Pharo cattle company

[rocfarm]

There is plenty of potential there , if someone is willing to think outside the box.

I am interested in where you found this"common knowledge "
Most I know of have been slightly reducing frame size in commercial cattle . Most consider the frame race and the crazy sizes that result as not a financially viable .
The thing I look at at some of the "odd ball " or "niche" breeds is the possibility of the in taped genetics .since for the most part they have not been exposed to the craziness of the latest fad . Be it frame race , or black hide or bust craze ect.

Texas A&M lectures, I think on beef short course, but I didn't take down the source. But the professor, who also had been running his own operations and been involved in others plus research said, "The F1 Braford is the gold standard for quality of mother cows in southern Texas." I found a little breeding table in another publication that showed Bos Indicus (Brahman) and Bos taurus were farthest apart genetically, and within the bos taurus the Hereford was more genetically distinct from many of the other breeds. So I figured the logic was if you get a huge amount of hybrid vigor from the F1 Braford and then add a different set of genes in the form of angus or charolais, then you really get some stout, fast-growing calves. Not to mention the cross fits the climate so no weather stress…

Braford heifers seem to always sell at a premium. Seen the best quality Golden certified brafords go for$3000 or more IN GROUPS 5 and over, pen after pen.

If I could handle them and wasn't so poor starting out, I'd be interested in raising heifers for that market. But I think one loses on the steer side, so would have to research it.

And when I looked at a few videos of guys trying to handle 10 or more Brafords in corrals, I decided that I didn't want to die, either .

Oh. And the increased weight on cattle in Texas was also from an A&M lecture. Had a chart from the packers, I think. But I couldn't tell if it was because the packers had increased the amount of born-and-raised in feedlot cattle or the ranchers were increasing size, or both.

As far as financially viable, I think chasing size AND/OR grade is not advisable for the small producer in Texas. I think one should chase low inputs and some kind of diversification plan. Most old ranching families figured that out 30 years ago and that's why cow/calf are only a part of their income stream.

 

[elkwc]

How they're raised and where they're from really does matter for docility. My first PB Gelbvieh bull wasn't a socializer, but was very well behaved, the one I have now does like attention but he's always been really cool. Salers are well known for being 1 man cows (at best), and we certainly had our experiences with them being able to clear a 6 ft fence if they were cornered, but by the same token some of my peskiest pests also have the most Salers blood in them

Here are the boys at the ranch I get mine from, everyone wants to say hi
View attachment 24496

I can assure you how they were raised or handled isn't the issue. Found out that the Gelbveigh was a Simmental strain in Europe but rejected by the founders because of their temperament. And from what we saw they have done little too improve it even after many years. His genetics were from a prominent breeder. I know I'm not the only breeder who has experienced it. I'm sure there are exceptions but being it has been an issue for years is enough I won't likely try them again. It is evident docility isn't a concern for those in charge. I feel he set us back several years.

 

[rocfarm]

I can assure you how they were raised or handled isn't the issue. Found out that the Gelbveigh was a Simmental strain in Europe but rejected by the founders because of their temperament. And from what we saw they have done little too improve it even after many years. His genetics were from a prominent breeder. I know I'm not the only breeder who has experienced it. I'm sure there are exceptions but being it has been an issue for years is enough I won't likely try them again. I feel he set us back several years.

Well, temperament is largely genetic but can be moderated by environmental controls or mitigated by better handling techniques and facilitie. But that drives up costs. Thats why temperamental cattle always sell for a moderate to huge discount at auction. It costs more even to get them to slaughter.

 

[Nesikep]

I can assure you how they were raised or handled isn't the issue. Found out that the Gelbveigh was a Simmental strain in Europe but rejected by the founders because of their temperament. And from what we saw they have done little too improve it even after many years. His genetics were from a prominent breeder. I know I'm not the only breeder who has experienced it. I'm sure there are exceptions but being it has been an issue for years is enough I won't likely try them again. It is evident docility isn't a concern for those in charge. I feel he set us back several years.

Well, those in charge put docility EPD's, and hopefully that helps over time

 

[elkwc]

Well, temperament is largely genetic but can be moderated by environmental controls or mitigated by better handling techniques and facilitie. But that drives up costs. Thats why temperamental cattle always sell for a moderate to huge discount at auction. It costs more even to get them to slaughter.

