Play catch up or just sell and replace?

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I would never sell cattle that have been working for me and turn around and replace with unknowns.
You say they may be due late March, early April. Well, your proposed breeding program is for Feb/March. With a 60 day calving period, you will have a few the last 45-60 days. You should not have any problem breeding early April's in your May/June breeding. They will be almost 30 days post calving at the START of your 60 day breeding. I do it all the time. I have a 60 day calving period. My last calf is usually 1st week in March, and I start breeding end of March for a 1-1 due date. I have been 100% AI for most of my years breeding, but now breed AI for 35 days and turn a bull out for 30 days (65 days).
I would make sure you have a good mineral program or at least give a shot of Multimin 30 days prior to breeding. There are many on here that poo-poo a good mineral program, but I am a firm believer.
 
I would never sell cattle that have been working for me and turn around and replace with unknowns.
You say they may be due late March, early April. Well, your proposed breeding program is for Feb/March. With a 60 day calving period, you will have a few the last 45-60 days. You should not have any problem breeding early April's in your May/June breeding. They will be almost 30 days post calving at the START of your 60 day breeding. I do it all the time. I have a 60 day calving period. My last calf is usually 1st week in March, and I start breeding end of March for a 1-1 due date. I have been 100% AI for most of my years breeding, but now breed AI for 35 days and turn a bull out for 30 days (65 days).
I would make sure you have a good mineral program or at least give a shot of Multimin 30 days prior to breeding. There are many on here that poo-poo a good mineral program, but I am a firm believer.

I talked to my vet yesterday and this is exactly what he said.

Nutrition is not an issue. My cows are in good body condition and lately every year at least one set of twins is born and raised with the cow breeding back without a problem.
 
I talked to my vet yesterday and this is exactly what he said.

Nutrition is not an issue. My cows are in good body condition and lately every year at least one set of twins is born and raised with the cow breeding back without a problem.
That is good but bear in mind that a good mineral program will make a difference. Mineral fills in what is missing in forage.
Good luck to you!
 
I'm moving my breeding season to May - June so calve in late February through March.
Whatever you decide, I hope it works out well for you.
I have been thinking about doing the opposite. Shifting my Feb-Mar calving to May-Jun when there is green grass.
...Per Matt Makens, the weather pattern will be shifting from La Nina to El Nino. For me that signals the return of extreme spring flooding, downpours of cold rain, and strong winds. Might still have a couple calves in January. They do well when born during the "January Thaw."
 
I am AI trained, bred our dairy herd for many years, had a very good whole herd first service catch percentage (75%, with first breeding on second heat cycle after calving... anything past 45 days from calving). HOWEVER, with dairy, you're with those animals alot more, which translates into "you're observing them more" and "more carefully"... which translates into "you're getting your timing more right". We would breed religiously at the milking shift 12 hours after observed standing heat... but we were out there for hours every day twice a day, with cows in a "confinement" area where we could get them bred, because we had to milk them, and feed them. That's not typically the case with beef cows. So with less "observation and ability to confine and actually breed them ON TIME", you'll end up with a lower conception rate, regardless of how much you might want to make it work.

I say, forget the sequencing drugs, unless you're determined that you want to end up with less than a 3 week calving window (which you won't achieve anyway unless you're willing to sell any that don't make that cut, because some won't settle on the first service, even WITH a bull). Work diligently on nutrition and condition, and put enough good bull power in with them to get the job done. No matter how good you are with AI, you'll never be able to do it as effectively as natural servicing will.
 
RDFF, I agree with what you said - but I think he is looking at a 60 day breeding/calving season. That is very do-able 100% AI - IF, you observe your cattle at least 2x day. I generally walk thru my groups at lease 3-5 times a day.
The cheapest (and actually very good) sync program is:
Breed on observed heat for 5 days. GNRH (Lute) everything that has not cycled. "IF" your cattle are cycling, they should respond to the shot. I am a strong believer in using TOOLS - like I paint their tailhead AND put a scratch tag on them (Estrotec). But, these are tools. If there isn't any other sign - perky, discharge, swollen vulva - I just mark it down and watch in 18-24 days - or wait a week and Lutalyse them. My semen is mostly $50 (up to $200) - don't want to put it in a non-cycling cow. If you have 1 or several in heat at one time, they will "rape" jump other cows and mess up the "tools".
 
