Polled Hereford Cattle Plan

[Brandonm2]

I am not to big of a Legend fan either. I have only seen one daughter that has done well and has that frame I am looking for. She sold in the 2004 Boyd Beef Cattle sale to Dunrovin Farm. Her name is BOYD Karen 3007. Take care. :cboy:

Hill, most of us are just in the cow business. We make our money by increasing our live weaned calf percentage and increasing our weaning wts, while decreasing our costs of production per cow and maybe selling a few bulls too people who don't like to spend ANY money on ANYTHING. YOU are in the donor cow business. To get in the black, you need to produce something FLASHY that somebody will pay you half the cost of a new pickup truck for. I will openly confess, that I do not know how to convince somebody that an embryo is worth $500, that a 205 day old heifer that wouldn't bring $685 in any stock yard in the world is worth $4000 or that half interest in a 3 year old white face cow is worth $25,000. I will yield to your superior 'expertise' in this area.

 

[Brandonm2]

It is not always the weight...it is the shape of the calf.

Your right there too Cert; if a bull has a real big UGLY pallethead and big coarse shoulders on a heavy boned frame he is liable to be a trainwreck as a heifer bull. I just don't know how to turn that common sense knowledge into an EPD! Some things people just got to find out the hard way I guess.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

The reason I said I wouldn't use him on heifers is because he started out around a 0BW. He has kept getting a little bigger with time, so I would hold off until he evens out someplace. I do however agree that we are breeding to much for small birth weight, and should look to keep the birthweights in the 3's. And possibly start pelvic measuring everything along with the rea's and IMF. THen score that out as well. I hear the angus are having the same small pelvic problem. My grandfather told me that he loves having 60lb calves from his cows, now he is starting to sell heifers with small pelvic cavities that are having calving difficulties. They just look for a lower weight bull, instead of going to the root of the problem. I guess the question is, how to fix the problem

 

[KNERSIE]

To come back to the BW and pelvic area point.

I agree that if we continually select for lower and lower birth weight bulls the pelvic area of the female offspring will suffer. That, I guess, is why Dun said that if you SELECT PROPERLY you should be OK.

Now if you use curvebending bulls your birthweights should stay under control and the curvebending quality should ensure that most of the heifers's pelvic area should also be big enough.

I think if you select for a single trait, such as BW, you are looking for trouble in the long run...but that is the case with most all single trait selections. That is why moderate cattle will always be of you more satisfactory producers.

Remember that maximum(or for that matter minimum) is not neccesarily optimum.

 

[3MR]

I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding.

We WISH it was that simple. Time after time breeders cross a high birth wt sire with a low birth wt cow and then sell a lot of semen because the breed association simply averages the two parents and puts a very very low accuracy EPD on that show winning yearling calf. Probably 85% of the time that birth wt EPD goes up when his calves come in. I remember when MSU Optimum Z03 was being touted as the low birth wt Mohican Tradition. It didn't work out that way....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=53515D. I think Victor Boomer was supposed to solve that birth wt problem with the Keynote/Boomer cattle. Good bull but I wouldn't let him near a heifer. The statisticians will tell us that a young bull's EPDs are as likely to improve as they are too get worse and they are probably right; but it is that fast growing, growthy, thick calf that gets pulled out of the herd to be the next great thing NOT his less growthy flushmates and MOST of the time high growth comes with the high price of a high birth weight.

Listen to the above!

Pay attention to the EPD's; but as I'm sure you realize, your averages are based on assumptions and will change. Dont mortgage the ranch based on them.

Did you learn first hand?

Nope, from study and observation, I would rather learn from other peoples mistakes than my own. 8)

But then it really doesnt matter if you are observing your own cows or someone elses though does it.

PS: Are you saying I was wrong and you dont realize your average is based on an assumption? Im not sure I understand your reply. If it was meant to be facatious because I in some way offended you, I apologize.

I shall leave you to your thread, good luck in your new enterprise.

