Polled Hereford Cattle Plan

[HerefordSire]

I would like feedback so I can determine if I am in the ballpark of being sane.

I bought 300 acres of farm land in 2004. I saved the down stroke by doing without for several years. This year I bought five registered 3008 daughters with calves by their side to use as donors for the sixty black Angus cross recipients I bought at the same time. The blacks are very large, but not as large as the 3008s.

I am in the process of doing semen business with Mr. Reed. So far, I have a list of about 20 bulls, of which, half of the straws I have already paid for. I am the studious type, so I have studied many sources of literature available on the web. So far, one my weaknesses are to try to produce a bull that is a number one trait leader similar to 3008.

Any advice is welcome.

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

 

[El_Putzo]

Breed for quality, functional cattle, not for numbers. There are thousands of cattle out there that have less than average EPD's but are very high quality cattle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to disregard EPD's completely, I'm just saying don't make it your sole purpose to breed the next trait leader in every category. I think you'll find that most customers, with the exception of other Hereford breeders, aren't going to pay as much attention to those numbers as you are. Joe Farmer wants a bull or heifers that have decent birthweights and weaning weights and cattle that look good to them.

Of course these are only my perceptions, so take them for what it's worth.

P.S. I don't own nor have I seen very many Mr Felt Progeny, but I do like his papa, 517 and his progeny.

 

[HerefordSire]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

The 3008s are not ET permitted, yet. They have not been flushed yet. SHF Red Oak M326 R96 -- I likes....for future linebreeding but not for now...I passed him up this go around. I plan on using Stockmaster, Online, CS Boomer, Bogart, Boomer, Governor, Embracer, H Embracer, Nation Wide, etc..

 

[El_Putzo]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

The 3008s are not ET permitted, yet. They have not been flushed yet. SHF Red Oak M326 R96 -- I likes....for future linebreeding but not for now...I passed him up this go around. I plan on using Stockmaster, Online, CS Boomer, Bogart, Boomer, Governor, Embracer, H Embracer, Nation Wide, etc..

Jumping in head first I see. You and HCF should become fast friends. ;-)

Nice lineup of bulls, some I wouldn't use, but a pretty good lineup nonetheless.

 

[HerefordSire]

Breed for quality, functional cattle, not for numbers. There are thousands of cattle out there that have less than average EPD's but are very high quality cattle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to disregard EPD's completely, I'm just saying don't make it your sole purpose to breed the next trait leader in every category. I think you'll find that most customers, with the exception of other Hereford breeders, aren't going to pay as much attention to those numbers as you are. Joe Farmer wants a bull or heifers that have decent birthweights and weaning weights and cattle that look good to them.

Of course these are only my perceptions, so take them for what it's worth.

P.S. I don't own nor have I seen very many Mr Felt Progeny, but I do like his papa, 517 and his progeny.

I am with you. Good point about Joe Farmer. It is difficult to judge a target market without being there in the situation. I would hate for Joe to leave without buying my product. Good thing the 3008s are strong in this area (BW & WW). The looks.... I am working on feather necks, teets, etc....Another of my weaknesses is REA which fit good with weak REA 3008s.

 

[HerefordSire]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

The 3008s are not ET permitted, yet. They have not been flushed yet. SHF Red Oak M326 R96 -- I likes....for future linebreeding but not for now...I passed him up this go around. I plan on using Stockmaster, Online, CS Boomer, Bogart, Boomer, Governor, Embracer, H Embracer, Nation Wide, etc..

Jumping in head first I see. You and HCF should become fast friends. ;-)

Nice lineup of bulls, some I wouldn't use, but a pretty good lineup nonetheless.

HCF seems like a friendly person. Which bulls above would you not use and why?

