Pharo cattle company

[Nesikep]

My problem with EPD's and bulls from big breeders.. They all have the feed truck because they all want 1200+ lb bulls at a year old ready to go to work at full steam.. and in a way I understand that because who wants to feed an animal another year before they get to size. but the long and the short of it is they don't feed the way most commercial producers feed their stock, so it kinda throws the numbers way off.. when I see WW numbers over 800 I get real suspicious of the feed plan. I'd rather buy a 700lb WW bull from a place where he was the heaviest than from the place the 700 lb boy was the lightest!
Then there's the EPD accuracy, where all the big breeders sell to big breeders for big dollars and all the calves get registered, and they all have the same management, and the small breeder that actually sells to the producers is kinda left with low accuracy EPD's because the commercial guy doesn't register the calves (like me)

 

[Nesikep]

If you are such a expert , ship all your cattle south to Texas , where the op is and see how well they hold up in those conditions.
Even if you are 51 years old with 70 years of raising cattle I don't think you have any experience raising cattle in the area the op is in so you have no clue what cattle will make money in those conditions

Have you seen the pics of Dave's range? it ain't exactly a lush place and the cows do have to work for their food

 

[Ebenezer]

Same as above, too. I have a corriente heifer I'm trying to get bred to a beef bull. I'll post what I sell her calf for if she successfully raises one. Open to being wrong. At least I put my money where my mouth is.

As if everybody else is lying? Climb down off of the pedestal.

 

[simme]

Everyone has to decide and figure out for themselves what works and makes money for them. But a couple of observations that seem to fit conditions in my area.
A $5000 bull from 44 Farms and such places probably ain't gonna pencil out for a small producer here selling commodity cattle.
If I could make the money on corriente cattle that are claimed by some here, I see no reason to upgrade to more expensive angus cows and a $5000 bull. If those low input cattle return the money claimed, I would not use them as a stepping stone to own higher cost cattle. I would just keep on raking in the gold from those $400 cows.

 

[andybob]

Help me understand - -

why does the feed consumption math based on body wt. not work?

Johann gives an excellent explanation in the workshop video - https://sangacattle.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/18906811-sustainable-ranching

 

[Rmc]

Have you seen the pics of Dave's range? it ain't exactly a lush place and the cows do have to work for their food

Travel to a cattle sale in the area Dave is in then travel to one in Texas where the rocfarm is from . Look at all the cattle in the rough country along the way. You will find out they are totally different environments and totally different types of cattle in totally different environments.

 

[Ned Jr.]

The use of AI and shorter (height) resultant calves keeps coming up. Some of this is purely lack of environmental fit. If they AI sire fit, the growth would be obviously better. But most performance in AI sires is likely fed in and not 100% bred in. Dr. Bonsma said that if the calf crop for a bull had bull calves smaller than heifer calves, on average, the lack of environmental fit via gestational programming was the issue. Yet the world keeps chasing the low BW bulls. So I think it is thinking in a rut.

Could you elaborate on this? {Dr. Bonsma said that if the calf crop for a bull had bull calves smaller than heifer calves, on average, the lack of environmental fit via gestational programming was the issue. Yet the world keeps chasing the low BW bulls. So I think it is thinking in a rut.}

 

[farmerjan]

One thing about the whole todo about these corrientes... the environment where they are has as much to do with it as anything. They will cost @Dave and anyone out there in his area/environment. They will make money for those in Texas and Alabama and other areas where they are more common and fit the environment.

I have a longhorn that I keep for a "pasture ornament"... I like her. Her dam cost me $350 with her by her side. Both were white with black nose ears etc. Cow had been dehorned and they botched one side... obvious longhorn. Son thought I was nuts. I kept the heifer as she was growing a nice set of horns and cow was very protective of all the calves in that field. Cow next had a dead bull calf and got shipped. Got back $300 in cull price... so I was out of pocket $50 on purchase price. Not one I would even try to foster a calf on.