Whatever you decide, I hope it works out well for you.
I have been thinking about doing the opposite. Shifting my Feb-Mar calving to May-Jun when there is green grass.
...Per Matt Makens, the weather pattern will be shifting from La Nina to El Nino. For me that signals the return of extreme spring flooding, downpours of cold rain, and strong winds. Might still have a couple calves in January. They do well when born during the "January Thaw."
In a 10 year period, calving in my area of Texas in June is a death sentence. For most years out of 10 our last freeze is around February 15. I would rather deal with 1 or 2 days of cold than fighting pneumonia in newborns.
 
I would never sell cattle that have been working for me and turn around and replace with unknowns.
You say they may be due late March, early April. Well, your proposed breeding program is for Feb/March. With a 60 day calving period, you will have a few the last 45-60 days. You should not have any problem breeding early April's in your May/June breeding. They will be almost 30 days post calving at the START of your 60 day breeding. I do it all the time. I have a 60 day calving period. My last calf is usually 1st week in March, and I start breeding end of March for a 1-1 due date. I have been 100% AI for most of my years breeding, but now breed AI for 35 days and turn a bull out for 30 days (65 days).
I would make sure you have a good mineral program or at least give a shot of Multimin 30 days prior to breeding. There are many on here that poo-poo a good mineral program, but I am a firm believer.
I believe that minerals are part of a solid nutrition program. I don't think of it as separate.
You are right but there are a lot of cattle out there that are mineral deficient. Ol' boy buys a bag of the cheapest crap they can find then bitch when they have open cows.
 
RDFF, I agree with what you said - but I think he is looking at a 60 day breeding/calving season. That is very do-able 100% AI - IF, you observe your cattle at least 2x day. I generally walk thru my groups at lease 3-5 times a day.
The cheapest (and actually very good) sync program is:
Breed on observed heat for 5 days. GNRH (Lute) everything that has not cycled. "IF" your cattle are cycling, they should respond to the shot. I am a strong believer in using TOOLS - like I paint their tailhead AND put a scratch tag on them (Estrotec). But, these are tools. If there isn't any other sign - perky, discharge, swollen vulva - I just mark it down and watch in 18-24 days - or wait a week and Lutalyse them. My semen is mostly $50 (up to $200) - don't want to put it in a non-cycling cow. If you have 1 or several in heat at one time, they will "rape" jump other cows and mess up the "tools".
Everybody can and should do whatever they might feel is best for their own operation obviously. And if you don't ever want to mess with a bull on your operation, that's a personal preference... and if you have a cow/calf operation, that leaves you with these artificial "tools". Maybe you "need" to have genetics that are only available through AI... that's OK too. I'm just one who's not very eager to "mess with" the natural hormonal processes of the herd or individuals within it, and feel that the more we do this kind of thing, the more we're asking for problems. Now, that having been said, my custom grazed herd owner relies on this whole program heavily, because he's doing embryo implants.

My point though is, by using the "approved protocol" for artificially supplied hormone estrus synchronization along with AI, you're not really gaining all that much in actual "time" (to get the whole herd moved forward for a calving window), IF THAT IS YOUR PRIMARY BASIS FOR DOING IT, (and remember that is the question posted for this thread).

