Nut on nuts off

[Hoser]

I went to look at a pen of bulls from a new breeder in my area. They definitely have money judging on the huge barn, metal corrals and fancy herd they were able to put together in a few years. I liked 2/3 of their bulls but thought the bottom 1/3 should have been cut. They told me they bought the best cows and bulls they could find so that they wouldn't have to cull any bulls or heifers.
Does anyone else do this? I thought if you always wanted to improve your herd you should keep a sharp knife, no matter what stage your at.
This got me curious, all the bull breeders on here, what percentage of your bulls keep their nuts typically? While we're on the subject, what percentage of your heifers do you consider replacement quality? Commercial or purebred.

 

[shaz]

I've seen a lot of people who need to sell cows due to drought and they always say "I've got too much invested in genetics".

 

[Hoser]

I've seen a lot of people who need to sell cows due to drought and they always say "I've got too much invested in genetics".

Sounds to me like they didn't plan for the worst. I always keep less cows than my grass can handle then stock the rest with yearlings. That way I don't have to sell good cows.

 

[A.J.]

It sounds like they might be some of those folks that believe just because and animal can be registered it should be. I don't care how much you spend on bulls and cows, there will always be some calves that are just meant to be feeders and not seedstock. It doesn't mean anything was done wrong with the breeding or that a calf is bad, sometimes that's just how a calf turns out. If I was a seedstock producer I would rather have a reputation for Quality and being particular with cattle I offered for sale. You're more likely to have satisfied, repeat customers by having strict culling practices.

 

[Rydero]

I'd leave without a bull not long after they said that to me.

 

[Hoser]

Thanks for reaffirming my decision to leave bulless.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

An old breeder told me once, a man should cut AT LEAST 75% of his bulls born, and his bottom 20% were better than most top 50%.
Think most of his reason was, that you averaged out better having fewer bulls to sell. It created demand for his bull from being a limited number.

But nowadays with everyone AIing to "super duper black bull OU812" they believe every bull is a winner.

 

[Ky hills]

But nowadays with everyone AIing to "super duper black bull OU812" they believe every bull is a winner.

That right there is a lot of the problem, sellers think they have a winner, and a lot buyers hear the names and think its a winner regardless of what it looks like. After all the pedigree is breed royalty and the numbers are top percentiles.

 

[Son of Butch]

I went to look at a pen of bulls from a new breeder in my area.
I liked 2/3 of their bulls but thought the bottom 1/3 should have been cut.

This got me curious, all the bull breeders on here, what percentage of your bulls keep their nuts typically? While we're on the subject, what percentage of your heifers do you consider replacement quality?

Not a breeder, so very rare as to bulls.
From many years of observing other people's herds of cattle, hogs ect.
My conclusion is most animals can usually be sorted easiest in to 3 groups.
1/3 top performers 1/3 average-good 1/3 under performing
imo for genetic advancement select no more than the top 1/3 for breeding

But that doesn't preclude anyone who wants to cull the other 2/3 by selling to
others for breeding stock. It happens all of the time and is very much a buyer beware situation.

 

[SBMF 2015]

We don't have the best cattle in the world, but I guarantee we have better cattle than we did twenty years ago. We got here because only the top 20% of heifers get to go through a pre breeding exam. Some of those don't pelvic measure. Then there's always one that doesn't breed that should have. By the time we calve we are usually down to 14 or 15 hfrs for every 100 cows.

We buy Hereford bulls from a very reputable breeder. We were looking over a pen of weanling bull calves. A buddy picked out a very impressive, thick made calf. The herdsman told us that he was not for sale as a bull because he weighed over 100lbs when he was born. He said they would cut him and sell him as a club calf. They did not believe in passing on those heavy genetics.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Inquire as to calving season of your breeder. Select from bulls born in first 30 days of their calving season.
Select your own replacements from calves born in the first 30 days or your own calving season.
Herd fertility and production expenses are prime factors to consider. methodology is optional.

 

[Dave]

If a breeder told me that they keep 100% of the bull calves intact I would walk straight to my pickup and leave. No questions asked. Just turn and walk.

 

[Son of Butch]

If a breeder told me that they keep 100% of the bull calves intact I would walk straight to my pickup and leave. No questions asked. Just turn and walk.

I understand the principle, but you might walk right past the best calf in the county.
What about the breeder that keeps 100% - but doesn't tell you?
Seems you have a honest answer bias.

 

[Hoser]

I understand the principle, but you might walk right past the best calf in the county.
What about the breeder that keeps 100% - but doesn't tell you?
Seems you have a honest answer bias.

Good point. One thing I always remember when bull shopping is my grandpa telling me to pick a bull from a pen of nice ones rather than one nice one from a pen of average bulls.