Kept the heifer as she would not bring much at the sale. Got bred to a black angus... had a heifer calf, white with speckles, polled... son was telling me what a waste... I said, my money not yours. Grew a NICE set of horns... and ran off a couple of dogs chasing some young first calf heifers with their new calves.... OKAY..... GOOD livestock guardian COW.... bred back right away... 11 1/2 months has a black bull calf... polled . He got graded in with other calves... great growth and she had what I would call a "teacup sized udder..." Bred right back again to a different black angus bull... had a set of twin black polled heifer calves... one didn't make it.... and the one she has now is a chunk.... showing just a little more "leather" than the last bull calf. She still has a nice little udder. Stays in very good condition.... and will not tolerate strange dogs and probably not coyotes. I have never had her in to preg check as we have nothing wide enough to get her head through sideways... getting closer to weaning this calf and she looks bred.... If she calves she gets to stay...AGAIN.... if she should come up open she will get hamburgered and her head and horns on my wall....
She made me money in the bull/steer calf I sold... He brought over $800 last year. He was state graded when we took a load of steers in to the sale. No one picked him out. After they were graded, and weighed, I asked 2 different guys there if they could pick out the longhorn cross calf and not one did....
But many of them do show more signs of their ancestry. The thing of it is that her heifer is going in with the breeding group because she is speckled like a Speckled Park and would be giveaway priced... She is half black angus... have a 75% chance of a black calf out of her. Would have bred her sooner but had a mixed group and we don't want fall calves on 1st calf heifers, and this group was not convenient to get back in to breed for next year. Plus she still might just get in the group to be finished and killed in June instead.
The 6 month old heifer calf on her now will probably be kept because she is: #1, a nice calf, and #2, a bit of a friendlier calf. She will probably be kept and bred too. But that is another year down the road to make that decision. We don't calve out heifers until they are 27-30 months because we do not push for early growth. I like them a little more mature and they drop a calf and take care of it and go on.....
We have calved them out 22-24 months and have not done well.... AGAIN... OUR STYLE and OUR ENVIRONMENT and our conditions.

You find what works and then try to improve it with some better genetics.... and try to not lose any money in the process, but to make some back on them.

 

[alacowman1]

One thing about the whole todo about these corrientes... the environment where they are has as much to do with it as anything. They will cost @Dave and anyone out there in his area/environment. They will make money for those in Texas and Alabama and other areas where they are more common and fit the environment.

I have a longhorn that I keep for a "pasture ornament"... I like her. Her dam cost me $350 with her by her side. Both were white with black nose ears etc. Cow had been dehorned and they botched one side... obvious longhorn. Son thought I was nuts. I kept the heifer as she was growing a nice set of horns and cow was very protective of all the calves in that field. Cow next had a dead bull calf and got shipped. Got back $300 in cull price... so I was out of pocket $50 on purchase price. Not one I would even try to foster a calf on.

Kept the heifer as she would not bring much at the sale. Got bred to a black angus... had a heifer calf, white with speckles, polled... son was telling me what a waste... I said, my money not yours. Grew a NICE set of horns... and ran off a couple of dogs chasing some young first calf heifers with their new calves.... OKAY..... GOOD livestock guardian COW.... bred back right away... 11 1/2 months has a black bull calf... polled . He got graded in with other calves... great growth and she had what I would call a "teacup sized udder..." Bred right back again to a different black angus bull... had a set of twin black polled heifer calves... one didn't make it.... and the one she has now is a chunk.... showing just a little more "leather" than the last bull calf. She still has a nice little udder. Stays in very good condition.... and will not tolerate strange dogs and probably not coyotes. I have never had her in to preg check as we have nothing wide enough to get her head through sideways... getting closer to weaning this calf and she looks bred.... If she calves she gets to stay...AGAIN.... if she should come up open she will get hamburgered and her head and horns on my wall....
She made me money in the bull/steer calf I sold... He brought over $800 last year. He was state graded when we took a load of steers in to the sale. No one picked him out. After they were graded, and weighed, I asked 2 different guys there if they could pick out the longhorn cross calf and not one did....
But many of them do show more signs of their ancestry. The thing of it is that her heifer is going in with the breeding group because she is speckled like a Speckled Park and would be giveaway priced... She is half black angus... have a 75% chance of a black calf out of her. Would have bred her sooner but had a mixed group and we don't want fall calves on 1st calf heifers, and this group was not convenient to get back in to breed for next year. Plus she still might just get in the group to be finished and killed in June instead.
The 6 month old heifer calf on her now will probably be kept because she is: #1, a nice calf, and #2, a bit of a friendlier calf. She will probably be kept and bred too. But that is another year down the road to make that decision. We don't calve out heifers until they are 27-30 months because we do not push for early growth. I like them a little more mature and they drop a calf and take care of it and go on.....
We have calved them out 22-24 months and have not done well.... AGAIN... OUR STYLE and OUR ENVIRONMENT and our conditions.