 

[dun]

To come back to the BW and pelvic area point.

I agree that if we continually select for lower and lower birth weight bulls the pelvic area of the female offspring will suffer. That, I guess, is why Dun said that if you SELECT PROPERLY you should be OK.

Now if you use curvebending bulls your birthweights should stay under control and the curvebending quality should ensure that most of the heifers's pelvic area should also be big enough.

I think if you select for a single trait, such as BW, you are looking for trouble in the long run...but that is the case with most all single trait selections. That is why moderate cattle will always be of you more satisfactory producers.

Remember that maximum(or for that matter minimum) is not neccesarily optimum.

What I meant was, not all low BW bulls sire small pelvic area cows, just as not all large BW or even mature weight bulls sire large pelvic area cows.
Curve benders will get you in trouble eventually if you retain daughters because you'll end up with too large of cows. Since the only large number of multibreed data available are EPDs, look at bulls with high accuracy and you will find that some of those curve bender, even with avg BW, will have poor maternal calving ease. Some ofthose very low BW bulls will have very high maternal calving ease.
I guess about all we agree on is that single trait selection will burn you end the end.
We challenge the heifers and cows fot that matter to raise a big calf not have a big calf. We've selected bulls for years with avg or below BW, after that the work begins in finding bulls that meet that criteria that also have the other traits that we're looking for.

dun

 

[Brandonm2]

To come back to the BW and pelvic area point.

I agree that if we continually select for lower and lower birth weight bulls the pelvic area of the female offspring will suffer. That, I guess, is why Dun said that if you SELECT PROPERLY you should be OK.

Now if you use curvebending bulls your birthweights should stay under control and the curvebending quality should ensure that most of the heifers's pelvic area should also be big enough.

I think if you select for a single trait, such as BW, you are looking for trouble in the long run...but that is the case with most all single trait selections. That is why moderate cattle will always be of you more satisfactory producers.

Remember that maximum(or for that matter minimum) is not neccesarily optimum.

IF pelvic area is a concern in your herd (and this is probably a good idea for everybody) measure it. http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publica ... A-3010.pdf
Use bulls and heifers that you know are adequate in pelvic area. I am also not advocating using the same bulls on the cow herd that you use on heifers. The goal of the first calving is a live calf and a unstressed heifer that will breed back. After that first mating, I would place a lot less emphasis on birth weight, unless your trying to producee the next birth weight trait leader, of course. Any decent COW in her 3rd parity and up ought to be more than ok with any Hereford bull up to +5 and most can handle even Charolais and Brahmans.

 

[HerefordSire]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

The 3008s are not ET permitted, yet. They have not been flushed yet. SHF Red Oak M326 R96 -- I likes....for future linebreeding but not for now...I passed him up this go around. I plan on using Stockmaster, Online, CS Boomer, Bogart, Boomer, Governor, Embracer, H Embracer, Nation Wide, etc..

Well, I wouldn't think about using Bogart, he doesn't have enough top to him. 8006, well, you can't get semen on him anymore. Nation wide, well, I haven't seen a calf yet out of him that weighed under 100lbs. I even thought about using Nationwide, but birthweights are to large. Take care and the best of luck. :cboy:

Bogart pairs very nicely with my donors, at least on paper. Maybe your remark about him is why the semen is only $50 per shot for a CS Boomer son. If I could just grab one of Bogart's powerful genes and leverage it, he will be worth using. I just bought 8006 semen and it is in my tank. I think Nation Wide can give me a calf under 100 and hopefully under 90. Do you know of any examples that have tried this pairing yet?

Remitall has had some big BW on Nationwide calves. That may have a lot to due with being bred Remitall. Still, Keynote weighed 100lbs. at birth. I wouldn't use Bogart, unless you have a really big topped cow your using him on. He was awesom to look at when a yearling, but I don't know what happened when he got to be 24 months old. Went down hill I guess. Anyway, still would use Bogart. Take care. :cboy:

Bogart....maybe the environment or an event instead of the genes? When you write 24 months old, are you referring to a photo? If so, which photo?

