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BayerFooted
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I know I couldn't. Heck, it seems pretty tough to differentiate some critters of different breeds now.
Noob to Angus cattle and EPDs
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BayerFooted
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I feel like I need to address this post. I need to make it clear that the majority of our cows are not tipping over dead at 4 years old after becoming walking skeletons. I lost the three this year that I explained one thing each had in common, severely chilled at birth. Reviewing records I kept from cows inherited there interestingly were some kept by my FIL that had frostbite ears that seemed to have suffered this same Fate in 2012 and 2013. I lost a 2015 born last year for an unknown reason. Everything else that is moved into my "gone to greener pastures" file has been culled due to open, calf death, or bad attitude or bag defect. I have a few that have died from accidents (lightening, one got stuck in the mud, and a few roll overs) and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person who's suffered streaks of bad luck?
I know I stated that "I have had this happen more than I care to count", of course if it happens once that's more than I care to have happen. Bigger numbers of opens have followed poor weather years (bad droughts). I have records of this.
I have 207 cows now after taking those three out of the book. 16% of my herd is 9 years and older, 34% are 7-8yo, 16% 5-6yo, 16% 3-4yo and I have 35 1150# first calf heifers to calve out. In 2013 and last year we kept more than normal the amount of heifers to grow and will be doing a heavy cull again in the fall. Typically we only keep 20-25 replacements.
Average weight in my herd is ~1350-1400, about 35 of them are 1500-1600lbs and they were exposed to bulls with BW in mid 90's. Equally saying I probably have 35-40 that are around 1200lbs.
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BayerFooted
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And before someone jumps my math I wasn't adding the decimals on percentages.
Peace
Well-known member
Your honesty is much appreciated, not too many people would actually post that info. Also, one thing I have noticed on here is there are some posters that are very direct, but don't take it personally, they don't know you, you asked and they're actually trying to help.
@BayerFooted, my all time fave cow was a solid 2100 lbs. and Steamroller (came by her name honestly) clocked in at 2300 heavy bred. But that fat girl calved like clockwork!! Both cows spit out & subsequently raised huge calves, no problem. I've reduced my average herd size to 1300-1500 lbs. but still have a couple that tip the scales at 1800. I've become immune to the "big cow shaming"
. What works for my operation clearly is not doable (or profitable) for another.
The cows you lost that were severely chilled at birth: did they also have pneumonia? Sometimes, cattle that appear to have a full recovery are actually "lungers".
And a side note about magnets you mentioned previously. All my cows, bulls & retained heifers have one because I've had my share of hardware. And yet, I've still lost some. "Hardware" is subjective: it can be also be caused by essentially any sharp object they ingest, such as a shard of glass, honey locust thorn, sharp rock, plastic pieces, etc. Cattle are indiscriminate eaters.
. What works for my operation clearly is not doable (or profitable) for another.The cows you lost that were severely chilled at birth: did they also have pneumonia? Sometimes, cattle that appear to have a full recovery are actually "lungers".
And a side note about magnets you mentioned previously. All my cows, bulls & retained heifers have one because I've had my share of hardware. And yet, I've still lost some. "Hardware" is subjective: it can be also be caused by essentially any sharp object they ingest, such as a shard of glass, honey locust thorn, sharp rock, plastic pieces, etc. Cattle are indiscriminate eaters.
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BayerFooted
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Steamroller!!!@BayerFooted, my all time fave cow was a solid 2100 lbs. and Steamroller (came by her name honestly) clocked in at 2300 heavy bred. But that fat girl calved like clockwork!! Both cows spit out & subsequently raised huge calves, no problem. I've reduced my average herd size to 1300-1500 lbs. but still have a couple that tip the scales at 1800. I've become immune to the "big cow shaming"
The cows you lost that were severely chilled at birth: did they also have pneumonia? Sometimes, cattle that appear to have a full recovery are actually "lungers".
And a side note about magnets you mentioned previously. All my cows, bulls & retained heifers have one because I've had my share of hardware. And yet, I've still lost some. "Hardware" is subjective: it can be also be caused by essentially any sharp object they ingest, such as a shard of glass, honey locust thorn, sharp rock, plastic pieces, etc. Cattle are indiscriminate eaters.
You have no idea how big I smiled reading about your voluptuous ladies. I LOVE big rolly poley cows, and horses (I have a Belgian cross) and dogs (Rottweilers). I realize it's unrealistic to have a herd of 1700 pound cows though haha! I just looked at the three I lost who started life as calfcicles, and I don't have anything written in saying they showed symptoms but treated them proactively with Zactran to thwart any onset. They we're also delayed receiving colostrum and if they were chilled, they may have burned through their brown fat really fast as well. Maybe it set them up for poor immunity.