JSV has suggested her program is to "breed on observed heat for 5 days"... out of a 21 day cycle (so 25% of the cycle)... so that means that there's 16 days left for any that haven't been observed in heat. If the herd is evenly distributed in their cycles, that means that out of 100 head, 25 got bred (NOT conceived), and 75 didn't. "Then GNRH everything else".... so generally, that will mean 75% (75 head out of 100) gets GNRH. If the cow or heifer has large follicles (at least 10 mm in diameter) present on the ovary, GnRH will induce ovulation of these follicles about 24 to 30 hours after GnRH injection... so let's assume that 33% of the remaining 75 is there... so another 25 head that you observe in heat and breed... which gets you to 50% of the herd has been bred through 2 shots, all within 7-8 days. We've now got 50 of the 100 head bred (NOT conceived), and 50 still remaining unbred and open. Then JSV has suggested watching these 50 for 18-24 days (one normal cycle), or wait a week and Lutalyse them again.... let's assume the latter, so we can try to artificially move them up as much as possible. So that means a 7 day wait, plus 1.5 days, or 8.5 days to a timed breeding event on the remaining ones. We were already at 6.5 days to breeding for the first group, plus optimally out to 7-8 days for the second group of "synchro treated animals", so now we're at 14.5 days to breeding on this last group from day one of our 21 day cycle, and we've now gotten all 100 of them bred (NOT conceived).

Let's assume that you're achieving a really excellent confirmed pregnancy rate of 75% at first service with your AI program (according to generally recognized research, not realistic with synchronized timed breeding...) Understanding CIDR, "Overall pregnancy rates should exceed 55% of all cows synchronized, which is generally better than any heat detection protocol, Lamb adds."

Therefore, we should have 75 cows pregnant through these first three series, and we should have 25 left open... It's not mentioned in the JSV suggested protocol if we'll go back in on these 25 and try another round of synchronizing or not, so I will just leave it at that, and assume that we'll let them cycle normally after this, and then AI them again on observed heats. We will have 75 out of 100 that will calve within a 15 day window essentially. But you've also now "forced" those who didn't "catch" from the synchronized AI breeding to be coming back in for the most part 21 days from this second timed breeding point... because you've "moved" their cycle... AND, you've used a "reduced fertility breeding method" (AI vs. natural) to try to get them bred, for the breeding events you've just performed. Let's assume that we'll AI breed them on their next natural heat too, and let's assume that they'll be cycling distributed "normally" over the course of the next 21 days (which they won't, because we've "moved" their cycle with the synchronization shots... most will be 18-21 days after that last timed breeding opportunity)... so 25 cows, spread out over the next 21 days, of which 75% will "take" again... so that's another 19 cows, for a total of the herd to 94 that have "taken", spreading our calving window out to 14.5 + 21 = 35.5 days... and we'll have a remaining 6 that won't settle on that round and will be "outside of that window", or that just won't settle at all and will become culls???? 94% in 35.5 days... not a bad pregnancy rate or calving window for all AI... but of course, THIS IS THEORETICAL. But if I told you that's what I achieved through this program, you'd likely be "impressed", right? If you don't actually compare this against another potential option, it looks "pretty good".

However, now let's look at typical... BUT AGAIN THEORETICAL, ALL NATURAL SERVICE. If everything else is "right" nutritionally, fertility and condition wise, (as we have been assuming for the synchronized group in the example), we probably should be able to achieve at least 90% conception or better (90 cows) with a natural service system through our normal first 21 day cycle. We would have 70% of the remaining 10 cows second cycle occurring then in that next 14.5 days (to get to the same 35.5 days in the previous example)... so 7 of the remaining 10 animals should cycle naturally again and get bred naturally again within that 35.5 day period, again with a 90%+ settle rate. 7 animals x .90 = 6.3.... let's call it 6. We have 96 that have "taken", with 4 animals left that will then be calving "outside of that 35.5 day window", or that just won't settle at all, and will become culls. And we've achieved this "slightly higher percentage of calves within our 35.5 day calving window, with NO ADDITIONAL HANDLING, no observation required, no hormone/drug costs, no additional "tool costs" to catch/observe heats, and no vet fees, etc. (but of course, WITH a bull cost).

