Pretty ticked off

[djinwa]

Regarding ethics in general.

Is it unethical if buyers know the defects are there?

Almost seems less ethical to haul cows/bulls to the sale with untestable problems (behavior, etc) with the philosophy of buyer beware. Those should all be killed, right?

 

[Frankie]

if a commercial breeder buys one of the bulls and breeds cross bred cows. will the defect be propagated since you putting it in a totaly non related group, like the angus defect that came through 1608 family as long as you dont inbreed or linebreed then would it matter? i am a commercial breeder and i do look through a lot of sale catalogs and research alot of breeds but some breeders just buy private and wouldn't know. or say papers don't matter i just want calves for a cheap price. then we will be like the old days when dwarfism was seen very commonly commercial & registered. i had a friend that told me of some deformed calves(fawn calf) born in his commercial herd red angus bull on char x cows. brushed it off as one of those things but i told him that there are genetic defects out there in every breed.

I wouldn't know how to answer this. Both parents must be carrying the defect before you get an affected calf. AM and NH are both terminal. The calf is born dead.

In years past, I'd have said if you have red cows, you shouldn't have any AM or NH calves even if you bred the cows to a carrier bull. But we all know that Angus has been added to many gene pools. Even though some animals are red, there may be an Angus lurking back in their family tree somewhere. Maybe just one generation of Angus, but I don't know any way but testing to see if the defect has been carried on through those generations. So know your breeders, know your pedigrees, or ASK if the bull has been tested.

Yes, there are genetic defects in all breeds. They're not new and we'll continue to have them pop up. Changes in DNA could be considered evolution at work, I guess.

 

[Brandonm22]

You are correct. Here is the whole known list of IE carriers. 334 animals to date.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... B8CEF9F98C

I guess that depends on what your definition of "known" is! That's the list of Herefords who have tested positive for IE and the results have been reported to the AHA. There were some tests that weren't reported on that list and animals where tests weren't performed, but the fact that they're an IE carrier is obvious because they are ancestors to tested and confirmed IE carriers and the only possible pedigree link back to the IE originator, HH Advance P242. His sire, HH Advance L932, tested negative for IE.

George

My definition of "known" is pretty simple. Those that I can look up and see their carrier status on a list are "known". All those who's carrier status was never tested for or whose test results were never published or who are suspected because of progeny/ancestor tests are "unknown" to me.

 

[Brandonm22]

if a commercial breeder buys one of the bulls and breeds cross bred cows. will the defect be propagated since you putting it in a totaly non related group, like the angus defect that came through 1608 family as long as you dont inbreed or linebreed then would it matter? i am a commercial breeder and i do look through a lot of sale catalogs and research alot of breeds but some breeders just buy private and wouldn't know. or say papers don't matter i just want calves for a cheap price. then we will be like the old days when dwarfism was seen very commonly commercial & registered. i had a friend that told me of some deformed calves(fawn calf) born in his commercial herd red angus bull on char x cows. brushed it off as one of those things but i told him that there are genetic defects out there in every breed.

Any time you use a carrier bull (whether you know it or not) you are propogating that defect into your herd. Half of his calves will be carriers. From a practical standpoint, crossbreeding severely limits the likelihood of it ever actually surfacing in an economically destructive way. Somebody in a three breed rotational crossbreeding scenario is highly unlikely to ever get a calf that is homozgous for a recessive defect. Mathematically it COULD happen but the probablility is getting so small as to really not be a concern. If you went one step farther and were careful to use outcrosses to the bulls of that breed you used previously in the rotation, you could just about eliminate the possibility of homzygous calves being born. From a practical standpoint, the industry could eliminate these kinds of problems if we would establish testing herds where young AI sires were bred back to their daughters. I am completely at a loss as to why the big four AI companies aren't doing this. They could probably find a a large commercial ranch that would do the testing for them for $5000 at tax time (or Christmas) and the cost of the AIing.

