Pretty ticked off

[WichitaLineMan]

>>and the reason the breed will stumble again.<<

Well if we stumble now we won't have very far to fall, I'm afraid!

 

[Herefords.US]

i don't embrace it because of how it is being used. I didn't have to shoot them in the head, but i culled just under 100 papered hereford cows because of the diluter gene even tho the influence i had was a non-carrier (looks like i should have split them off and bred them polled)...and by culled I don't mean kicked them into my fall herd or run them as commercial - they went to town. i also culled about 20 cows that went back to the mutant even though they tested free. for a period i made excuses for the cattle before we had a dna filter... but that is all it is an excuse and in my opinion ranchers get tired of having to have everything explained to them cause it just comes off as an excuse. the dilutor filter may have started out innocent but it became a tool in multiple ways for the AHA. now we (AHA) have an excuse to use the genetics and we don't have to worry about lawsuits in the meantime cause that deal saved the association's and some real big breeders butts.... what they don't realize is that a rancher doesn't forget and in my opinion doesn't give many second chances and the reason for animosity that was asked about on another thread, and the reason the breed will stumble again.

I admire your actions regarding those "Titan" cattle you had. I wish more folks had chosen that same path. But the IE deal is different than the diluter gene. It involves a single gene mutation - not the suspected infusion of another breed's blood into the Hereford genepool. There's quite a bit of difference!

There's some other points you make that I'd like to respond to, but we've kinda hi-jacked this thread and its original point where breeders were ACTUALLY testing their cattle and still selling them as breeding stock into the commercial sector after getting a positive result that they were carriers of genetic defects.

George

 

[Hereford76]

i don't embrace it because of how it is being used. I didn't have to shoot them in the head, but i culled just under 100 papered hereford cows because of the diluter gene even tho the influence i had was a non-carrier (looks like i should have split them off and bred them polled)...and by culled I don't mean kicked them into my fall herd or run them as commercial - they went to town. i also culled about 20 cows that went back to the mutant even though they tested free. for a period i made excuses for the cattle before we had a dna filter... but that is all it is an excuse and in my opinion ranchers get tired of having to have everything explained to them cause it just comes off as an excuse. the dilutor filter may have started out innocent but it became a tool in multiple ways for the AHA. now we (AHA) have an excuse to use the genetics and we don't have to worry about lawsuits in the meantime cause that deal saved the association's and some real big breeders butts.... what they don't realize is that a rancher doesn't forget and in my opinion doesn't give many second chances and the reason for animosity that was asked about on another thread, and the reason the breed will stumble again.

I admire your actions regarding those "Titan" cattle you had. I wish more folks had chosen that same path. But the IE deal is different than the diluter gene. It involves a single gene mutation - not the suspected infusion of another breed's blood into the Hereford genepool. There's quite a bit of difference!
George

sure its different - only its harder to sell to someone that took a different path in regards to a DEFECT by eliminating 60% of a 4 generation herd.... and its even harder to sell to a commercial cow/calf man if you catch my drift.

 

[alexfarms]

Got a bull sale catalog in the mail yesterday from an Angus breeder here in OK for their sale next month. We're not in need of a bull, but thumbed through it anyway. They're selling four bulls without papers as "commercial" Angus bulls that are all carriers of either AM or NH! IMO, that's just wrong.

I hope that doesn't surprise you. As a matter of fact, until these dna tests came around, the same people wouldn't even admit there were any genetic defects. Then when the news would break, they would say 'well they all carry it anyhow'. This garbage is done all the time. I got sick of it 20 years ago, that is one of the reasons I sought out linebred cattle, so that some genetic proving had been done on them. There is also no way dna tests have been identified for all of the genetic abnormalities that are out there. Lerching from one genetic defect to another and having to cull or outcross otherwise high quality cattle that have been found to probably carry defects is expensive and irresponsible.

 

[Beef Man]

hey fella's please help this old man out an d tell me what AM, NH, IMO,and HY stands for . Most certainly agree that nobody really wins when they sell a animal with aknown gentic defect. What goes around come's around !

