Doubling up

[Warren Allison]

A lot of good traits there. Are the traits that make a "good cow" all visible to the eye? Can a person tell that a cow is "good" just by looking? Will the results of a livestock judging contest or cattle show select the "good" cows? My opinion - there are sometimes very "good" looking cows that don't raise good calves. Cow with good phenotype, stay in good condition, but raise small calves. The point of my post above is to point out that a visual "good cow" does not automatically select a true "good" cow. Production records come into play. Weaning weight ratios, mothering ability, docility, easy keeping, milk quality - all come into play in making a "good" cow. Sometimes the ugly cow may be a "good" cow. In the end, profit might need to be more important over looks for the cow/calf person. But we tend to like the pretty cattle.

Very good points. but you'd have to own the cow and raise some calves off of her to find those points out. When all of that info is not readily available to you, then the visual attributes are all you have to go on when evaluating one for purchase.

 

[Travlr]

A lot of good traits there. Are the traits that make a "good cow" all visible to the eye? Can a person tell that a cow is "good" just by looking? Will the results of a livestock judging contest or cattle show select the "good" cows? My opinion - there are sometimes very "good" looking cows that don't raise good calves. Cow with good phenotype, stay in good condition, but raise small calves. The point of my post above is to point out that a visual "good cow" does not automatically select a true "good" cow. Production records come into play. Weaning weight ratios, mothering ability, docility, easy keeping, milk quality - all come into play in making a "good" cow. Sometimes the ugly cow may be a "good" cow. In the end, profit might need to be more important over looks for the cow/calf person. But we tend to like the pretty cattle.

Yeah... I'm sure we've all seen cows that we wouldn't want based on looks, but they raise great calves.

But genetics are genetics. It's easier to get reliable results when we use animals that look like the calves we want to get. It's an imperfect system because we can't predict how a specific bull will have influence with a particular cow. At this point we do our best using what we know. Percentages and degrees...

This is why I advocate for people to quit buying cows based on how cheap they are. You buy ten cows because they are cheap and you get one or two that raises a good calf and the rest are marginal or culled, If you buy ten cows you would be proud to put in the front pasture there will always be one or two that raise the best calves... but the likelihood is that the rest are going to raise better calves that the cheap cows did. A couple of pennies a pound for a better looking cow will get you better calves that sell for more money, and over years of production.

 

[Dave]

Yeah... I'm sure we've all seen cows that we wouldn't want based on looks, but they raise great calves.

But genetics are genetics. It's easier to get reliable results when we use animals that look like the calves we want to get. It's an imperfect system because we can't predict how a specific bull will have influence with a particular cow. At this point we do our best using what we know. Percentages and degrees...

This is why I advocate for people to quit buying cows based on how cheap they are. You buy ten cows because they are cheap and you get one or two that raises a good calf and the rest are marginal or culled, If you buy ten cows you would be proud to put in the front pasture there will always be one or two that raise the best calves... but the likelihood is that the rest are going to raise better calves that the cheap cows did. A couple of pennies a pound for a better looking cow will get you better calves that sell for more money, and over years of production.

I don't know if that is exactly true. I buy lots of cheap cows. And I would bet that my profit margin this last year are as high as anyone.

Yesterday I bought 3 cows. A big raw boned Hereford cow 6 months bred who was empty empty. People didn't like her looks. She weighed 1,160. some feed she will weigh 1,400+ easy. I got her for $1,010. Less than 24 hours on feed and water she looks a lot better. A 6 month bred black cow who weighed 1,315. She has long toes on her back feet. A couple minutes in the chute with a set of loppers and she will have shorter toes. Only cost $1,125. That is $0.85 a pound. She will kill for that. And a nice looking black whiteface cow bred 7 who weighed 1,370. She cost me $1,350. I bet those 2 cheaper cows make every bit as much money as the more expensive one does. All 3 aged as being 8-9 years old.

 

[Travlr]

I don't know if that is exactly true. I buy lots of cheap cows. And I would bet that my profit margin this last year are as high as anyone.