You find what works and then try to improve it with some better genetics.... and try to not lose any money in the process, but to make some back on them.

I'm in Alabama, if your Raising correinte here, your not doing it because of the environment..

 

[farmerjan]

Okay, @alacowman1 ... I was thinking heat tolerance and things like tick tolerance for the corriente cattle... and I know Alabama gets hot. I did not mean it as an insult....just thinking "south" . I know there are alot of cattle with "leather" in the south.... and there are alot of rodeos and such so there have got to be some longhorn/corriente types. And I see alot of sale catalogs with brahma influence also... They would not do good here either... And I imagine they would not do as good in @Dave 's part of the country or up in the Canadian ranchers areas...
NOT IMPLYING that your cattle, or anyone else's are "inferior"... Sorry if it was taken that way.

 

[alacowman1]

Okay, @alacowman1 ... I was thinking heat tolerance and things like tick tolerance for the corriente cattle... and I know Alabama gets hot. I did not mean it as an insult....just thinking "south" . I know there are alot of cattle with "leather" in the south.... and there are alot of rodeos and such so there have got to be some longhorn/corriente types. And I see alot of sale catalogs with brahma influence also... They would not do good here either... And I imagine they would not do as good in @Dave 's part of the country or up in the Canadian ranchers areas...
NOT IMPLYING that your cattle, or anyone else's are "inferior"... Sorry if it was taken that way.

wasn't insulted ,now Brahman influence we have plenty of..here in north Alababma 1/4 Brahman is the ticket..mine are high percentage Angus with some Brahma in there

 

[Dave]

If you are such a expert , ship all your cattle south to Texas , where the op is and see how well they hold up in those conditions.
Even if you are 51 years old with 70 years of raising cattle I don't think you have any experience raising cattle in the area the op is in so you have no clue what cattle will make money in those conditions

You are just about to join a very small group. People who I have hit the ignore button . Bye

 

[Rmc]

You are just about to join a very small group. People who I have hit the ignore button . Bye

Some people just can't handle any other points of view but there own.
And can't handle the truth getting in the way of their opinion.
Bye bye Dave

 

[elkwc]

Unless the feed is cheap grass not being utilized. Know guys in Texas that have never been without ungrazed pasture, even during bad droughts. Keeping cattle a bit longer is not as painful for them, although the extra protein costs make them a little less profitable during that time.

Talked to an old hand two weeks ago and he's decided to keep his stocking rate at 30% of capacity for the foreseeable future. Can't see him hurting from keeping something a little longer, say, overwintering a thin, barren cow then letting her fatten up in spring to sell in better condition, especially if his protein supplement is cheap.

I agree if you have extra pasture and hay. We opened our last ungrazed pasture 2 weeks ago. They finished stripping cotton yesterday so hope they haul the bales soon so we can turn on it. They are a month late and that has hurt us some. We will use the cotton pasture for the cows with latte summer and early fall calves. Hopefully we will have some wheat pasture in 4-6 weeks we can utilize. Feed is high. So we are trying to get by as cheap as possible. Would rather use our pasture for replacements, weaned calves and cows in the herd.

 

[rocfarm]

That 70% unused capacity still has a cost. Land and fences are not free for the taking. You have to figure all costs before you declare a profit.

Yup, it does. But the cost varies from year to year and in each area. In an area like central Texas, pretty sells. So if you can improve the aesthetic by under-stocking, you'll get 20% more for your place if you want to sell. And hunters are up to $1500 to $2000 per gun in some places, so that kind of trumps the 12 dollars per head per month I was offered by the last guy who wanted to lease my place.

One reason I decided to run my own herd was precisely so I could improve the aesthetics by under stocking. Seems to be working. They upped my taxes by 54% last year. Didn't really see THAT coming from simply improving the environmental factors on my place.

What impressed me about that older cattleman was that rain or shine, drought or abundance, his outlook and position seemed to give him lots of negotiating power in any situation. Might have been a bit envious….