You can have your own opinions, but I think I've been somewhat generous toward the "synchro/AI" numbers, and somewhat critical of the "natural service" numbers in these calculations. Synchronization along with AI IS a "tool"... no doubt, but it's definitely not "THE tool", on its own, to achieve a tighter calving window, or to dramatically make a difference in "moving a cow up" very much, as opposed to simply using no synchro and natural service (what this thread is about). I'm still a believer in focusing on the nutrition/condition and then optimizing genetic fertility, more than I am in these "artificial tools" as a "cure".
 
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Everybody can and should do whatever they might feel is best for their own operation obviously. And if you don't ever want to mess with a bull on your operation, that's a personal preference... and if you have a cow/calf operation, that leaves you with these artificial "tools". Maybe you "need" to have genetics that are only available through AI... that's OK too. I'm just one who's not very eager to "mess with" the natural hormonal processes of the herd or individuals within it, and feel that the more we do this kind of thing, the more we're asking for problems. Now, that having been said, my custom grazed herd owner relies on this whole program heavily, because he's doing embryo implants.

My point though is, by using the "approved protocol" for artificially supplied hormone estrus synchronization along with AI, you're not really gaining all that much in actual "time" (to get the whole herd moved forward for a calving window), IF THAT IS YOUR PRIMARY BASIS FOR DOING IT, (and remember that is the question posted for this thread).

JSV has suggested her program is to "breed on observed heat for 5 days"... out of a 21 day cycle (so 25% of the cycle)... so that means that there's 16 days left for any that haven't been observed in heat. If the herd is evenly distributed in their cycles, that means that out of 100 head, 25 got bred (NOT conceived), and 75 didn't. "Then GNRH everything else".... so generally, that will mean 75% (75 head out of 100) gets GNRH. If the cow or heifer has large follicles (at least 10 mm in diameter) present on the ovary, GnRH will induce ovulation of these follicles about 24 to 30 hours after GnRH injection... so let's assume that 33% of the remaining 75 is there... so another 25 head that you observe in heat and breed... which gets you to 50% of the herd has been bred through 2 shots, all within 7-8 days. We've now got 50 of the 100 head bred (NOT conceived), and 50 still remaining unbred and open. Then JSV has suggested watching these 50 for 18-24 days (one normal cycle), or wait a week and Lutalyse them again.... let's assume the latter, so we can try to artificially move them up as much as possible. So that means a 7 day wait, plus 1.5 days, or 8.5 days to a timed breeding event on the remaining ones. We were already at 6.5 days to breeding for the first group, plus optimally out to 7-8 days for the second group of "synchro treated animals", so now we're at 14.5 days to breeding on this last group from day one of our 21 day cycle, and we've now gotten all 100 of them bred (NOT conceived).

Let's assume that you're achieving a really excellent confirmed pregnancy rate of 75% at first service with your AI program (according to generally recognized research, not realistic with synchronized timed breeding...) Understanding CIDR, "Overall pregnancy rates should exceed 55% of all cows synchronized, which is generally better than any heat detection protocol, Lamb adds."

Therefore, we should have 75 cows pregnant through these first two series, and we should have 25 left open... It's not mentioned in the JSV suggested protocol if we'll go back in on these 25 and try another round of synchronizing or not, so I will just leave it at that, and assume that we'll let them cycle normally after this, and then AI them again. We will have 75 out of 100 that will calve within a 15 day window essentially. But you've also now "forced" those who didn't "catch" from the synchronized AI breeding to be coming back in 21 days from this second breeding point... because you've "moved" their cycle... AND, you've used a "reduced fertility breeding method" (AI vs. natural) to try to get them bred, for BOTH cycles you've just performed (or for all three...). Let's assume that we'll AI breed them on their next natural heat too, and let's assume that they'll be cycling spread out "normally" over the course of the next 21 days (which they won't, because we've "moved" their cycle with the synchronization shots... most will be 18-21 days after that last breeding opportunity)... so 25 cows, spread out over the next 21 days, of which 75% will "take" again... so that's another 19 cows that will "take", spreading our calving window out to 14.5 + 21 = 35.5 days... and we'll have a remaining 6 that won't settle on that round and will be "outside of that window", or that just won't settle at all and will become culls???? 94% in 35.5 days... not a bad pregnancy rate or calving window for all AI... but of course, this is theoretical.

