Pretty ticked off

[redcowsrule33]

Back to the original post, I just got a catalog from a breeder that is selling a bunch of "commercial" heifers - looked at them closer and they are all confirmed genetic defect carriers. I wasn't sure if I was shocked, mad, or just disappointed. Big name operation.

 

[JHH]

Back to the original post, I just got a catalog from a breeder that is selling a bunch of "commercial" heifers - looked at them closer and they are all confirmed genetic defect carriers. I wasn't sure if I was shocked, mad, or just disappointed. Big name operation.

I understand, but then again I dont. IF we would breed them to another breed (crossbreed them) then sell ALL the progeny what would it hurt. Doesn't it take two to have the problem? Or is it just a roll of the dice and you get what you get at calving time? I havent keept up on the problems as they seem to be mainly related to black cattle. And I dont intend to have black herefords ( might have a few baldies but no black herefords )

 

[redcowsrule33]

No, Red Angus Herefords and Shorthorns have issues, too. My thing is why introduce a potential problem? It can lurk in the herd for all eternity. There are plenty of unknown problems you can buy, why do it on purpose? My feeling is on these animals as a breeder is if she's that good, keep her and test her progeny so you know you aren't perpetuating the problem. If she's not good enough, feed her out and eat her. I'll repeat what has been said before, not every heifer deserves to be a cow. Unless you are a strictly terminal herd (and you know all your calves are slaughtered) to me it's irresponsible. JMO.

 

[Oldtimer]

Back to the original post, I just got a catalog from a breeder that is selling a bunch of "commercial" heifers - looked at them closer and they are all confirmed genetic defect carriers. I wasn't sure if I was shocked, mad, or just disappointed. Big name operation.

I understand, but then again I dont. IF we would breed them to another breed (crossbreed them) then sell ALL the progeny what would it hurt. Doesn't it take two to have the problem? Or is it just a roll of the dice and you get what you get at calving time? I havent keept up on the problems as they seem to be mainly related to black cattle. And I dont intend to have black herefords ( might have a few baldies but no black herefords )

I was just looking at a catalog where a Breeder is doing the same with all his cows and heifers that tested positive- selling them as commercial after his bull sale (of bulls tested FREE)....BUT he did say in the catalog that they had tested positive- and would work in a commercial herd IF bred to clean bulls and not keep the heifer calves...
Thats the big IF and how many more times down the line they change hands- and IF the next owner will be so honest with their background...And that makes you wonder how many commercial cattle exchanging hands are carriers-but will never be tested- in the several breeds that are affected...

An interesting comment in the catalog "Keep in mind the NH and AM carriers primarily affect the registerd breeder and not the commercial breeder".. :???:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Just picked up the mail, got a sale catalog from Express. Seems to be alot of commerical females in it. But maybe not 225 registered and commercial females. You can download the catalog www.ExpressRanches.com if you want to look.

 

[Brandonm22]

A commercial guy that was careful to always buy tested free bulls or who planned to go Hereford on the heifers and Charolais or Brahman on the generation after that wouldn't have any problems.

 

[JHH]

No, Red Angus Herefords and Shorthorns have issues, too. My thing is why introduce a potential problem? It can lurk in the herd for all eternity. There are plenty of unknown problems you can buy, why do it on purpose? My feeling is on these animals as a breeder is if she's that good, keep her and test her progeny so you know you aren't perpetuating the problem. If she's not good enough, feed her out and eat her. I'll repeat what has been said before, not every heifer deserves to be a cow. Unless you are a strictly terminal herd (and you know all your calves are slaughtered) to me it's irresponsible. JMO.

This is what I meant. They would all have to be sold as feeders or whatever. I can see ol joe farmer keeping replacements because they look good. Then we have a problem again. It is best to get rid of them. I have to agree on that. A RESPOSIBLE person might be ok but not the average public rancher who is uninformed.

My neighbor has reg black angus and says there is not a problem. Wonder how many will end up not tested and sold as bulls? I hope none. April will tell me.

 

[Frankie]

I got another catalog. Same thing. I'll try not to paint with too broad a brush, but both these guys are show people. Glover Cattle Co was the first catalog and this latest one comes from Pollard. I don't know much about Glover expect they're big show jocks and, I think, fairly new with Angus. But I'd think that Dr. Pollard can certainly afford to ship these animals off to slaughter. Grrrr. Can't wait to see Express' catalog. :roll:

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>A commercial guy that was careful to always buy tested free bulls or who planned to go Hereford on the heifers and Charolais or Brahman on the generation after that wouldn't have any problems.<<

The problem is not the first commercial user (if he knows what he is doing) it is the subsequent heifer buyers. The recessive genes can stay in the background along time until another commercial man buys heifers that are carriers and his bull(s) is a carrier. You can't just hide these genes in the woodpile. They will crawl out.