 

[Brandonm22]

Quick legend (and I will probably mispell some of these) HY = hypotrichosis a recessive genetic defect in Polled Hereford cattle where homozygous calves are born hairless traces back to the very popular Nick The Butler bull FCS = Fawn Calf Syndrome a recessive genetic defect in Angus cattle. Homozygous calves are frail, undesirable, and unthrifty at birth. Other symptoms linger through life. TH = Tibial Hemimelia a recessive genetic defect in Shorthorn, Maine Anjou, and the club calves that leads to death amound homozygous calves IE Idiopathic Epilepsy a recessive genetic defect in Line One horned Hereford cattle tracing back to Cooper and Holden's in Montana. The homozygous calf falls down on the ground with the shakes having a fit that last from seconds to sometimes many minutes NH = Neuropathic Hydrocephalus a genetic recessive in Angus cattle resulting in a massively deformed skull and a dead calf at birth traces back to the very popular Precision bull. PHA Pulmonary Hypoplasia with Anasarca a genetic recessive originally in Maine Anjou cattle but now also found in Shorthorns and Club cattle resulting in a swelling of the fetus. Most homozygous calves are aborted. The rest die at birth sometimes killing the cow as the fluid filled corpse can be 150 lbs +++ AM arthrogryposis multiplex a genetic recessive in Angus cattle Ironically Precison was also a carrier for this defect that kills homozygous calves at birth.

There are currently about ten of these that we know about and are following

http://www.nalf.org/limousin_library/na ... 04_nl.html

 

[stockman12]

correction....IE traced back strictly to Holdens. The bull that dispersed it through many in the breed was HH Advance 9012Y.

But it's actual origin I believe was HH advance L932 ?

 

[Brandonm22]

You are correct. Here is the whole known list of IE carriers. 334 animals to date.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... B8CEF9F98C

 

[Herefords.US]

You are correct. Here is the whole known list of IE carriers. 334 animals to date.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... B8CEF9F98C

I guess that depends on what your definition of "known" is! That's the list of Herefords who have tested positive for IE and the results have been reported to the AHA. There were some tests that weren't reported on that list and animals where tests weren't performed, but the fact that they're an IE carrier is obvious because they are ancestors to tested and confirmed IE carriers and the only possible pedigree link back to the IE originator, HH Advance P242. His sire, HH Advance L932, tested negative for IE.

George

 

[Frankie]

I guess that depends on what your definition of "known" is! That's the list of Herefords who have tested positive for IE and the results have been reported to the AHA. There were some tests that weren't reported on that list and animals where tests weren't performed, but the fact that they're an IE carrier is obvious because they are ancestors to tested and confirmed IE carriers and the only possible pedigree link back to the IE originator, HH Advance P242. His sire, HH Advance L932, tested negative for IE.

George

Is there some sort of notation on the reg papers of cattle that haven't been tested?

 

[stockman12]

So 242 was the first where it emerged. I wasn't sure, thanks. But 242 does not have a notation on his papers. Why some breeders still would use a carrier is just stupid even though they can come up with some free offspring. The use of this does not allow the breed to move ahead and get this behind us.

The way I take it is if you have an animal tested independently then it is your choice to list it or not.

 

[Hereford76]

ie was a mutation and you can't put any wrong on who raised the bull. george is right that the defect is completely different from say the dilutor gene in regards to breeder integrity even tho the assoc and others will tell you there isn't. someone provided a list of carriers - thank you. you guys need to be careful - i don't think any of the talk lately has been harmful to the breed... its when you don't know for sure and you start naming names is when it does harm. this defect should be a breeze to eliminate and with more initial integrity it never would have got to where it is.

 

[Herefords.US]

I guess that depends on what your definition of "known" is! That's the list of Herefords who have tested positive for IE and the results have been reported to the AHA. There were some tests that weren't reported on that list and animals where tests weren't performed, but the fact that they're an IE carrier is obvious because they are ancestors to tested and confirmed IE carriers and the only possible pedigree link back to the IE originator, HH Advance P242. His sire, HH Advance L932, tested negative for IE.

George

Is there some sort of notation on the reg papers of cattle that haven't been tested?