Yesterday I bought 3 cows. A big raw boned Hereford cow 6 months bred who was empty empty. People didn't like her looks. She weighed 1,160. some feed she will weigh 1,400+ easy. I got her for $1,010. Less than 24 hours on feed and water she looks a lot better. A 6 month bred black cow who weighed 1,315. She has long toes on her back feet. A couple minutes in the chute with a set of loppers and she will have shorter toes. Only cost $1,125. That is $0.85 a pound. She will kill for that. And a nice looking black whiteface cow bred 7 who weighed 1,370. She cost me $1,350. I bet those 2 cheaper cows make every bit as much money as the more expensive one does. All 3 aged as being 8-9 years old.

You have a different business model and it works for you. One and dones... You aren't retaining for the long haul, and you aren't raising replacement heifers that you want to make the best kind of profit on. And are you putting together a large group of consistent calves to be sold every year?

The one and done model is a great way to make money and I can see it. But people that are retaining cows and trying to get the best prices on their calves take a hit when they have inconsistent colors, weights, and conformation. And they take a hit on the cows too, if they have to carry them over with bad feet and other problems.

I'm not knocking your methods at all. But it's not what I was talking about. If you were keeping cows you'd do better spending a few pennies a pound more and instead of buying one cow here or there and putting a bunch of cows based on cheap together, buying larger lots of good cows that all look alike and will drop calves that have a consistent result.

 

[farmerjan]

I went for years without ever having a set of twins, then I had 3 sets over the last 10 years.
It's exciting to see but I don't like having twins, the last two were raising their calves good, then all of a sudden the calves died on both cows.
Cows were in good shape but it happened over night?

Blackleg..... had that happen at a pasture once.... fine one day, dead 2 days later when we went back to check on them.... NOW, EVERY COW gets a black leg booster when they get preg checked .... and all calves get blackleg over 6-8 weeks old....

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

A lot of good traits there. Are the traits that make a "good cow" all visible to the eye? Can a person tell that a cow is "good" just by looking? Will the results of a livestock judging contest or cattle show select the "good" cows? My opinion - there are sometimes very "good" looking cows that don't raise good calves. Cow with good phenotype, stay in good condition, but raise small calves. The point of my post above is to point out that a visual "good cow" does not automatically select a true "good" cow. Production records come into play. Weaning weight ratios, mothering ability, docility, easy keeping, milk quality - all come into play in making a "good" cow. Sometimes the ugly cow may be a "good" cow. In the end, profit might need to be more important over looks for the cow/calf person. But we tend to like the pretty cattle.

This is an excellent statement. I have to admit you surprised. me.

 

[coachg]

Had to do some after dark manuvers tonight. Mom had left the bull calf on one side of the creek and took the heifer to the other side . Calf had not nursed since this am . Little fella was laying exact where mom had put him this morning . When I got them back together she smelled and licked them both and the bull nursed . I know it's confusing to her but she's got to help me . Leaving tomorrow so she's on her own till Sunday.

 

[Dave]

You have a different business model and it works for you. One and dones... You aren't retaining for the long haul, and you aren't raising replacement heifers that you want to make the best kind of profit on. And are you putting together a large group of consistent calves to be sold every year?

But I have retained for the long haul. I have raised replacement heifers. And I have put together large groups of consistent calves to be sold every year. And I did all three of those things for a number of years. I am just doing the one and done right now because it works both financially and for my circumstances at the present time. Buying the more expensive and "better" cattle does not guarantee success. Just as buying cheaper cattle of "lesser" quality doesn't guarantee failure. Developing an eye for cattle and knowing the words to the song "know when to hold them and knowing when to fold them". Is much more likely to be the road to success. Because like the other line in that song, "not every hand is a winner and not every hand is a loser."

 

[Travlr]

But I have retained for the long haul. I have raised replacement heifers. And I have put together large groups of consistent calves to be sold every year. And I did all three of those things for a number of years. I am just doing the one and done right now because it works both financially and for my circumstances at the present time. Buying the more expensive and "better" cattle does not guarantee success. Just as buying cheaper cattle of "lesser" quality doesn't guarantee failure. Developing an eye for cattle and knowing the words to the song "know when to hold them and knowing when to fold them". Is much more likely to be the road to success. Because like the other line in that song, "not every hand is a winner and not every hand is a loser."