I saw Bogart at 24 months old at North American Breeders being collected. I thought that they had Bogart or Bogarts name plate outside his stall mixed up with another bulls. But it was Bogart, and I saw no top in this bull what so ever. I wouldn't use him. :cboy:

I you telling me the photos don't match reality? In other words, after you viewed Bogart, did you then view a relatively recent photo to verify the resemblence?

 

[HerefordSire]

I don't understand the desire to produce cattle that will be trait leaders in EVERY trait. EPDs are supposed to allow you to custom fit the bull you need for your herd. If I am multiplying females for a southern or western grass environment I want a moderate framed bull with not more than a +15 milk EPD and I would be SCARED of a bull who was a growth trait leader because that COULD give me excessive mature cow weights. IF I am looking for a Herf bull to put on black cows to produce market steers, I want the framiest bull with growth trait leader numbers. IF I am going to sell those calves on the rail on a quality grade grid I also want the bull to be the IMF trait leader. IF I am going to sell those calves on a yield grade grid I want the Fat and REA trait leader. If I am looking for a bull too breed to heifers I want the Birth wt and calving ease leader and beyond that I would prefer him NOT to be a growth trait leader; because I would rather those heifers not get sucked down by 750 lb calves their first time out. If I have a bunch of big fat cows that don't milk enough then obviously I need to go and use a bull with MILK growth trait leader numbers. I think Angus has had some EPD chaser train wrecks which is why they have added 'Mature Cow Height', 'Mature Cow Weight', Yearling Height, and '$EN' to their EPD lineup. It looks to me like Hereford needs to do the same.

Allow me to give a real life example of what I am thinking, at least as close as I can get at this stage. First of all, please view this cow:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E71A181911

Then, if you don't mind, I would like for you to check my logic. This step is important to me so you are aware of what I am working with.

 

[HerefordSire]

I don't understand the desire to produce cattle that will be trait leaders in EVERY trait. EPDs are supposed to allow you to custom fit the bull you need for your herd. If I am multiplying females for a southern or western grass environment I want a moderate framed bull with not more than a +15 milk EPD and I would be SCARED of a bull who was a growth trait leader because that COULD give me excessive mature cow weights. IF I am looking for a Herf bull to put on black cows to produce market steers, I want the framiest bull with growth trait leader numbers. IF I am going to sell those calves on the rail on a quality grade grid I also want the bull to be the IMF trait leader. IF I am going to sell those calves on a yield grade grid I want the Fat and REA trait leader. If I am looking for a bull too breed to heifers I want the Birth wt and calving ease leader and beyond that I would prefer him NOT to be a growth trait leader; because I would rather those heifers not get sucked down by 750 lb calves their first time out. If I have a bunch of big fat cows that don't milk enough then obviously I need to go and use a bull with MILK growth trait leader numbers. I think Angus has had some EPD chaser train wrecks which is why they have added 'Mature Cow Height', 'Mature Cow Weight', Yearling Height, and '$EN' to their EPD lineup. It looks to me like Hereford needs to do the same.

Allow me to give a real life example of what I am thinking, at least as close as I can get at this stage. First of all, please view this cow:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E71A181911

Then, if you don't mind, I would like for you to check my logic. This step is important to me so you are aware of what I am working with.