 

[Brandonm22]

Still that person would ONLY have problems if he bought Carrier bulls to breed to the carrier heifers. If somebody is so stupid that they are breeding "black" heifers of unknown genetics to a "black bull" of unknown genetics they almost DESERVE to get burned. At some point, the responsibility is on the cattleman's part to keep informed as to what is going on in the industry and act on that knowledge. Get a Cattle Today subscription and read up on the business. I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.<<

I guess that's where you and I part courses. I see it as a breeder's responsibility to prevent a KNOWN genetic defect from getting out into the cattle population at large.

Your "screw the other guy ten years from now" line of thinking is indicative of our problems in society as a whole. It's the old Keyne's thought: "In the long run, we're all dead anyways".

Not my line of thinking.

 

[Frankie]

Still that person would ONLY have problems if he bought Carrier bulls to breed to the carrier heifers. If somebody is so stupid that they are breeding "black" heifers of unknown genetics to a "black bull" of unknown genetics they almost DESERVE to get burned. At some point, the responsibility is on the cattleman's part to keep informed as to what is going on in the industry and act on that knowledge. Get a Cattle Today subscription and read up on the business. I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.

I can't agree that a commercial cattleman "almost deserve to get burned." Yes, they should know what they're buying and yes, both these catalogs that I've received have indicated the status of all the carriers they've tested, but, IMO, it still ain't right. Especially with one of these breeders being a wealthy man who should be able to afford to sell them into the meat market. Very, very disappointing to me to see that. If you're buying Angus bulls in Oklahoma this year, pay attention!

Very interesting, though. I see neither Pollard nor Express' sales are listed in the sale books on the Angus site. Hmmm.

Edited: Guess I should add that the VanNice catalog (sale 2/25) says they're not selling any carriers. I like that.

 

[Brandonm22]

Still that person would ONLY have problems if he bought Carrier bulls to breed to the carrier heifers. If somebody is so stupid that they are breeding "black" heifers of unknown genetics to a "black bull" of unknown genetics they almost DESERVE to get burned. At some point, the responsibility is on the cattleman's part to keep informed as to what is going on in the industry and act on that knowledge. Get a Cattle Today subscription and read up on the business. I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.

I can't agree that a commercial cattleman "almost deserve to get burned." Yes, they should know what they're buying and yes, both these catalogs that I've received have indicated the status of all the carriers they've tested, but, IMO, it still ain't right. Especially with one of these breeders being a wealthy man who should be able to afford to sell them into the meat market. Very, very disappointing to me to see that. If you're buying Angus bulls in Oklahoma this year, pay attention!

Edited: Guess I should add that the VanNice catalog (sale 2/25) says they're not selling any carriers. I like that.

Actually, I was responding to the Wichitalineman response to my statement that if someone knew what they were doing and avoided using carrier bulls on these carrier heifers they would be all right. He was worried about the guy who bought the next generation at the stockyard. I think this thing is already so wide spread that if you go to the sale barns and pick up 100 black calves of unknown origin, you either need to test them for the gene, or just treat them like they are carrriers and that means using tested free Angus bulls or some other breed. The commercial cattleman has a responsibility to stay current on the industry.

 

[dun]

Still that person would ONLY have problems if he bought Carrier bulls to breed to the carrier heifers. If somebody is so stupid that they are breeding "black" heifers of unknown genetics to a "black bull" of unknown genetics they almost DESERVE to get burned. At some point, the responsibility is on the cattleman's part to keep informed as to what is going on in the industry and act on that knowledge. Get a Cattle Today subscription and read up on the business. I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.

This line of thinking falls right into the category of the discalimer you see in a lot of new storys "speaking on condition of anonymity because he wasn;t cleared to discuss it".
Personal integrity seems to be absent a lot lately

 

[Brandonm22]

I will let yall debate the ethics all day long. At the end of the day we all know that that is what is going to happen with these "commercial" heifers. They are going into the nation's cow herd and they (along with hundreds of thousands of other commercial cows carrying the same defect out there before we knew we had a problem) are going to produce carrier heifers for the next 15 years or so. Anybody buying black (and after a couple generations they won't all be black) heifers needs to be aware that that gene is out there in the herd and there is no way that you or I talking about silly "ethics" is going to put that genie back in the bottle. If somebody is going to make their living in this business it is up to them to be aware of all the pitfalls, dangers, and changes in the biz over time.