I've never said anyone would "fail" by buying low quality cows. I'm saying that a few pennies more to buy better animals with more consistency will net a higher return if that is the only factor that is different. And yeah... that's knowing when to hold'em.

It's feasible that you could put together a herd of a hundred low quality cows that would produce calves that get yield a higher return than a better looking group of consistent cows. And it's possible that a Clydesdale could win a race running against a Thoroughbred.

I'd love to compare results, but I'm no longer in the business. You say lucky me... and I say lucky you.

Tell me that a mixed herd of cheap cows producing a mixed bunch of inconsistent colors, everything from high weaning fleshy to runty half dairy looking calves will get better profits than a herd of consistent black, similar weight, and fleshy beef type calves.

Go ahead... tell me that. Find some way to make that true. And not in some one off situation... but every year.

I see a lot of people buying as cheap as they can and believing they are doing the best they can. But then, how many times have they tested their results?

 

[Travlr]

@Dave, It's really about spending your money to get the best value. Just like shopping for a truck, you can buy the cheapest thing you can find... or the cheapest thing that will do the job you want done.

And that's not a debate... it's just a fact.

 

[wbvs58]

I don't know if that is exactly true. I buy lots of cheap cows. And I would bet that my profit margin this last year are as high as anyone.

Yesterday I bought 3 cows. A big raw boned Hereford cow 6 months bred who was empty empty. People didn't like her looks. She weighed 1,160. some feed she will weigh 1,400+ easy. I got her for $1,010. Less than 24 hours on feed and water she looks a lot better. A 6 month bred black cow who weighed 1,315. She has long toes on her back feet. A couple minutes in the chute with a set of loppers and she will have shorter toes. Only cost $1,125. That is $0.85 a pound. She will kill for that. And a nice looking black whiteface cow bred 7 who weighed 1,370. She cost me $1,350. I bet those 2 cheaper cows make every bit as much money as the more expensive one does. All 3 aged as being 8-9 years old.

Yes Dave the thing about what you do is that the cows do all the work on selection for you, by being 8-9 years old they must have proven themselves to stay around. A good chance they have been kept because they raise a good calf and that they have produced a calf every year.

Ken

 

[Dave]

Yes Dave the thing about what you do is that the cows do all the work on selection for you, by being 8-9 years old they must have proven themselves to stay around. A good chance they have been kept because they raise a good calf and that they have produced a calf every year.

Ken

That is true and amongst the reasons I do this.

 

[Dave]

I've never said anyone would "fail" by buying low quality cows. I'm saying that a few pennies more to buy better animals with more consistency will net a higher return if that is the only factor that is different. And yeah... that's knowing when to hold'em.

I would like to know where you can buy those "better cattle" for a few pennies more? Those few pennies is more like a handful of $100 bills. Often a thousand dollars plus more.

 

[Travlr]

I would like to know where you can buy those "better cattle" for a few pennies more? Those few pennies is more like a handful of $100 bills. Often a thousand dollars plus more.

I said many times that I made my business model on buying cows culled for age. Very similar to what you do. The only differences are that I was looking for larger lots of consistent animals just having weaned a calf and in good condition. And where (I think) you are just looking for cheap and bred to calve in a fairly similar window, my criteria was more consistent high quality and a type. They are still long bred kill cows, and I'm buying them for one bid over kill prices. You buy the skinny ones and make money off getting them in better condition, and I respect that. I pay a few pennies more per pound and the cows are in their working clothes but in better condition than yours (perhaps).

Ya know, I'm kind of surprised that you seem so defensive. I admire your business model and would have done it myself if I hadn't had another model that I liked slightly better. And I only used this strategy in SD, and not in Arkansas. I've entertained other business models and like some I haven't tried.