If that was a bad link, punch this in: 42387342

 

[dun]

I don't understand the desire to produce cattle that will be trait leaders in EVERY trait. EPDs are supposed to allow you to custom fit the bull you need for your herd. If I am multiplying females for a southern or western grass environment I want a moderate framed bull with not more than a +15 milk EPD and I would be SCARED of a bull who was a growth trait leader because that COULD give me excessive mature cow weights. IF I am looking for a Herf bull to put on black cows to produce market steers, I want the framiest bull with growth trait leader numbers. IF I am going to sell those calves on the rail on a quality grade grid I also want the bull to be the IMF trait leader. IF I am going to sell those calves on a yield grade grid I want the Fat and REA trait leader. If I am looking for a bull too breed to heifers I want the Birth wt and calving ease leader and beyond that I would prefer him NOT to be a growth trait leader; because I would rather those heifers not get sucked down by 750 lb calves their first time out. If I have a bunch of big fat cows that don't milk enough then obviously I need to go and use a bull with MILK growth trait leader numbers. I think Angus has had some EPD chaser train wrecks which is why they have added 'Mature Cow Height', 'Mature Cow Weight', Yearling Height, and '$EN' to their EPD lineup. It looks to me like Hereford needs to do the same.

Allow me to give a real life example of what I am thinking, at least as close as I can get at this stage. First of all, please view this cow:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E71A181911

Then, if you don't mind, I would like for you to check my logic. This step is important to me so you are aware of what I am working with.

If that was a bad link, punch this in: 42387342

It didn;t work the first time but hitting refresh brought it up fine

dun

 

[redfornow]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

The 3008s are not ET permitted, yet. They have not been flushed yet. SHF Red Oak M326 R96 -- I likes....for future linebreeding but not for now...I passed him up this go around. I plan on using Stockmaster, Online, CS Boomer, Bogart, Boomer, Governor, Embracer, H Embracer, Nation Wide, etc..

Well, I wouldn't think about using Bogart, he doesn't have enough top to him. 8006, well, you can't get semen on him anymore. Nation wide, well, I haven't seen a calf yet out of him that weighed under 100lbs. I even thought about using Nationwide, but birthweights are to large. Take care and the best of luck. :cboy:

Bogart pairs very nicely with my donors, at least on paper. Maybe your remark about him is why the semen is only $50 per shot for a CS Boomer son. If I could just grab one of Bogart's powerful genes and leverage it, he will be worth using. I just bought 8006 semen and it is in my tank. I think Nation Wide can give me a calf under 100 and hopefully under 90. Do you know of any examples that have tried this pairing yet?

Remitall has had some big BW on Nationwide calves. That may have a lot to due with being bred Remitall. Still, Keynote weighed 100lbs. at birth. I wouldn't use Bogart, unless you have a really big topped cow your using him on. He was awesom to look at when a yearling, but I don't know what happened when he got to be 24 months old. Went down hill I guess. Anyway, still would use Bogart. Take care. :cboy:

Bogart....maybe the environment or an event instead of the genes? When you write 24 months old, are you referring to a photo? If so, which photo?

I saw Bogart at 24 months old at North American Breeders being collected. I thought that they had Bogart or Bogarts name plate outside his stall mixed up with another bulls. But it was Bogart, and I saw no top in this bull what so ever. I wouldn't use him. :cboy:

I you telling me the photos don't match reality? In other words, after you viewed Bogart, did you then view a relatively recent photo to verify the resemblence?

Just so you can know. The Pictures are never reality. They are that bulls best look after full feed, hair done and then touched up by a computer guy.
Go take a look at the real animals while they are being collected or are out working in the field. Most are just BULLS.
Just like most pinups are just GIRLS.
Makeup hair and lighting make a big difference.

Remeber the old saying "believe nor of what you hear and only half of what you see"

MD

 

[redfornow]

Anyone can stack numbers. Heck if you stack enough numbers the right way you will win the loto and not need cattle.

Epds are paper just a tool but a tool to be tested.


MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

I would like feedback so I can determine if I am in the ballpark of being sane.

I bought 300 acres of farm land in 2004. I saved the down stroke by doing without for several years. This year I bought five registered 3008 daughters with calves by their side to use as donors for the sixty black Angus cross recipients I bought at the same time. The blacks are very large, but not as large as the 3008s.