 

[rocfarm]

The lease rates here are very often by the head per month and $30 a month for cow/calf is not unusual over a lot of the west. Anything under $20 a month is considered a great deal. I have read Greg Judy's books, about 25 years ago. As with everything there are points to learn but it isn't all the gospel. As for Warren the term all hat and no cow comes to mind and I will leave it to that. If you want to take others word for what works best listen to people who actually own cattle and have done it for years. Even better find people who make their living off cattle.
As for the older guy comment, if you consider a 51 year old man as older...... well I have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel. I started raising my first calf in 1959. I bought first steers and bred cows on my own in 1967. I have been at this a few years. Probably 25-30 weeks of the year I sit in 2 cows sales every week. I know and talk to buyers who buy for huge feedlots I see what they buy and don't buy. I see what those Correinte and Longhorn cross calves sell for and I understand why they bring what they do.
You might go read my longhorn cross thread. Those are real actual numbers from cattle purchased and sold in 2022.
You seem to be one to read and research things. Look at what Jim Gerrish has written about pasture management. There are a number of others I could recommend if you are interested. These are people who I know personally not key board experts.

Again, plan to post how it goes for me here. Fully aware my story might end up being one of what NOT to do. Or I could be right.

Most likely outcome is that I, like most people, will fall somewhere in between.

But I already worked out the finances. Willing to take the risks because 1) So far they don't seem bad ; 2) Even if I lose the money, I had my kids around the farm, got in shape, and got to be outside around wildlife a lot; and 3) There are a lot of smart hard-working people in the cattle business, even with the Pharo Cattle Co. It's fun to have a chance to be right, be wrong, or some of both on this forum. Pretty obvious that the state of the American cattle industry is both getting better and providing more diversification options.



Win/win/win!

Happy New Year!

 

[rocfarm]

I agree if you have extra pasture and hay. We opened our last ungrazed pasture 2 weeks ago. They finished stripping cotton yesterday so hope they haul the bales soon so we can turn on it. They are a month late and that has hurt us some. We will use the cotton pasture for the cows with latte summer and early fall calves. Hopefully we will have some wheat pasture in 4-6 weeks we can utilize. Feed is high. So we are trying to get by as cheap as possible. Would rather use our pasture for replacements, weaned calves and cows in the herd.

My kind of model. Feed inputs minimized. Can hold out longer in a drought or if commodities markets go weird on the feed or cattle price side.

 

[rocfarm]

There are lots of sales that show bulls averaging $5k... here we figure 3500 gets you a pretty decent bull. We have bought many in the 2-2500 range.
I fully agree with the finding a farmer wanting to get a new bull (maybe he keeps some heifers and don't want them breeding back to sire)... We have bought several that way over the years. Got a nice bull now, came from a herd dispersal, bought as an adult of 4-5 yrs old...NO PAPERS or INFO... Just looking at the calves the cows with him had on the ground;..... still using him and we have had him for 7 years. Don't know how much longer he will be good, but he has more than earned his price; about 2200 if I remember correctly.
Bought the "old bull" from our friend when he was "trading him in"... and kept him for several years. Always liked his calves. Paid cull bull ...pound ... price.

We rent alot of smaller pastures and have to have multiple bulls to put out since AI is not an option at most places. So I can keep track and not use a sire on a daughter very often.
We have 2 calving ease bulls we bought when we were first getting to where we could afford something better than a "stockyard bull". Got one in 2013 and one in 2014... STILL use both on heifers... Quiet gentle easy breeders. Not had one heifer get hurt/rode down.... Both will stay until they quit making good semen. I can use them on heifers that are not their direct daughters so not directly in/line breeding. We don't keep alot of heifers out of heifers but do keep some. If they are out of good cows that have a good track record and they are in the "better" than their peers, they get kept. I like to see what the heifer does before I keep a calf out of her... but when you know the "family" then they get a better consideration.

Most of our cows are in the 1100-1200 range and it seems to work for us. Some have some dairy in the woodpile from my first cows... some are recent dairy crossed cows, from heifers I raised on nurse cows and then bred them. Have culled out the more "dairyish" ones because they have trouble holding their weight and breeding back. If they are a 1/2 dairy/beef... they get run out with the beef animals... make it or leave. Sold 2 this past year... nice calves plenty of milk... and came up open.... BYE..... if I have one I use to foster a calf on or raise 2 calves, they have a different set of standards and rules to follow. If one comes up open and will take a 2nd calf after I wean her own, she goes back to get bred....
Dairy cows are my passion I guess you would say... But they have to earn their keep in my situation. But the value is in making them pay their way.... and pay you something back for all your inputs....

Great description and info! Appreciate it!