 

[Oldtimer]

OK- lets throw one more curve into the situation...
The Australian Angus Association has identified and named Bon View Bando 598 ( a popular bull in many angus pedigrees) and a few others as carriers of Fawn Calf Syndrome....BUT the American Angus Association has not recognized any bulls as carriers yet-altho indications are it could effect up to 2-3 % of the AI sires- as they haven't been able to get a test developed ...

I was at a sale the other day where there were bulls being sold sired by a bull that has 598 as mgs (Woodhill Foresight)-- and some bulls that had 598 on both sides of the pedigree within 2-3 generations....

What do these breeders do? Should they inform buyers before the sale? What do they do if a month from now- the test is developed and AAA then finally recognizes 598 as a carrier? And how much will not having a test effect upcoming sales this spring ? I know I'm not going to gamble by buying or using AI anything with the identified carriers in their pedigree...
Just curious- as after the sale we were having quite a discussion- and just like most cattle genetics issues- there definitely was no consensus....

 

[VanC]

OK- lets throw one more curve into the situation...
The Australian Angus Association has identified and named Bon View Bando 598 ( a popular bull in many angus pedigrees) and a few others as carriers of Fawn Calf Syndrome....BUT the American Angus Association has not recognized any bulls as carriers yet-altho indications are it could effect up to 2-3 % of the AI sires- as they haven't been able to get a test developed ...

I was at a sale the other day where there were bulls being sold sired by a bull that has 598 as mgs (Woodhill Foresight)-- and some bulls that had 598 on both sides of the pedigree within 2-3 generations....

What do these breeders do? Should they inform buyers before the sale? What do they do if a month from now- the test is developed and AAA then finally recognizes 598 as a carrier? And how much will not having a test effect upcoming sales this spring ? I know I'm not going to gamble by buying or using AI anything with the identified carriers in their pedigree...
Just curious- as after the sale we were having quite a discussion- and just like most cattle genetics issues- there definitely was no consensus....

How did the Australians identify carriers if no test has been developed? Pedigree? If so, how reliable is that?

 

[Herefords.US]

You are correct. Here is the whole known list of IE carriers. 334 animals to date.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... B8CEF9F98C

I guess that depends on what your definition of "known" is! That's the list of Herefords who have tested positive for IE and the results have been reported to the AHA. There were some tests that weren't reported on that list and animals where tests weren't performed, but the fact that they're an IE carrier is obvious because they are ancestors to tested and confirmed IE carriers and the only possible pedigree link back to the IE originator, HH Advance P242. His sire, HH Advance L932, tested negative for IE.

George

My definition of "known" is pretty simple. Those that I can look up and see their carrier status on a list are "known". All those who's carrier status was never tested for or whose test results were never published or who are suspected because of progeny/ancestor tests are "unknown" to me.

Unknown to you, perhaps, but not unknown to others!

A little education for everyone directly from your "known list": The very first animal on the list is:

-S Advance 160A K150

Here is the link to his pedigree info:
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5A5A2424232F&9=51515D

Notice that his sire has been tested IE free (IEF). So, wonder where he got it from? Common sense would point toward his dam, HH Miss Advance 160A. But there's no "IEC" behind HER name and she doesn't appear on your "known list"!

But every breeder who's closely followed and become informed about the IE problem "knows" that 160A was a carrier. It was through the progeny of another son of hers that the IE problem was first brought to light as more than just a small isolated problem.

George

 

[Oldtimer]

OK- lets throw one more curve into the situation...
The Australian Angus Association has identified and named Bon View Bando 598 ( a popular bull in many angus pedigrees) and a few others as carriers of Fawn Calf Syndrome....BUT the American Angus Association has not recognized any bulls as carriers yet-altho indications are it could effect up to 2-3 % of the AI sires- as they haven't been able to get a test developed ...

I was at a sale the other day where there were bulls being sold sired by a bull that has 598 as mgs (Woodhill Foresight)-- and some bulls that had 598 on both sides of the pedigree within 2-3 generations....