I am in the process of doing semen business with Mr. Reed. So far, I have a list of about 20 bulls, of which, half of the straws I have already paid for. I am the studious type, so I have studied many sources of literature available on the web. So far, one my weaknesses are to try to produce a bull that is a number one trait leader similar to 3008.

Any advice is welcome.

The best buy and bull IMO that Reed has is Vindicator, the bull actually has proven results.

 

[Chris H]

I would like feedback so I can determine if I am in the ballpark of being sane.

I bought 300 acres of farm land in 2004. I saved the down stroke by doing without for several years. This year I bought five registered 3008 daughters with calves by their side to use as donors for the sixty black Angus cross recipients I bought at the same time. The blacks are very large, but not as large as the 3008s.

I am in the process of doing semen business with Mr. Reed. So far, I have a list of about 20 bulls, of which, half of the straws I have already paid for. I am the studious type, so I have studied many sources of literature available on the web. So far, one my weaknesses are to try to produce a bull that is a number one trait leader similar to 3008.

Any advice is welcome.

How much studying and work have you done on how to manage donors and recips? I assume the recips have calves on them now, are they currently bred? Are your donors currently bred? Have you chosen who will do your flush work? Who will do your implanting? Who will manage your recips? Managing your recips is probably more important for successful ET work than managing your donors.

 

[HerefordSire]

I don't understand the desire to produce cattle that will be trait leaders in EVERY trait. EPDs are supposed to allow you to custom fit the bull you need for your herd. If I am multiplying females for a southern or western grass environment I want a moderate framed bull with not more than a +15 milk EPD and I would be SCARED of a bull who was a growth trait leader because that COULD give me excessive mature cow weights. IF I am looking for a Herf bull to put on black cows to produce market steers, I want the framiest bull with growth trait leader numbers. IF I am going to sell those calves on the rail on a quality grade grid I also want the bull to be the IMF trait leader. IF I am going to sell those calves on a yield grade grid I want the Fat and REA trait leader. If I am looking for a bull too breed to heifers I want the Birth wt and calving ease leader and beyond that I would prefer him NOT to be a growth trait leader; because I would rather those heifers not get sucked down by 750 lb calves their first time out. If I have a bunch of big fat cows that don't milk enough then obviously I need to go and use a bull with MILK growth trait leader numbers. I think Angus has had some EPD chaser train wrecks which is why they have added 'Mature Cow Height', 'Mature Cow Weight', Yearling Height, and '$EN' to their EPD lineup. It looks to me like Hereford needs to do the same.

Allow me to give a real life example of what I am thinking, at least as close as I can get at this stage. First of all, please view this cow:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E71A181911

Then, if you don't mind, I would like for you to check my logic. This step is important to me so you are aware of what I am working with.

If that was a bad link, punch this in: 42387342

Hopefully by now, you have had a chance to view one donor I have. Please do not take any of this the wrong way as I appreciate everyone's participation at the risk of losing privacy.

I hear where you (and others) are coming from and I can sense you (and others) have wisdom. I do not expect to target all sub-markets within the polled Hereford industry. I understand there is a specific type of bull needed for different scenarios in order to maximize rancher income and cash flow.

So what can I gain by producing a bull that is a leader in more traits than any other bull as classified by the AHA? Good question and I am glad you inquired.

I believe Mr. Felt 3008 is (was) worth several million dollars because he is able to cross over to more specific sub-markets than a bull that is not a multiple trait leader. In other words, a southeastern market and a near opposite market, may be interested in the same animal. You don't say so! If I were fortunate with the wind blowing at my back walking downhill, I might could buy his semen for $1K, or more, a whack. Why is this? Why is Keynote selling for $2K a whack? Why did a Remitall bull recently sell for close to $200K for 1/2 interest? I may be wrong here, but I believe it is all about supply and demand. I can't see the demand. I can't really understand the supply.