Well, those in charge put docility EPD's, and hopefully that helps over time

 

[elkwc]

Nothing like shutting the barn door after the cow is out. We bought the bull in 14 I think when bulls were high and hard to find. Done some quick research and nothing came up. Only after we experienced issues did I have some breeders come forward and tell me it was a breed issue and has been for years. One said there is only a few bloodlines that offers good docility. There is no way determining how much the bad docility cost us. IMO this is a way more costly issue for the commercial breeder than the one cow you posted a video of with the breeder mentioned. I have never posted the breeder as I don't do that and also feel it is a breed issue. But will continue to alert those that are considering using Gelbveigh of the potential issues that have been in the breed for years.

 

[Nesikep]

Nothing like shutting the barn door after the cow is out. We bought the bull in 14 I think when bulls were high and hard to find. Done some quick research and nothing came up. Only after we experienced issues did I have some breeders come forward and tell me it was a breed issue and has been for years. One said there is only a few bloodlines that offers good docility. There is no way determining how much the bad docility cost us. IMO this is a way more costly issue for the commercial breeder than the one cow you posted a video of with the breeder mentioned. I have never posted the breeder as I don't do that and also feel it is a breed issue. But will continue to alert those that are considering using Gelbveigh of the potential issues that have been in the breed for years.

well, we certainly had different experiences with the breed.

 

[Travlr]

Nothing like shutting the barn door after the cow is out. We bought the bull in 14 I think when bulls were high and hard to find. Done some quick research and nothing came up. Only after we experienced issues did I have some breeders come forward and tell me it was a breed issue and has been for years. One said there is only a few bloodlines that offers good docility. There is no way determining how much the bad docility cost us. IMO this is a way more costly issue for the commercial breeder than the one cow you posted a video of with the breeder mentioned. I have never posted the breeder as I don't do that and also feel it is a breed issue. But will continue to alert those that are considering using Gelbveigh of the potential issues that have been in the breed for years.

It really comes down to due diligence in buying/raising/breeding your breeding stock. Selecting for docility is just like selecting for any other trait. Docility is one of the most heritable traits.

Telling my stories here on this forum I've mentioned I worked with Limousine and really liked them, and I've had lots of comments about how Limousine have a reputation for being less docile... and my experience was just the opposite. It came down to me buying docile animals and avoiding those that weren't. I've had more nutty Angus/Angus crosses than any other breed.

 

[Ky hills]

There are docility issues within every breed. For instance Herefords are known for their docile nature, however we had registered Hereford bull that would sire some calves that were as flighty and skittish as any other problematic cattle.
The most docile bull I've had was a Limousin, but I have had sone batsxxx crazy Limousin stocker calves.
The most aggressive bull I've had was a Simmental.
Have had more registered Angus bulls than any other breed, and have been very selective when purchasing to pick out what I thought were calm bulls. Sine if the worst cows I've had have been registered Angus.
I have a saying, I absolutely hate working Angus and Angus sired calves, and typically have a lot less problem working Hereford calves. Then on sale day it's the opposite, hate selling Herefords and like selling Angus much better.
I have said for years that the Angus breed has a major disposition problem and that EPD's are junk science in large part with the exception of birthweights.
The worst calves we have ever had temperment wise were by a bull touted for having breed leading docility numbers. I see it now after knowing what I have seen from some of the related cattle behind in his pedigree.
Most of the early continental cattle here did have some temperament problems but those breeds have done a lot towards improving that.
Aside from saying we have an EPD for that I don't think a lot of major Angus breeders have realistically addressed it.

 

[andybob]

Texas A&M lectures, I think on beef short course, but I didn't take down the source. But the professor, who also had been running his own operations and been involved in others plus research said, "The F1 Braford is the gold standard for quality of mother cows in southern Texas." I found a little breeding table in another publication that showed Bos Indicus (Brahman) and Bos taurus were farthest apart genetically, and within the bos taurus the Hereford was more genetically distinct from many of the other breeds. So I figured the logic was if you get a huge amount of hybrid vigor from the F1 Braford and then add a different set of genes in the form of angus or charolais, then you really get some stout, fast-growing calves. Not to mention the cross fits the climate so no weather stress…

Braford heifers seem to always sell at a premium. Seen the best quality Golden certified brafords go for$3000 or more IN GROUPS 5 and over, pen after pen.

If I could handle them and wasn't so poor starting out, I'd be interested in raising heifers for that market. But I think one loses on the steer side, so would have to research it.