The only notations on the registration papers (and online pedigrees) are for "officially" tested animals. IEC for animals that tested as carriers of IE and IEF for animals that tested as free from IE. If an animal doesn't trace back to HH Advance P242 in their pedigree(and their pedigree is correct), then there's really no reason to test them. Some breeders have, just to put their minds and the minds of their customers at ease.

The Line 1 breeders have been and are very much on top of this. As far as I know, there's not a one of them that hasn't tested their herd and know right where they stand. And most have completely eliminated the carriers from their own herd.

It's in the fringes where this problem continues. Breeders whose herds aren't straight Line 1, but have some cattle with Line 1 influence in their back ground. I see a few cattle in a number of sales where there is potential for an IE problem in some cattle selling but there's nothing in the catalog that states whether those animals have been tested. But I wasn't at the sale to see if there was an announcement made there. I have watched a few sales online where there wasn't any announcement made. That bothers me, as I'm sure it concerns the Line 1 breeders, because THEY have generally done everything they can to get a firm handle on the IE problem.

George

 

[stockman12]

That is right about blaming a person for a mutation. This could happen to any breeder. The way we respond to this is where some blame can come in. I do believe Holden solved the problem on his end and ended the mutation at his place.

Breeders who are unscruptulous of all breeds and all problems need to be shyed away from. Whether they knowingly dispense mutations or unpure genetics they are wrong and hopefully it will catch up with them

 

[Herefords.US]

That is right about blaming a person for a mutation. This could happen to any breeder. The way we respond to this is where some blame can come in. I do believe Holden solved the problem on his end and ended the mutation at his place.

Breeders who are unscruptulous of all breeds and all problems need to be shyed away from. Whether they knowingly dispense mutations or unpure genetics they are wrong and hopefully it will catch up with them

Unfortunately, I believe there are still some breeders out there that have problem cattle and aren't aware that they are potential carriers. And they perpetuate the problem through ignorance.

George

 

[Cormac]

"And they perpetuate the problem through ignorance." In Frankie's catalog case though, I suspect greed. Why would anyone knowingly expose themselves, or their operation, to such negative scrutiny?
I think a little negative press /buzz (or a lot) will take the "ease" of selling carriers (commercial sales - LOL ).
What date is the sale? (PC) Or...Whose sale is it? (not PC)

 

[Herefords.US]

"And they perpetuate the problem through ignorance." In Frankie's catalog case though, I suspect greed. Why would anyone knowingly expose themselves, or their operation, to such negative scrutiny?
I think a little negative press /buzz (or a lot) will take the "ease" of selling carriers (commercial sales - LOL ).
What date is the sale? (PC) Or...Whose sale is it? (not PC)

Knowingly selling carriers seems to be bad practice.

Now, I'm off to watch some Black Herefords sell on dvauction. Funny that my concern in buying one would be what genetic problem could be lurking in the Black Angus part of their pedigree and my ignorance of the potential carriers in that small part of their genetic makeup.

And it's kinda hard to criticize the ones that have Prime Time in their pedigree when they're black! :lol2: :lol2:

George

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Maybe that's what I should do with mine that have Prime Time breeding. Breed them "up" (that's and oxymoron) to Black Herefords!

 

[Herefords.US]

Maybe that's what I should do with mine that have Prime Time breeding. Breed them "up" (that's and oxymoron) to Black Herefords!

Based on what I've seen in a lot of the Black Herefords, I think you'd definitely be improving the Black Hereford breed if you used a Black Hereford bull on them, WL!

George

 

[jcarkie]

if a commercial breeder buys one of the bulls and breeds cross bred cows. will the defect be propagated since you putting it in a totaly non related group, like the angus defect that came through 1608 family as long as you dont inbreed or linebreed then would it matter? i am a commercial breeder and i do look through a lot of sale catalogs and research alot of breeds but some breeders just buy private and wouldn't know. or say papers don't matter i just want calves for a cheap price. then we will be like the old days when dwarfism was seen very commonly commercial & registered. i had a friend that told me of some deformed calves(fawn calf) born in his commercial herd red angus bull on char x cows. brushed it off as one of those things but i told him that there are genetic defects out there in every breed.