I am not interested in doing paperwork a whole bunch of times for a thousand profit here and there. Why use time on a whole bunch of little deals when there is a reasonable chance I could do a big deal(s) and make the same amount of profit and cash flow? In other words, why would I buy 50 shares of IBM's stock instead of 10,000 shares? So for each point she moves upward, I make $50?

Now for the next step. I am unable to travel all over the country to view potential merchandise (bulls). I would rather take an educated guess by studying all the information available on the net so I hopefully select the correct bull semen for what I am trying to accomplish. What is the best tool for this? EPD? I think so. So I am wrong here and there with a selection and I learn. That is life.

Allow me to take Bogart as an example, since he was previously discussed in a negative light on this board. Please do a quick mental comination of the two EPDs and divide by two then compare to the trait leading standard deviations. I am coming up with a new multiple trait leader, at least on paper. So you may say, it is just a tool. Do you have a better one I can use?

Are you with me so far?

 

[mtnman]

You have no reputation.

What someone else can sell for 200,000, you can only sell for 20,000, if you are lucky.

By the time these folks "hit the big time", they didn't really need too.

You are talking like the bull will let you "hit the big time", but that is the opposite of how it happens.

QAS Traveler, only made his breeder about $20,000, or whatever he sold for. The first time EXT sold, he only brought commercial prices. He only made them millions after being re-discovered by good record keeping the the herd he went in to. But, the breeder was already establishee by nature of his father's work before him.

mtnman

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

All I can say is, go to Texas, down in DeSoto, Texas and look for Bogart. He is on the Larson's Polled Hereford Ranch. Take care. They are breeding heifers to him. :cboy:

 

[HerefordSire]

I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding.

We WISH it was that simple. Time after time breeders cross a high birth wt sire with a low birth wt cow and then sell a lot of semen because the breed association simply averages the two parents and puts a very very low accuracy EPD on that show winning yearling calf. Probably 85% of the time that birth wt EPD goes up when his calves come in. I remember when MSU Optimum Z03 was being touted as the low birth wt Mohican Tradition. It didn't work out that way....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=53515D. I think Victor Boomer was supposed to solve that birth wt problem with the Keynote/Boomer cattle. Good bull but I wouldn't let him near a heifer. The statisticians will tell us that a young bull's EPDs are as likely to improve as they are too get worse and they are probably right; but it is that fast growing, growthy, thick calf that gets pulled out of the herd to be the next great thing NOT his less growthy flushmates and MOST of the time high growth comes with the high price of a high birth weight.

Listen to the above!

Pay attention to the EPD's; but as I'm sure you realize, your averages are based on assumptions and will change. Dont mortgage the ranch based on them.

Did you learn first hand?

Nope, from study and observation, I would rather learn from other peoples mistakes than my own. 8)

But then it really doesnt matter if you are observing your own cows or someone elses though does it.

PS: Are you saying I was wrong and you dont realize your average is based on an assumption? Im not sure I understand your reply. If it was meant to be facatious because I in some way offended you, I apologize.

I shall leave you to your thread, good luck in your new enterprise.

No, I was not saying you were wrong or about the EPD realization assumptions, I was just attempting to find out if you found out the hard way and lost money. I hope to hear from you again.

 

[HerefordSire]

I would like feedback so I can determine if I am in the ballpark of being sane.

I bought 300 acres of farm land in 2004. I saved the down stroke by doing without for several years. This year I bought five registered 3008 daughters with calves by their side to use as donors for the sixty black Angus cross recipients I bought at the same time. The blacks are very large, but not as large as the 3008s.

I am in the process of doing semen business with Mr. Reed. So far, I have a list of about 20 bulls, of which, half of the straws I have already paid for. I am the studious type, so I have studied many sources of literature available on the web. So far, one my weaknesses are to try to produce a bull that is a number one trait leader similar to 3008.

Any advice is welcome.

The best buy and bull IMO that Reed has is Vindicator, the bull actually has proven results.

Would you mind proving artillery why you are bullish on Vindicator?