And when I looked at a few videos of guys trying to handle 10 or more Brafords in corrals, I decided that I didn't want to die, either .

Oh. And the increased weight on cattle in Texas was also from an A&M lecture. Had a chart from the packers, I think. But I couldn't tell if it was because the packers had increased the amount of born-and-raised in feedlot cattle or the ranchers were increasing size, or both.

As far as financially viable, I think chasing size AND/OR grade is not advisable for the small producer in Texas. I think one should chase low inputs and some kind of diversification plan. Most old ranching families figured that out 30 years ago and that's why cow/calf are only a part of their income stream.

You can get the heat tolerance and heterosis by crossing Tuli or Mashona over the Hereford, and not have the handling issues, the F1 will be a little smaller than the Brahman cross, but the fertility will be higher, so should about balance out in production/acre.

 

[andybob]

There is plenty of potential there , if someone is willing to think outside the box.
I totally agree, but have been fortunate to have sold my profitable "unimproved" cattle through the conventional markets with no price discrimination. My 5 1/2 years in the USA was really too short a period to have had enough experience in the salebarns etc, as I had only built up to 25 pairs before I had to leave, most of my sales were breeding stock, and the few slaughter stock were sold as boxed beef, but using the unconventional breeds certainly pays when there is a market for them.

 

[bird dog]

Bering Pacific Ranches. I think I saw it listed for $16 million or so 8 k head, no fences to fix, slaughter facilities and comes with your own helicopter to check cows in and scare the crap out of your wife. Great retirement project.

Nice place. Cool pictures on this listing.

Bering Pacific Ranches for Sale in Unalaska, AK - Aleutians West Census Area | Farm & Ranch

Property at Unalaska, Alaska, Unalaska, AK, 99685 is 500,000 acres listed for sale in Aleutians West Census Area, Alaska: $16,500,000

farmandranch.com

 

[bird dog]

Braford heifers seem to always sell at a premium. Seen the best quality Golden certified brafords go for$3000 or more IN GROUPS 5 and over, pen after pen.

There are some around at much more reasonable prices if you get away from those special sales. https://www.jjcattleco.com/catalog/380

 

[rocfarm]

You can get the heat tolerance and heterosis by crossing Tuli or Mashona over the Hereford, and not have the handling issues, the F1 will be a little smaller than the Brahman cross, but the fertility will be higher, so should about balance out in production/acre.

Maybe, but I am trying to market for the feedyards. Need angus genetics in there and probably a terminal calf with a frame score of about 5.5 or 6.

My plans seem to change often, but ju current plan is to retain some heifer calves off my mostly red angus bull, wait til all my calves are at least on their second calf, then get a larger framed angus for a few calf crops. If I don't end up buying more mature replacement cows when I finally start selling calf crops, I'll probably rotate between larger and smaller bulls every few years to take it easy on any retained heifers.

But already had to change plans a few times. Wouldn't be surprised if I had to do so again based on something coming up.

Don't plan on spending over $2000 on a bull over the next 3 to four years, though. And if my current cheap bull throws good calves, I might just market those and buy some bred cows to increase my herd size rather than growing my own replacements. But I like watching heifers grow, too, so we'll see. The first two heifers I've let develop on the farm should be calving around October next year. How they do will dictate in large part whether I change course or not.

Got a mostly red angus on them, so hopefully smaller calves. But he looks big boned, so we'll see.

 

[rocfarm]

There are some around at much more reasonable prices if you get away from those special sales. https://www.jjcattleco.com/catalog/380

I looked at J&J and cattle range a lot. But l'm really trying to make things pencil out. So starting out I also have a lot of equipment that I haven't bought yet.

I borrow my friend's trailer for hauling or just pay to have my cattle delivered from somewhere closer, and traveling over 4 hours round trip to pick up a bull I am pretty sure I don't know how to judge yet seems like a way to get in the hole financially.

And, my current sense is, usually on those internet deals it's someone who knows a lot about something looking to sell to someone who knows a lot less less about that same something (in my case how to pick a bull, and I don't think those transactions usually go the newbies' way.

