conducted in cooperation with California State University, Chico; Lacey Livestock; Harris Feeding Co.; and Harris Ranch Beef Co. The objective of the research project was to conduct a controlled crossbreeding system, comparing progeny sired by Hereford and Angus bulls, under commercial conditions, emphasizing economic differences at the ranch, feedlot and packing plant.

Ten Hereford bulls selected for specific expected progeny differences (EPDs) were matched with 10 Angus bulls of comparable genetics. Bulls were randomly mated to 400 mature Angus-based cows. All calves were identified with electronic identification (EID) tags and DNA samples were taken to determine parentage. All cattle had equal access to comparable feed resources and management in extensive, relatively harsh environments.

The differences in weaning performance, feedlot performance, carcass value and overall profitability were measured on the Angus- and Hereford-sired calves. According to Jack Ward, AHA chief operating officer and director of breed improvement, “Preliminary data suggests a significant economic advantage of $86 per head in the feedlot phase for the Hereford-sired calves.

“Primary differences were gain, feed efficiency, morbidity and mortality, resulting in a lower cost of gain, $11.94 per hundredweight (cwt.); which equates to a $7.32 per cwt. difference when mortality of the Angus-sired steers was excluded,” Ward said. He added that the Angus-sired group had a significant advantage in quality grade, partially offsetting the value in the feedlot. “However, the net advantage favored the Hereford-sired cattle by nearly $78 per head for the entire production cycle,” Ward said.



All results of this study are based on limited numbers from year one. To have more numbers for the project in year two and three, Lacey Livestock increased the number of cows to 600 for the remainder of the study. The backgrounding, feedlot and carcass trial will be repeated in 2008 and 2009. The effect of maternal heterosis will be determined by tracking productivity of the replacement heifers that were retained and identified to a sire. The objective is to attempt to determine lifetime productivity and profitability differences between sire groups.

Well, I for one have noticed no difference in prices on our hereford sired vs. Angus sired calves. But then again, my calves have yet to read that particular study. Quality animals sell as quality animals around here. Baldies have done well for us, as have hereford and angus. The studies the experts put out are good reading I guess, but good cows are good cows. Don't read that study to your calves though, some of them might start to feel bad about themselves.

This study which I read in its entirety in Hereford World, was not about the price per pound at the salebarn. It tracked the total cost of production, and what the total income was from each animal. The Hereford sired calves had a higher ADG on feed, were more efficient convertors, and had a lower morbidity rate. The fact that there was a mortality rate among the straight blacks that was non-existent among the baldies also helped the Hereford sired calves' bottom line. That doesn't mean that the results will be the same next year, but that's what they were. I for one was chagrined that the baldies were behind in quality grade. I think they should kick every Line One bull out of the study and stack the deck with more Feltons and Mark Donalds. I think that would narrow the gap tremendously. Forgive me, Line One fans, but all in all I am not impressed with Line One cattle, especially regarding IMF.

 

[LFF]

This study which I read in its entirety in Hereford World, was not about the price per pound at the salebarn. It tracked the total cost of production, and what the total income was from each animal. The Hereford sired calves had a higher ADG on feed, were more efficient convertors, and had a lower morbidity rate. The fact that there was a mortality rate among the straight blacks that was non-existent among the baldies also helped the Hereford sired calves' bottom line. That doesn't mean that the results will be the same next year, but that's what they were. I for one was chagrined that the baldies were behind in quality grade. I think they should kick every Line One bull out of the study and stack the deck with more Feltons and Mark Donalds. I think that would narrow the gap tremendously. Forgive me, Line One fans, but all in all I am not impressed with Line One cattle, especially regarding IMF.

I agree with some Feltons rating equal to Angus sires for marbling. I wonder how long it is going to take for most Hereford breeders to embrace the lines that marble?

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Knoll Crest Farms predominantly use Feltons bloodlines. They also raise Angus. I have seen their ads in the past advertising some of their Hereford bulls as ratioing over 100% for IMF even when compared to their Angus bulls. Whether you like the body type of cattle or not, Ellis Farms is at the forefront of the carcass race in the Hereford breed. They have a lot of Feltons genetics. Gerber Watchfire 117F is Feltons bred and has been promoted as a strong IMF sire. The list could go on and on.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just remember - there is a correlation between IMF & lighter muscled cattle. Angus breed has been chasing IMF and have lost their muscling.
No - I don't have the article I read, but it sure struck home, when I read about the link of IMF & light muscle. Also, laid-back, low libido bulls tend to have higher IMF. (seems to make sense - lazy = more fat.)
We all need to be careful about setting single trait goals. I'm not implying that is what was meant on this thread, just thinking out loud.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Just remember - there is a correlation between IMF & lighter muscled cattle. Angus breed has been chasing IMF and have lost their muscling.
No - I don't have the article I read, but it sure struck home, when I read about the link of IMF & light muscle. Also, laid-back, low libido bulls tend to have higher IMF. (seems to make sense - lazy = more fat.)
We all need to be careful about setting single trait goals. I'm not implying that is what was meant on this thread, just thinking out loud.

I see your point, but I am sure that the most muscular, correct bloodlines in the Hereford breed also happen to be among the highest in quality grading. I speak specifically of a couple to four lines of Herefords that are more true to their roots, some of them having never joined the gutless wonder chase. Having said that, at least one of these lines might sacrifice some weaning weight, but I believe that they could be judiciously used in conjunction with the best of the more modern versions to correct some flaws, adding thickness, muscle, and efficiency while not sacrificing marbling and IMF.