Now let's look at typical... BUT AGAIN THEORETICAL, ALL NATURAL SERVICE. If everything else is "right" nutritionally, fertility and condition wise, (as we have been assuming for the synchronized group in the example), we probably should have be able to achieve at least 90% conception or better (90 cows) with a natural service system through our normal first 21 day cycle. We would have 70% of the remaining 10 cows second cycle occurring then in that next 14.5 days (to get to the same 35.5 days in the previous example)... so 7 of the remaining 10 animals should cycle naturally again and get bred naturally again within that period, with a 90%+ settle rate. 7 animals x .90 = 6.3.... let's call it 6. We have 4 animals left that will then be calving "outside of that 35.5 day window", or that just won't settle at all, and will become culls. And we've achieved this "higher percentage of calves within our 35.5 day calving window, with NO ADDITIONAL HANDLING, no observation required, no hormone/drug costs, no additional "tool costs" to catch/observe heats, and no vet fees, etc. (but of course, WITH a bull cost).

Synchronization along with AI IS a "tool"... no doubt, but it's definitely not "THE tool", on it's own, to achieve a tighter calving window, or to dramatically make a difference in "moving a cow up" very much (what this thread is about), as opposed to simply using no synchro and natural service. I'm still a believer in focusing on the nutrition/condition and then genetic fertility, more than I am in these "artificial tools" as the "cure".
That was the long way around the horn and I assume it will work within the parameters articulated. Myself? I only keep heifers from
cows that calve in the 1st calving cycle. Your last paragraph was spot on. Thanks
 
When we started trying to go from a year around calving schedule to a 90 day march 15-june15 we left the bulls in longer and sold everything that didn't calve in 90 days. We still do it that way. Turn out the bulls first week of June and catch any cows that haven't calved and don't look like that will that week and sell them. That way your cull cows are likely to be heavy bred vs open. We leave the bulls in for say 4 or 5 months. Pull them in the fall sometimes when we wean sometimes before.
It's not perfect but selling heavy bred cows in June works out real well on a rainy year.
 
You can have your own opinions, but I think I've been somewhat generous toward the "synchro/AI" numbers, and somewhat critical of the "natural service" numbers in these calculations. Synchronization along with AI IS a "tool"... no doubt, but it's definitely not "THE tool", on its own, to achieve a tighter calving window, or to dramatically make a difference in "moving a cow up" very much, as opposed to simply using no synchro and natural service (what this thread is about).
What is your personal experience? Have you any?

I've had great success with synchronizing and AI. There are great benefits... and a few downsides. Everything we do is cost/benefit and we have to weigh our own priorities. In the case of the OP the expressed concern is with early breeding to bring animals into a specific window of time. In my own experience synchronizing and AI are the most likely to solve the specific concerns, as a one-off, single use solution, but using natural breeding may be a close second best.
 
What is your personal experience? Have you any?

I've had great success with synchronizing and AI. There are great benefits... and a few downsides. Everything we do is cost/benefit and we have to weigh our own priorities. In the case of the OP the expressed concern is with early breeding to bring animals into a specific window of time. In my own experience synchronizing and AI are the most likely to solve the specific concerns, as a one-off, single use solution, but using natural breeding may be a close second best.
Plenty of experience using synchro trying to move cows up, and trying to get cows bred that have had some trouble, when I was working with our dairy herd, which was 100% AI bred (and "successfully"... meaning a very good overall 1st service AI conception rate for a dairy herd, didn't have a bull on the place). Having that experience under my belt, I don't use these aids on my own beef herd now... but obviously, my much larger "custom grazing herd" does use them very heavily, with similar results. We're within the normal numbers always... but I don't personally see it as being terribly helpful, as my post explains. And of course, there are costs to be taken into account both ways... what works for you, works for you. No foul there...
 