 

[farmerjan]

I am going to stick my nose in here because I don't think @Dave was as defensive, as you @Travlr are so quick to put your opinion out there in an aggressive manner, as if it was the only "better way" to go.... buy a better cow for a "few pennies more"...your criteria was more consistent and higher quality.... when around here @Dave is right... they are $100's more...not pennies on the dollar.....and someone that knows cattle, can buy and find the better cattle in the "cheaper ones"....

I agree with buying older proven cows at sales where they are downsizing or just selling off the older cows... we know a guy that sells his cows over 8-10 years old every year... we have bought a few and gotten some nice calves to raise as keepers... and had some not so good ones also...
I also buy a few one and dones.... we dabble with a few of them. Dave obviously has the eye to buy them and make money on them... and does it consistently for several years. This is not for people that are not well "versed" in cattle ....
If someone is a "newer" cattle person, they probably should buy some that are more consistent in type and color, if they want a more consistent calf crop... but there is no one model for others of more experience, and saying that people should do xyz because you have done it and it is the way to do it, is being a little too .........opinionated.

 

[Travlr]

I am going to stick my nose in here because I don't think @Dave was as defensive, as you @Travlr are so quick to put your opinion out there in an aggressive manner, as if it was the only "better way" to go.... buy a better cow for a "few pennies more"...your criteria was more consistent and higher quality.... when around here @Dave is right... they are $100's more...not pennies on the dollar.....and someone that knows cattle, can buy and find the better cattle in the "cheaper ones"....

I agree with buying older proven cows at sales where they are downsizing or just selling off the older cows... we know a guy that sells his cows over 8-10 years old every year... we have bought a few and gotten some nice calves to raise as keepers... and had some not so good ones also...
I also buy a few one and dones.... we dabble with a few of them. Dave obviously has the eye to buy them and make money on them... and does it consistently for several years. This is not for people that are not well "versed" in cattle ....
If someone is a "newer" cattle person, they probably should buy some that are more consistent in type and color, if they want a more consistent calf crop... but there is no one model for others of more experience, and saying that people should do xyz because you have done it and it is the way to do it, is being a little too .........opinionated.

So pretty much what I said...

 

[Dave]

So here is a picture of this years cows. On 61 cows I average right about $1,225. I am certain they average weighing more than 1,200 pounds. So without doing a bunch of paper work to find the exact weight I will say they average 1,225 pounds. So a dollar per pound. That is just barely above kill price. You just can't buy them any cheaper. A couple cents a pound more is $1.02. Hmmmm. I will be out bidding you at that price. My self imposed limit is $1,400. So on that 1,225 pound cow that is $1.14. But I haven't had to pay that. I have seen some sell for more than that and I watched them go. I am not afraid to buy a thin cow or one that is off for some reason. But I most certainly buy real good cows that I can get bought cheap enough. The price I pay doesn't make a cow any better or worse.
I counted this morning while feeding. There is 4 Charolais cross cows and 8 red hided cows. The rest are black or black whitefaced cows. This year the calves will be mixed because who know what the bulls were. But if I were to put good black bulls with them I would get a calf crop which will sell at or very near the top of the market. If that were my plan I could get 2 to 5 more calves out of these cows (they are not all broken mouth). And in 2021 they split steers into 3 groups by weight. 2 of those 3 were the top selling calves in their weight group that day. The heifers were a cent or two off the absolute top that day. And those calves came out of cheap cows.
I guess I should have gone in for some close up picture of individuals.

 

[Dave]

So all this got me thinking. And it is kind of frosty out this morning. A good day to do a little paper work.
The cows averaged weighing 1,276 pounds. Bigger than I thought they would average.
I paid $1,201 average. Less than I thought I was in to the them.
That works out to a $0.94 per pound average. That is as cheap as you can buy cows which will calf
Now I will have to run out on the quad and get some close up individual pictures.

 

[mwj]

Make sure the photos are from at least 3 angles and with 2 or more backgrounds!! Other than that it looks like a nice set of cows.

 

[coachg]

Son had enough of the cow with the twins and moved them to our small front pasture. If she runs off and leaves one now it can find her !