I liked buying my cows at the auction because if I paid a touch above what the slaughter guys were paying I figured that I could break even (or lose less money at the very least) if I just added weight to the cows and didn't kill them with poor care. Also, I felt like buying during the major drought was giving me more of a buyer's market. So far it's worked out because there are two calves and a few older heifers that are thriving and the four young cows weigh about 1 BCS more than when I paid for them. Got about 6500 lbs of beef out there for the $5000 or so that I paid-including the bull-and have a chance at 6 new calves from about an 8500lb herd next October and 7 calves from an expanded herd the fall after that if nothing goes sideways, so going with the slow growth, compound interest model here.


My model for bulls will be to purchase bulls at auction that are young and grow them a bit. Have a chance to later sell them for what I paid and an older herd sire is not needed for 10 cows, anyway.

If the first two times work out, I might try to buy a 5-year-old nicer bull off of someone in the future.

I also tried to offer a few months grazing in the spring to someone else's 10 or so cattle should we have wet spring conditions (my place can easily stock 20 head during those times). I figured trading extra grass for a genetic upgrade of the herd could be a good deal in exchange for a nicer bull being lent for 60 days in the fall, but no one seemed to want to take that deal. I think asking might have been a newbie mistake for some reason, but haven't yet figured out why that was a stupid deal to offer someone.

Appreciate the suggestion, though!

 

[Rmc]

My first thing would be to figure out best way for existing herd to make a profit.then if that is to sell to feed lots great if not oh well.
To me deciding to sell to feed lot then figure out way to make it "pencil out" Is backwards. Almost every other product produced. The business plan is how to I make the most profit for what I have. Not how can a sell this product to this buyer and hope to make a profit.
As I have said before my priority is to make a profit . Don't care if those purchasing my cattle make a profit or not. That is their business plan to figure out. If buyers want my calves weaned for 60 days and vaccinated, then pay me enough to make it worth my while or it's not happening.

 

[rocfarm]

My first thing would be to figure out best way for existing herd to make a profit.then if that is to sell to feed lots great if not oh well.
To me deciding to sell to feed lot then figure out way to make it "pencil out" Is backwards. Almost every other product produced. The business plan is how to I make the most profit for what I have. Not how can a sell this product to this buyer and hope to make a profit.
As I have said before my priority is to make a profit . Don't care if those purchasing my cattle make a profit or not. That is their business plan to figure out. If buyers want my calves weaned for 60 days and vaccinated, then pay me enough to make it worth my while or it's not happening.

A bit too hardcore IMO, but can understand how American culture may have always been mainly this way. In spite of some of the things we were sold as younger folks from the podiums of democracy, it seems that-especially the higher up the education/income chain one goes-the more pure self interest seems to guide decision making. It took me a while, but I think I can now accept this is how things will usually be.

But for me, it's still about trying to have goodwill towards my land, animals, buyers, and the final consumer, and make a profit. In short, I'd like to see everyone sustainably benefit. Still struggling to bring this mindset to my day job as well.

To some this may seem counterintuitive (especially in the chaotic modernity/massification paradigm of today's America), but so far it's worked for my wife and I to have this worldview. Have to admit it's been tough since the pandemic chaos came, though.

But hopeful things will work out. Thanks again for the opinions and blessings on y'all's cattle decisions-including the Pharo folks! May they prove us naysayers wrong should it be what the future needs.

 

[mwj]

Produce a saleable product or plan on eating it.I never had much luck telling a customer what to buy.

 

[Rmc]

A bit too hardcore IMO, but can understand how American culture may have always been mainly this way. In spite of some of the things we were sold as younger folks from the podiums of democracy, it seems that-especially the higher up the education/income chain one goes-the more pure self interest seems to guide decision making. It took me a while, but I think I can now accept this is how things will usually be.

But for me, it's still about trying to have goodwill towards my land, animals, buyers, and the final consumer, and make a profit. In short, I'd like to see everyone sustainably benefit. Still struggling to bring this mindset to my day job as well.

So what do you want us to do all join hands and sing kombia?
Ask Venezuela and every other socialist/communist country how that is going or has gone. Theory and applied real world very rarely match .
So I am expected to take a loss so some multinational corporations can get all the profits? Don't think so.
Ranching is way to much work for me to do it so I can loose money and the way of life I enjoy to not expect to turn a profit.

 

[Rmc]

Produce a saleable product or plan on eating it.I never had much luck telling a customer what to buy.

Have you ever thought about maybe looking for another customer?
What's the difference between old worthless junk and a piece of highly sought after antique?
Many times nothing but a persons point of view.
Kind of like the sign in an antique store.
"I buy junk and sell antiques "