In the case of the OP the expressed concern is with early breeding to bring animals into a specific window of time.
As far as "bringing animals into a specific window of time"... most cows will begin to cycle within 45 days of calving naturally, all on their own, but the conception rate will be lower at that point than if you're breeding them at/after 60 days (so another 2 weeks recovery time) because their reproductive system won't have recovered as well yet as a general rule from the pregnancy. If you're trying to bring them into heat and getting conception earlier than that by using synchronizing hormones, then you will get "some" to settle... but the conception rate won't be any better than it would be without using the hormone therapy, and the earlier into that "recovery period" you try to push them, the lower the chances of them conceiving will be... and that drops off pretty drastically if you're breeding much at all before 45 days, with either bull bred or AI. Typically, at 60 days, they'll be in their second cycle after calving, and at that point your chances of conception are about at their peak. If you're getting them settled at 60 days post-partum, that will mean you've moved them up about 21 days from their last calving date... 45 days will get you to about a month earlier.

The point is, if the bull is out there from the day that she calves on (on these late cows), and she DOES come into heat, he's going to breed her, whether she's "physically ready to conceive" or not... and there's no harm in that, no additional cost. The hormones won't help her to be ready to conceive, only will cause her to ovulate... IF she's already recovered to the point where she's going to ovulate anyway. She could potentially come into heat on her own in 14 days even (not very likely though)... and he'd still breed her. Anytime she comes in, he'll breed her, and she'll have every bit if not a better chance of conceiving when functioning on her own "natural hormones" as if she'd been synchronized and bred AI.

Again though, everybody should do what makes sense to them... it's a free country.
 
The hormones won't help her to be ready to conceive, only will cause her to ovulate...
I agree... which is the desired result.

And you can always run a clean-up bull and if she didn't breed he might catch her in time to be within the window anyways.

I don't see this as an either/or situation. If the synchronization doesn't work there is still a bull to fall back on.
 
I agree... which is the desired result.
Travlr, you didn't copy the whole "context" of my comment to which you replied though:

"only will cause her to ovulate... IF she's already recovered to the point where she's going to ovulate anyway"

And THAT is my point, in reference to "early breeding to bring animals into a specific window of time". If the hormones work, you're only going to bring her into heat maybe a week earlier than she would have come into heat anyway (.., If the cow or heifer has large follicles (at least 10 mm in diameter) present on the ovary, GnRH will induce ovulation of these follicles about 24 to 30 hours after GnRH injection...) AND, it will be pressing her further ahead into that period when she is "not ready to conceive". It "might" work, but the further you push her up into that post-partum period, the less likely she will be to conceive. If you push her up that week, and she doesn't conceive BECAUSE she isn't yet ready, but would have been "ready" a week later when she would have come into heat anyway, then she won't conceive until a LATER date, on her next cycle, because you pushed her into ovulating "too early", before she was ready to conceive.
And you can always run a clean-up bull and if she didn't breed he might catch her in time to be within the window anyways.
So in my view, if a clean-up bull is your plan, the hormone treatment will only really give you a "bonus opportunity potential" to maybe get a week earlier (with the "potential risk" of then getting her settled LATER on her next cycle...), with the added cost of the hormone treatments, added observation time, the cost of AI, and the added handling (which will add to the stress on the animal, which will potentially negatively impact her conception rate). If you're running a clean-up bull, it also might mean having to sort her off and keep her separated from the rest of the herd, so he doesn't breed her on that first "synchro cycle".

I'm not saying that anybody can't or shouldn't use this, if that's what they want to do in their operation. I'm just saying that it just wouldn't be worth the added expense and effort in my book. Give her that extra week to recover, get her in great condition, put a good bull with her, and get her settled at 45 days.
 
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In a 10 year period, calving in my area of Texas in June is a death sentence. For most years out of 10 our last freeze is around February 15. I would rather deal with 1 or 2 days of cold than fighting pneumonia in newborns.
I want to better understand your situation. Begin calving after the last frost (approx. Feb 15) thru March. I'm curious what causes high calf mortality in June? ...heat? ...flies? ...pneumonia?
 
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