 

[El_Putzo]

MM RSM Stockmaster 512 - Negative CE and too high BW.
Remitall Online 122L - Considered using him, but can't get past the $100 (or maybe $200) per straw price tag. Plus, he's lacking in CE.
CS Boomer 29F - I have a daughter and like her very much, but again, the price tag is a little too high.
Star OBF Bogart 5L - I like him alot and will be sampling him in the near future.
Remitall Boomer 46B - High pricetag, and bad CE, but I am still highly considering due to how proven he and his daughters are.
Remitall Governor 236G - Can't put my finger on it, but I just don't really care for him phenotypically, plus he is marginal in BW and CE.
Remitall Embracer 8E - Again too rich for my blood.
H 8E Embracer 8006 - Lacking in IMF and too high priced.
Remitall Nation Wide - Unproven, terrible BW and CE.


I guess what it boils down to is that I'm a cheap a$$, and I don't think I could sell high BW low CE bulls in my area. You see, I live in an area where most cattle owners also have a full time job. They have been spoiled by low BW Angus bulls and most only check their cows once a day or maybe every other day, even during calving season. These are just my observations and are probably somewhat unique to my area, but that's who I have to cater to. I can't be trying to raise show cattle for a bunch of big wigs halfway across the country who will probably never even hear of my tiny little operation.

Of course, I am not flushing like you are, I only AI. If I were to ever do a flush, I would be more inclined to try one of the higher priced bulls.

 

[redfornow]

MM RSM Stockmaster 512 - Negative CE and too high BW.
Remitall Online 122L - Considered using him, but can't get past the $100 per straw price tag. Plus, he's lacking in CE.
CS Boomer 29F - I have a daughter and like her very much, but again, the price tag is a little too high.
Star OBF Bogart 5L - I like him alot and will be sampling him in the near future.
Remitall Boomer 46B - High pricetag, and bad CE, but I am still highly considering due to how proven he and his daughters are.
Remitall Governor 236G - Can't put my finger on it, but I just don't really care for him phenotypically, plus he is marginal in BW and CE.
Remitall Embracer 8E - Again too rich for my blood.
H 8E Embracer 8006 - Lacking in IMF and too high priced.
Remitall Nation Wide - Unproven, terrible BW and CE.


I guess what it boils down to is that I'm a cheap a$$, and I don't think I could sell high BW low CE bulls in my area. You see, I live in an area where most cattle owners also have a full time job. They have been spoiled by low BW Angus bulls and most only check their cows once a day or maybe every other day, even during calving season. These are just my observations and are probably somewhat unique to my area, but that's who I have to cater to. I can't be trying to raise show cattle for a bunch of big wigs halfway across the country who will probably never even hear of my tiny little operation.

Of course, I am not flushing like you are, I only AI. If I were to ever do a flush, I would be more inclined to try one of the higher priced bulls.

Well said, I dont know a person full or part time that wants to spend their day with delivering cows, now heifers thats a different story. But a poor CE and a poor BW well its the kiss of death. Most herds are what? 25 to 40 now. Far to small to support a person, so most if not all are looking for bulls that will put a live calf on the ground. Thats my main problem with the whole Remitall line, most of their bulls CE and BW numbers ALWAYS go up, you can hide it for awhile but they go up.
They are big showy animals, thats not to say they dont work at times. But your average guy doesnt want a train wreck.
The word is moderation.
always works
MD

 

[HerefordSire]

MM RSM Stockmaster 512 - Negative CE and too high BW.
Remitall Online 122L - Considered using him, but can't get past the $100 (or maybe $200) per straw price tag. Plus, he's lacking in CE.
CS Boomer 29F - I have a daughter and like her very much, but again, the price tag is a little too high.
Star OBF Bogart 5L - I like him alot and will be sampling him in the near future.
Remitall Boomer 46B - High pricetag, and bad CE, but I am still highly considering due to how proven he and his daughters are.
Remitall Governor 236G - Can't put my finger on it, but I just don't really care for him phenotypically, plus he is marginal in BW and CE.
Remitall Embracer 8E - Again too rich for my blood.
H 8E Embracer 8006 - Lacking in IMF and too high priced.
Remitall Nation Wide - Unproven, terrible BW and CE.