 

[wbvs58]

I develop a few bulls each year from my small herd of around 30 cows. On average I would keep 2/3 intact after weaning. A couple do pick themselves for castration but I usually do have a difficult time selecting the others. I feel that my calf crop is pretty consistent now and often the ones to be cut are later calving or out of heifers and am yet to get a feel for their offspring. I will often keep a bull calf that appears middle of the road growth wise due to mother not a great milker but they develop to be one of the best bulls by the end of winter. The milk will show in the EBV's and some people do not want heavy milkers. I am not a good judge of an animal at first inspection but when I am around them all the time I get to know what I like and dislike about them and am usually happy with what I end up keeping and developing. People that come to inspect my bulls are usually surprised by the quality I have to offer and I am getting repeat business now.
Heifers I keep would average out at 50-60%. I keep the cow herd relatively young.
Ken

 

[gcreekrch]

I like to see everything the breeder has to offer. Cow herd too.

I also prefer breeders who aren't afraid to use their own genetics back into the herd. Using 12 A.I. sires on a smaller herd does nothing for uniformity.
I also like to pick "cow bulls" that I would hope to keep replacements from out of older dams. My theory is most cows don't get old unless they are good and like begets like.

"Heifer bulls" had better be from several generations of lighter bw easy calving bloodlines. Have been bitten a couple time by not following that rule.
And always, ALWAYS insist the breeder provide semen test results!

I am on my way to court over a breeder selling me 8 bulls last summer that were tested: His words ....... I leased another 4 bulls from another breeder that were tested with proof. We put these bulls with 298 heifers and 16 cows for 35 days. A total of 54 heifers and 8 cows were bred. Cost me over $100,000 in the difference to what we received for the empty ones as compared to bred if one factors in an average of 75 to 80% breed up.
Life is good!

 

[Rydero]

I understand the principle, but you might walk right past the best calf in the county.
What about the breeder that keeps 100% - but doesn't tell you?
Seems you have a honest answer bias.

I answered the same.

Keeping 100% indicates a lack of standards or maybe a need financially to sell every one as a bull, maybe both. I wouldn't want to buy half my calf crop's genetics from someone who doesn't have standards. I have standards for temperament, performance, health etc and I'm just a commercial guy. Every animal isn't a keeper - period.

If it's financial how are they going to be like to deal with when there's a problem after they have my money? Probably not very good. There's reputable people with standards to buy from, why even chance it?

He asked and was told they keep them all. So ask every breeder about it. The honest ones will tell him what their cull criteria are. A liar isn't going to tell the truth anyway. It's up to the buyer to try and sniff that out. If I catch a slight hint of a liar I'm gone too, doesn't matter how nice the cattle are. My cattle aren't good enough or bad enough to need the best bull in the country, lol.

 

[MurraysMutts]

I answered the same.

Keeping 100% indicates a lack of standards or maybe a need financially to sell every one as a bull, maybe both. I wouldn't want to buy half my calf crop's genetics from someone who doesn't have standards. I have standards for temperament, performance, health etc and I'm just a commercial guy. Every animal isn't a keeper - period.

If it's financial how are they going to be like to deal with when there's a problem after they have my money? Probably not very good. There's reputable people with standards to buy from, why even chance it?

He asked and was told they keep them all. So ask every breeder about it. The honest ones will tell him what their cull criteria are. A liar isn't going to tell the truth anyway. It's up to the buyer to try and sniff that out. If I catch a slight hint of a liar I'm gone too, doesn't matter how nice the cattle are. My cattle aren't good enough or bad enough to need the best bull in the country, lol.

Mine are a bit picky at one place....
They off'ed 2 bulls they didnt care for last season!

 

[Rydero]

Mine are a bit picky at one place....
They off'ed 2 bulls they didnt care for last season!

Oh that's not cool.

One time I was looking at bulls where I'd.bought one before and things had gone downhill. He had yearlings mostly so being nice I just said I needed an older bull. He offered me a 3 year old that he'd paid $20,000 for less than $5000. He was supposed to be for heifers but the calves were too big off him. He should be good for.cows...he had bad feet and a bit of a limp, so lousey he hardly had any hair and no condition. It was a little awkward a couple weeks later when I bought a bull at auction and the guy was sitting right behind me, lol.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

This past year, we castrated 60% of our bull calves when they went through the chute at 4 months of age. The ones that we left intact are 11 months old currently, but of that group, I think we will cut another 10% of them before April comes around. I would definitely be wary of purchasing from an operation that does not castrate any of their bulls. They may have some quality individuals, but I would think that other aspects of their program may be lacking too.
As for the heifers, we have been growing our numbers for the last 10 years or so. We have been retaining the top half for our herd, selling the bottom 20% at the sale barn, and the rest we sell to purebred or commercial breeders private treaty.