What do these breeders do? Should they inform buyers before the sale? What do they do if a month from now- the test is developed and AAA then finally recognizes 598 as a carrier? And how much will not having a test effect upcoming sales this spring ? I know I'm not going to gamble by buying or using AI anything with the identified carriers in their pedigree...
Just curious- as after the sale we were having quite a discussion- and just like most cattle genetics issues- there definitely was no consensus....

How did the Australians identify carriers if no test has been developed? Pedigree? If so, how reliable is that?

Not a scientist- but I understand the genetic problem has been identified- and these bulls were identified by siring multiple FCS calves- but that the test hasn't been developed because they can't guarantee against false positives yet...

 

[gizmom]

Following is a letter from the Angus Board of Directors to all members concerning AM and NH. As an Angus breeder I am happy that they are addressing the defect issue. Currently every Angus Association member has access to a report on there herd that identifies any potential carriers of either AM or NH it is then up to the breeder to test these animals. IMO it is our responsibility to have these animals tested and if they are found to be carriers they should be culled. The decision we have made on our farm is that we will not sell any bull that test positive as a breeder they just go to town with a big ole red x on their butt. We had gone through and tested every potential (per the afore mentioned report) for AM and thought we were done then here comes NH so we are back in the testing mode again. We have a bull consigned to the Alabama BCIA EPD Bull Sale this month in Montgomery that was a potential carrier he would have been pulled from the sale had he come back positive. I guess this goes back to the Golden Rule Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You it really makes the decision of what we should do pretty easy when you try to live by it.

June 12, 2009

Dear fellow Angus breeders,

Following nearly five days of careful and thoughtful deliberation regarding Arthrogryposis Multiplex (AM) and Neuropathic Hydrocephalus (NH), I am writing to inform you of our decisions regarding this important matter.

The American Angus Association has adopted a combined policy regarding both AM and NH. The combined policy does three things.

First, it expands the window of opportunity in which members can continue to register heifers that are known carriers of these defects. The "sunset" provision for registration of AM-carrier heifers is now December 31, 2011. The "sunset" provision for registration of NH-carrier heifers is June 14, 2012. Beginning January 1, 2010, AM-carrier bulls – and June 15, 2010, NH-carrier bulls – will not be eligible for registration.

Second, it continues to provide commercial producers with the information they need to make sound and scientifically based decisions when investing in Angus genetics. It ensures that all registered bull and heifer calves produced by carrier parents be tested for these defects, and that the results of these tests appear on the animal's registration.

Third, it protects the genetic integrity of Angus. While all cattle breeds are affected on occasion by genetic defects, we believe the open and aggressive policy we put in place last fall – combined with advances in DNA testing and technology – will enable Angus breeders to use sound science to move more rapidly and aggressively away from genetic defects than at any time in history.

While we realize that not everyone will be completely satisfied with this policy, please know your board of directors carefully evaluated all sides of this issue during our discussions this week. I am proud of the work they did.

It is important that you know how seriously we weighed all of your concerns and suggestions. The policy we've approved is based on hundreds of conversations, letters and emails from across the country. We appreciate the input and guidance you gave us, and appreciate your continued support as we build a brighter future for all of us.


http://www.gizmoangu.com

 

[redcowsrule33]

In years past, I'd have said if you have red cows, you shouldn't have any AM or NH calves even if you bred the cows to a carrier bull. But we all know that Angus has been added to many gene pools. Even though some animals are red, there may be an Angus lurking back in their family tree somewhere. Maybe just one generation of Angus, but I don't know any way but testing to see if the defect has been carried on through those generations. So know your breeders, know your pedigrees, or ASK if the bull has been tested.

FWIW, the ASA has a color-coding system to help with determining those in the population that are at risk and require testing. Probably not perfect but is a step in the right direction. You can see it at http://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/s ... /pageId/3/

I'm not familiar enough with other associations that allow breeding up to know if similar systems exist. I am just thankful that we have the technology available to ID carriers so we dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater if something shows up.