I guess what it boils down to is that I'm a cheap a$$, and I don't think I could sell high BW low CE bulls in my area. You see, I live in an area where most cattle owners also have a full time job. They have been spoiled by low BW Angus bulls and most only check their cows once a day or maybe every other day, even during calving season. These are just my observations and are probably somewhat unique to my area, but that's who I have to cater to. I can't be trying to raise show cattle for a bunch of big wigs halfway across the country who will probably never even hear of my tiny little operation.

Of course, I am not flushing like you are, I only AI. If I were to ever do a flush, I would be more inclined to try one of the higher priced bulls.

Your point of view is very interesting. I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding. At least I will be in firing range. Price -- yea, in order to breed a #1 trait leader similar to 3008 maybe I have to prime the pump and hope I hear puttering. High risk and high reward. I wish it were low risk and high reward. Maybe I can do both with one as a hedge, like linebreed one donor with DR World class, or another light birthing bull, for the breeders that don't want to invest for a non-terminal play, and other reasons, etc.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

We have a small herd, had one cow that we did get bred to Governor. The calf came easily at a weight of 74lbs. This was from a 1250lb 2nd calf cow. He is growing nicely and probably weighs in the ballpark of 450-500 no creep at 5months of age. I'll pull a HCF and tell you he is OCF Senator 236g s17, check him out in the coming years, he'll be for sale next spring.

I really like some of the 3008, of course my favorite and starting to be most proven sons is M326. It would be a close linebreeding, but I would use him in a couple of years when your cow's calves turn to cows. He might be a little harder on the heifers though he has a 1.7CE and I believe a 3.3BW

 

[Brandonm2]

I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding.

We WISH it was that simple. Time after time breeders cross a high birth wt sire with a low birth wt cow and then sell a lot of semen because the breed association simply averages the two parents and puts a very very low accuracy EPD on that show winning yearling calf. Probably 85% of the time that birth wt EPD goes up when his calves come in. I remember when MSU Optimum Z03 was being touted as the low birth wt Mohican Tradition. It didn't work out that way....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=53515D. I think Victor Boomer was supposed to solve that birth wt problem with the Keynote/Boomer cattle. Good bull but I wouldn't let him near a heifer. The statisticians will tell us that a young bull's EPDs are as likely to improve as they are too get worse and they are probably right; but it is that fast growing, growthy, thick calf that gets pulled out of the herd to be the next great thing NOT his less growthy flushmates and MOST of the time high growth comes with the high price of a high birth weight.

 

[LFF]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

Your SHF Red Oak bull is a grandson of 3008.

 

[LFF]

Look up LFF SCHURABLE 42688529 , he is out of a line of cattle similar to what you are looking at. Check his pedgree on his dam's side for Governer and his sire for 3008 influence. He's just a calf but you can get a idea for the epd possibilities in future breedings.

 

[George]

I would like feedback so I can determine if I am in the ballpark of being sane.

I bought 300 acres of farm land in 2004. I saved the down stroke by doing without for several years. This year I bought five registered 3008 daughters with calves by their side to use as donors for the sixty black Angus cross recipients I bought at the same time. The blacks are very large, but not as large as the 3008s.

I am in the process of doing semen business with Mr. Reed. So far, I have a list of about 20 bulls, of which, half of the straws I have already paid for. I am the studious type, so I have studied many sources of literature available on the web. So far, one my weaknesses are to try to produce a bull that is a number one trait leader similar to 3008.

Any advice is welcome.

How many years have you been in the cattle business?

 

[3MR]

I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding.