 

[rocfarm]

My problem with EPD's and bulls from big breeders.. They all have the feed truck because they all want 1200+ lb bulls at a year old ready to go to work at full steam.. and in a way I understand that because who wants to feed an animal another year before they get to size. but the long and the short of it is they don't feed the way most commercial producers feed their stock, so it kinda throws the numbers way off.. when I see WW numbers over 800 I get real suspicious of the feed plan. I'd rather buy a 700lb WW bull from a place where he was the heaviest than from the place the 700 lb boy was the lightest!
Then there's the EPD accuracy, where all the big breeders sell to big breeders for big dollars and all the calves get registered, and they all have the same management, and the small breeder that actually sells to the producers is kinda left with low accuracy EPD's because the commercial guy doesn't register the calves (like me)

View attachment 24413

Good comment. It does seem hard to cut through all the adverts and possibly played with numbers to really see what would work for one's own operation. One reason I went cheap. Afraid the more expensive genetics won't lead to higher profits, just more work.

But it's hard to not want a looker of a bull with good EPDs. Maybe some day…

 

[rocfarm]

One thing about the whole todo about these corrientes... the environment where they are has as much to do with it as anything. They will cost @Dave and anyone out there in his area/environment. They will make money for those in Texas and Alabama and other areas where they are more common and fit the environment.

I have a longhorn that I keep for a "pasture ornament"... I like her. Her dam cost me $350 with her by her side. Both were white with black nose ears etc. Cow had been dehorned and they botched one side... obvious longhorn. Son thought I was nuts. I kept the heifer as she was growing a nice set of horns and cow was very protective of all the calves in that field. Cow next had a dead bull calf and got shipped. Got back $300 in cull price... so I was out of pocket $50 on purchase price. Not one I would even try to foster a calf on.

Kept the heifer as she would not bring much at the sale. Got bred to a black angus... had a heifer calf, white with speckles, polled... son was telling me what a waste... I said, my money not yours. Grew a NICE set of horns... and ran off a couple of dogs chasing some young first calf heifers with their new calves.... OKAY..... GOOD livestock guardian COW.... bred back right away... 11 1/2 months has a black bull calf... polled . He got graded in with other calves... great growth and she had what I would call a "teacup sized udder..." Bred right back again to a different black angus bull... had a set of twin black polled heifer calves... one didn't make it.... and the one she has now is a chunk.... showing just a little more "leather" than the last bull calf. She still has a nice little udder. Stays in very good condition.... and will not tolerate strange dogs and probably not coyotes. I have never had her in to preg check as we have nothing wide enough to get her head through sideways... getting closer to weaning this calf and she looks bred.... If she calves she gets to stay...AGAIN.... if she should come up open she will get hamburgered and her head and horns on my wall....
She made me money in the bull/steer calf I sold... He brought over $800 last year. He was state graded when we took a load of steers in to the sale. No one picked him out. After they were graded, and weighed, I asked 2 different guys there if they could pick out the longhorn cross calf and not one did....
But many of them do show more signs of their ancestry. The thing of it is that her heifer is going in with the breeding group because she is speckled like a Speckled Park and would be giveaway priced... She is half black angus... have a 75% chance of a black calf out of her. Would have bred her sooner but had a mixed group and we don't want fall calves on 1st calf heifers, and this group was not convenient to get back in to breed for next year. Plus she still might just get in the group to be finished and killed in June instead.
The 6 month old heifer calf on her now will probably be kept because she is: #1, a nice calf, and #2, a bit of a friendlier calf. She will probably be kept and bred too. But that is another year down the road to make that decision. We don't calve out heifers until they are 27-30 months because we do not push for early growth. I like them a little more mature and they drop a calf and take care of it and go on.....
We have calved them out 22-24 months and have not done well.... AGAIN... OUR STYLE and OUR ENVIRONMENT and our conditions.

You find what works and then try to improve it with some better genetics.... and try to not lose any money in the process, but to make some back on them.

Thanks for this. It seems to confirm that if one is willing to be patient, work with what you've got and not push things to the point where what's not broke doesn't need to be fixed, things have a good chance to work out in the end. I think I've got a pretty good beef bull on my corriente, so I could get lucky. She only weighs 550lbs to 600lbs, so feed cost is lower, too, so, technically two $500 calves and selling her for recovery value will get my money back. If the calves make $700 or more, profit!