Pretty ticked off

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Brandonm22

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dun":1m2gbh97 said:
I guess it's ok for someone just getting started that doesn;t know what questions to ask to get screwed by unscrupulous breeders that are passing of genetic defect cattle. After all, what does one person having problems that he isn;t even aware of popping up mean in the grand scheme of things.

Really somebody who is just getting into a business ought to be the "best read" persons out there. Reading is not doing, but you ought to do considerable research before actually going into a business. This has always been an unscrupulous business filled with people you can never trust, but that is true of almost every other industry. I am not endorsing it, I am just accepting the reality of it. There are many many thousands of carrier cows out there by now and in the commercial world they are probably still multiplying and buyers need to know that and understand that. This is something that can be managed; but you need to be aware of it.
 
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Frankie

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I know what Brandon is saying, and I agree with him: bull buyers should do their homework and know what they're buying. They should keep records of the bulls they've used and retained his heifers. But I just can't see selling genetically defective bulls to commercial cattlemen. :( We had to test one cow that we bought and she was ok. I might look at it differently if we'd been knee deep in those genetics, but I hope not.
 

redcowsrule33

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In a perfect world, all bull buyers and cattle raisers would be knowledgable and up-to-date, but in reality most of the people that I have sold to have never heard of genetic defects let alone know their way around basic EPD's. Most beef people around here are small and have them as secondary income. Some want to be taught and others just don't seem to care (or don't want to be bothered with it). But guess what, if something shows up and they start losing calves it will be the bull breeder's fault in their eyes no matter what. And there goes your rep.
 

Brandonm22

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redcowsrule33":37pb625l said:
But guess what, if something shows up and they start losing calves it will be the bull breeder's fault in their eyes no matter what. And there goes your rep.

If your bull customers start losing calves to a known recessive genetic defect there is a test for it really IS your fault. Just as we can safely assume that carrier heifers are in your stockyard pens, it is probably a safe bet that most seedstock guys have commercial customers with carriers in their herds. Selling them a AMC or NHC herd bull is really playing roulette with their cow herd. You can manage around this on the commercial female side, but selling carrier bulls is waaayyy too much risk at this point (if you plan on being in business five years from now). At this point, you probably could be held legally liable for all of his losses if they can find a lawyer who understands genetics.
 

redcowsrule33

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I don't get the disconnect. You are increasing the number of carriers in the general population by selling those heifers. Whether it should cause a problem or not is a non issue to me. If in one scenario it could, we shouldn't be selling it for breeding to anyone, period. If it is that good of an animal, you should keep it or find another breeder that wants to take the risk and keep testing progeny, but not release it to the general population.

Eat your unwanted carriers so you never have to eat your hat.
 

Brandonm22

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I don't think it is that big a deal with the commercial heifers. If you have a preexisting generic herd of black commercial cows you likely already have SOME carrier cows so adding MORE carrier females isn't really going to change your situation much. I am not going to take the financial hit of depoping good cows at the commercial level over this. Most commercial heifers go to the stockyard, the feedlots, and get their heads chopped off and most of the few people who buy their replacements by the pound at the stockyard are saavy enough to be following the AM and NH thing. The management does not change any. Whether you have NO carrier cows or all the cows are carriers, you want to buy herd bulls that are either tested free of the two defects or are cleared by pedigree. As long as you keep the sires free, you will never see this defect, even if every cow you own is a carrier. I honestly am more worried about buying heifers from a trich or BVD II infected herd than I am about picking up the AM or NH gene in a commercial environment.
 

JHH

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Brandonm22":34qdsmju said:
I don't think it is that big a deal with the commercial heifers. If you have a preexisting generic herd of black commercial cows you likely already have SOME carrier cows so adding MORE carrier females isn't really going to change your situation much. I am not going to take the financial hit of depoping good cows at the commercial level over this. Most commercial heifers go to the stockyard, the feedlots, and get their heads chopped off and most of the few people who buy their replacements by the pound at the stockyard are saavy enough to be following the AM and NH thing. The management does not change any. Whether you have NO carrier cows or all the cows are carriers, you want to buy herd bulls that are either tested free of the two defects or are cleared by pedigree. As long as you keep the sires free, you will never see this defect, even if every cow you own is a carrier. I honestly am more worried about buying heifers from a trich or BVD II infected herd than I am about picking up the AM or NH gene in a commercial environment.


I was told the other day that all bulls in missouri that go through the sale barn to be sold as bulls have to have a trich test. Is it becoming that common?
 

dun

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JHH":14j9cy31 said:
I was told the other day that all bulls in missouri that go through the sale barn to be sold as bulls have to have a trich test. Is it becoming that common?
I think it applies to bulls over a certain age.
 

JMichal

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dun":2tu5ifm6 said:
JHH":2tu5ifm6 said:
I was told the other day that all bulls in missouri that go through the sale barn to be sold as bulls have to have a trich test. Is it becoming that common?
I think it applies to bulls over a certain age.
If the Bulls are being shipped out of state the Health papers must say Virgin Bull or if over 24 months Trich test neg. This is because most states now require this for Bulls coming into their State. We checked with TX, OK, AR, and KS. All require this as of the 1st of this year. So if you sell it at a sale barn, and it is going out of state, and you didn't have the Bull tested previous to the sale, he will need to be tested before being shipped.
 

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