We WISH it was that simple. Time after time breeders cross a high birth wt sire with a low birth wt cow and then sell a lot of semen because the breed association simply averages the two parents and puts a very very low accuracy EPD on that show winning yearling calf. Probably 85% of the time that birth wt EPD goes up when his calves come in. I remember when MSU Optimum Z03 was being touted as the low birth wt Mohican Tradition. It didn't work out that way....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=53515D. I think Victor Boomer was supposed to solve that birth wt problem with the Keynote/Boomer cattle. Good bull but I wouldn't let him near a heifer. The statisticians will tell us that a young bull's EPDs are as likely to improve as they are too get worse and they are probably right; but it is that fast growing, growthy, thick calf that gets pulled out of the herd to be the next great thing NOT his less growthy flushmates and MOST of the time high growth comes with the high price of a high birth weight.

Listen to the above!

Pay attention to the EPD's; but as I'm sure you realize, your averages are based on assumptions and will change. Dont mortgage the ranch based on them.

 

[redfornow]

Well, I am not a big fan of 3008, but I can deal with the 3008 influence. Anyway, first thing is, are these 3008 daughters ET permitted? Are they proven donors? It just depends on what your trying to do? Let me know how everything works out. What are some of the bulls you are using? Take care and best of luck! Look this bull up one time, SHF Red Oak M326 R96 and tell me what you think. :cboy:

Your SHF Red Oak bull is a grandson of 3008.

Now thats funny....

MD

 

[Alan]

Just trying to keep up with this great conversation, is the 3008 bull you are refering to KCF BENNETT 3008 M116 ?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[HerefordSire]

We have a small herd, had one cow that we did get bred to Governor. The calf came easily at a weight of 74lbs. This was from a 1250lb 2nd calf cow. He is growing nicely and probably weighs in the ballpark of 450-500 no creep at 5months of age. I'll pull a HCF and tell you he is OCF Senator 236g s17, check him out in the coming years, he'll be for sale next spring.

I really like some of the 3008, of course my favorite and starting to be most proven sons is M326. It would be a close linebreeding, but I would use him in a couple of years when your cow's calves turn to cows. He might be a little harder on the heifers though he has a 1.7CE and I believe a 3.3BW

I believe Gov's momentum is slowly increasing whereas some other stars are slowly decreasing. I especially like him for his SC EPD....grapefruits... which should allow the projected 3008 offspring to be trait leaders. Maybe they will be extra fertile also. The projected milk certainly doesn't hurt either. If I project 24 MM and my donor's MM EPD, there is a good chance offspring could be a MM trait leaders. The 517 3008s are nice to work with (dream with) because they match up good for potential trait leaders.

It appears like you have something exciting occuring in your small herd. I would be interested to hear more about your experiences with the Senator...I likes the name. :heart:

 

[HerefordSire]

I noticed you wrote BW and Price. BW -- if I am projecting BW and have low BW donors, such as the 3008s, a high BW bull will almost be cut in half. Therefore, if the bull BW EPD is 10.00 and I have a donor BW of 1.0, I am close to being a trait leader after a little future line breeding.

We WISH it was that simple. Time after time breeders cross a high birth wt sire with a low birth wt cow and then sell a lot of semen because the breed association simply averages the two parents and puts a very very low accuracy EPD on that show winning yearling calf. Probably 85% of the time that birth wt EPD goes up when his calves come in. I remember when MSU Optimum Z03 was being touted as the low birth wt Mohican Tradition. It didn't work out that way....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=53515D. I think Victor Boomer was supposed to solve that birth wt problem with the Keynote/Boomer cattle. Good bull but I wouldn't let him near a heifer. The statisticians will tell us that a young bull's EPDs are as likely to improve as they are too get worse and they are probably right; but it is that fast growing, growthy, thick calf that gets pulled out of the herd to be the next great thing NOT his less growthy flushmates and MOST of the time high growth comes with the high price of a high birth weight.

Good point on PW Boomer surprise. I believe it is important to make sure my future clientele is satisified and the negative surprises are minimized so they will come back for more candy. It may be prudent for me to allow for EPD adjustments so that the projected offspring BW EPDs are higher than trait leaders. For example, if a trait leading BW is 1.9, maybe I should plan on projecting a 1.5 if I choose to pursue this category. I believe this is one category that 3008 does not lead in.