 

[Hereford76]

Personal integrity seems to be absent a lot lately

ya - but integrity has no value today to people like brandon and i want to list a few other names active at this place as the same.

to me it is almost as if they have a lot to lose by doing what is right and what would have made all this talk a non issue instead of what it is today.

SillyEthics[/u]22":1jkjyu4y]Still that person would ONLY have problems if he bought Carrier bulls to breed to the carrier heifers. If somebody is so stupid that they are breeding "black" heifers of unknown genetics to a "black bull" of unknown genetics they almost DESERVE to get burned. At some point, the responsibility is on the cattleman's part to keep informed as to what is going on in the industry and act on that knowledge. Get a Cattle Today subscription and read up on the business. I really am not losing any sleep at all over what happens some guy 5-20 years from now who is still oblivious to all of this that buys all his replacements through a stockyard.

I can't agree that a commercial cattleman "almost deserve to get burned." Yes, they should know what they're buying and yes, both these catalogs that I've received have indicated the status of all the carriers they've tested, but, IMO, it still ain't right. Especially with one of these breeders being a wealthy man who should be able to afford to sell them into the meat market. Very, very disappointing to me to see that. If you're buying Angus bulls in Oklahoma this year, pay attention!

Brandon's one-liner fits in with my definition of the modern day fly by night purebred breeder and their thought process

Frankiess thought - that is that little bit of integrity most don't put a value to anymore

 

[Brandonm22]

Hey, the pastures and the stockyards are full of heifer calves sired by sons, grandsons, great grandsons and great great grandsons of Precision 1680 and there is probably more out there in the pipeline multiplying as we speak. I am not saying what people should or should not do with those cattle. Go talk to your preacher about ethics. ALL that I am saying is that the MODERN INFORMED cattle buyer should KNOW this by now and if they don't then they really should not be in this business. If you are buying black heifers for replacements and you don't know the source and the pedigrees, you might want to DNA test them for the defect (AM or NH) or AT LEAST breed them to bulls known to be free of both defects as a precaution.

 

[Hereford76]

Hey, the pastures and the stockyards are full of heifer calves sired by sons, grandsons, great grandsons and great great grandsons of Precision 1680 and there is probably more out there in the pipeline multiplying as we speak. I am not saying what people should or should not do with those cattle. Go talk to your preacher about ethics. ALL that I am saying is that the MODERN INFORMED cattle buyer should KNOW this by now and if they don't then they really should not be in this business. If you are buying black heifers for replacements and you don't know the source and the pedigrees, you might want to DNA test them for the defect (AM or NH) or AT LEAST breed them to bulls known to be free of both defects as a precaution.

i think you are the one and breeders with your thought process are the ones that shouldn't be in the business.

you are the same as the purebred breeder that thought the commercial man was going to be too stupid to know any different anyhow and you could just sweep the problem under the rug and get away with it. now that there is a problem you are the same as the purebred breeder that says that same commercial cowman is stupid if he gets burned by the problem people like you don't care about. now its all about how they can save their butts.

 

[Brandonm22]

Hey, I called for the Angus Assn to get out front of this thing and stop registering carriers as early as possible. I was very much in support of the orginal AM policy and was opposed to this ridiculously long extension of the window in which you can register carriers. That weaker policy is still a whole lot tougher than the Hereford genetic defect policy. I suspect there will be IE carriers who will be registering untested calves when we are both long dead. If you are an accountant who doesn't stay current on the tax code you are going to be a very bad accountant. If you are a doctor who doesn't read up and learn the newest treatments, techniques, and medications in time you will be a quack. If you are a cattleman who hasn't learned anything in ten years and is blissfully unaware of any of this, I am sorry but I think you are incompetent.......and a lot of those incompetent cattlemen can outwork, outride, and out hussle me all day long, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't doing their job well.

 

[dun]

I guess it's ok for someone just getting started that doesn;t know what questions to ask to get screwed by unscrupulous breeders that are passing of genetic defect cattle. After all, what does one person having problems that he isn;t even aware of popping up mean in the grand scheme of things.