 

[Frankie]

FWIW, the ASA has a color-coding system to help with determining those in the population that are at risk and require testing. Probably not perfect but is a step in the right direction. You can see it at http://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/s ... /pageId/3/

I'm not familiar enough with other associations that allow breeding up to know if similar systems exist. I am just thankful that we have the technology available to ID carriers so we dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater if something shows up.

Good for the ASA. I agree about the technology. There are good animals that shouldn't be shunned because of their pedigree, as long as they test clean.

 

[drdosu2002]

Is there a list of bulls on the Aust. Angus association site they consider positive for FCS? We are currently having problems with a prominent low BW AI sire siring calves born with very poor muscle mass, inability to suck at birth, and just overall weakness. The producer bred half his heifers to this bull and the other half to another prominent AI sire. The other bull's calves are very vigorous and hit the ground running. The affected calves, this guy is having to tube to keep alive for 3-5 days before they are able to nurse and maintain on their own. Needless to say, not a good situation!

 

[giftedcowboy]

Hmmmmm....what about the Fawn calf or the long faced dwarf problem in the Angus. The Angus Association didnt even want to talk to me about it. I guess their day will come when the number of these calves is great enough. I was told it was not a problem for the commercial man. I have kept count and the number of calves in born in 2009 in a few herds I know about is 44. NO PROBLEM......

 

[giftedcowboy]

In the fawn calf study that Beevers and Steffens are doing for the Angus assoc they state that the genome sequence is either incomplete or incorrect.....hmmmmmm...maybe the mailman had something to do with the sequences....or maybe it was a whole bus load of unknown "mailmen"....

 

[Oldtimer]

Is there a list of bulls on the Aust. Angus association site they consider positive for FCS? We are currently having problems with a prominent low BW AI sire siring calves born with very poor muscle mass, inability to suck at birth, and just overall weakness. The producer bred half his heifers to this bull and the other half to another prominent AI sire. The other bull's calves are very vigorous and hit the ground running. The affected calves, this guy is having to tube to keep alive for 3-5 days before they are able to nurse and maintain on their own. Needless to say, not a good situation!

There is a list on the site- but I don't know how to manuever their site well enough to find it...

I think they list Premier Independence K N AAA #9958209 - Bon View Bando 598, AAA #11104267 - and a few others ...Other bulls have been mentioned but I don't know if they are listed...
They have traced it back thru those bulls to Freestate Barbara 871 of Kaf AAA 9163301 (which is a 1978 born cow- so gives it 30 years to be spread around)....
So what you need to do is see if Freestate Barbara is in the pedigree background- if so they have the potential to be a carrier....
Luckily- I have no bulls that trace back to her- or any of them so far named- but I do have a few registered cows that do...

 

[drdosu2002]

So far no Freestate Barbara, but he does have her great grandsire in common, Francis of Wye. Probably a stretch though. Yeah every one of these problems eventually impacts the commercial man. This guy runs commercial angus and is going to try to get me the parentage of some of the heifers having these calves. He estimates that 50% of the calves out of the bull in question are affected.

 

[angus9259]

He estimates that 50% of the calves out of the bull in question are affected.

For that to have happened, every single one of his cows must be a carrier as well. Odds of that are just this side of impossible.

 

[angus9259]

= know I'm not going to gamble by buying or using AI anything with the identified carriers in their pedigree...
=

A gamble is a gamble and is all about cost of entry and odds of winning. Eventually the price will get low enough and the odds close enough to your favor that makes the gamble worth it.

 

[Brandonm22]

He estimates that 50% of the calves out of the bull in question are affected.

For that to have happened, every single one of his cows must be a carrier as well. Odds of that are just this side of impossible.

If he stacked three generations of carrier bulls on top of each other he couldn't get to 50% homozygous calves for a recessive condition and what he is talking about sounds much more extreme than fawn calf syndrome. I would be looking hard at nutrition (trace minerals) or disease causes.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

And what about the other bulls calves Brandon?