This thread actually helped me pull out the WHOLE records and going through, it's fascinating (not in a positive manner) how many of the cows my FIL had that we obtained had short ears from 2007 and met the same fates in 2012 and 2013. Most of those cows from that year had short ears, and of those that did all but one were gone by 2015. If they didn't die, they were sold open. The remaining one was a staple to our herd we allowed to let die here from old age and we just lost her yesterday. Bittersweet, but Stubs gave us 9 calves I have recorded. And 3 we kept, unfortunately one committed suicide by roll over. Also, long toes were mentioned with those cows born in 2007.
I agree with the magnets, it's cheap insurance but not all that's hardware is metal. Amazing what cows will eat, sometimes they're just plain stupid. LOL! All replacement heifers and bulls get them. The one cow I lost last year for an unknown reason was actually treated for hoof rot the previous summer. I still have her mother, she's going strong. Sort of strange looking at these notes in the history. I'm kinda scratching my head a bit.
I rambled, sorry. I have a gift of making short stories long.
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BayerFooted
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What did you switch to? What kind of cows do/did you have? What made you decide to find new siring breed?
Nkline
Well-known member
Yes it is possible to keep maternal traits and bulk up your calves. This is how you do it.Those $3-4k bulls are the ones I get. They're lower milk numbers, and have unbraggable YW and WW ratios. Have been wondering if I should have been looking to increase those numbers. I have bull records of everything I have purchased if anyone is curious. Probably moot.
I've been to several cattleman's seminars put on by our local vet, or the university and I always seem to end up more confused because everyone seems to explain something a little different. Especially when trying to discern those pesky EPD numbers and I'm sort of seeing that here.
To simplify what I have stated before:
Is it possible to maintain maternal traits (and specifically what ones should I be emphasizing on) and bulking up the calves I wean and background without becoming terminal?
I used to use an analogy with cows that the ones that seem to grow fast like a pine tree seem to be the ones that Peter out and nose dive the fastest, and the cows that grow slow like an oak tree seem to last better but takes them longer to start bringing a top end calf to the scale. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that thinking.
Maybe I'm over thinking all of this too much.
1. Select bulls from sires with 0.5 or lower dmi or if they are tested themselves try to keep them under 0.5, preferably 0 or less when used on heifers. Select for higher WW and YW while maintaining the low dmi. Look at your heifers as calves the ones that have a little fat by there tail heads as calves will make the easier fleshing cows( barring excessive milk output).
2. Try to best guess milk on bulls you are buying and udders, you may have to do some talking to figure this out, and bulls may not produce what is expected. If they don't you need to get rid of them.
3. Maintain 6.7 frame score YH epd around 0.8 should do this, feedlot buyers will be very interested in this size of animal. Packers have been slaughtering a lot of overly fat short animals, because feedlots want to make 1500lb+ fats. Frame score is highly correlated with growth, at one time the Angus association said it was more highly correlated than there growth epds (they have just hid that info now).
4. On selecting bulls to make heifers some commonly overlooked phenotypical traits include; heart girth/depth (more heart girth/depth will make much better looking cows plus it influences the size of the chuck having a large impact on carcass size), hip length (for obvious reasons, but it is seemingly overlooked), joint angles (overly straight front shoulders and hocks are too common), toes are worth a look too (ask if the feet have been trimmed).
You are in a very "hot" region for the purebred Angus industry, I wouldn't be afraid to travel if you need to to find a bull in a comfortable price range. AI does give people the ability to improve or screw up their herd at record speed. There are many overlooked bulls that will work better in a non-creep program than many top sellers.
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BayerFooted
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This is incredibly interesting, thank you so much for this.
wbvs58
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I am an advocate for higher milk than has been put forward on the proviso that 1st calvers go back in calf. I think milk goes hand in hand with WW. You just can't get good weaning weights without sufficient milk. I do like pushing the limits though, see how far I can go.
Ken
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Peace
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Thanks, this is very interesting. I've never paid attention to dmi, could you explain how it would help or it's effects better than "dry intake after weaning", which is basically what the explanation is by AAA. Thanks again.
EPD's aren't of any value if you don't have a plan beyond them, actually you should have your plan laid out before you worry about EPD's.
At least make sure and pick you out a masculine bull.
I could find myself straying to the Red Angus cattle much easier then I could see going to the black Angus.
At least make sure and pick you out a masculine bull.
I could find myself straying to the Red Angus cattle much easier then I could see going to the black Angus.
Nkline
Well-known member
It is the best estimation of feed intake available, when you couple dmi with selection for growth you basically make cattle that gain on less feed. I don't think calves have a switch, and that after they are weaned they eat a proportionately different amount (high intake calves before weaning are likely the high intake calves after weaning). Calves that eat more demand more milk, and this is harder on heifers which are trying to grow while feeding a calf that's why I try to keep the dmi epds low on first calves. Calves that eat more are likely hungrier, it's not all about capacity to eat more.
It is necessary to combine low dmi with fleshing ability, heifer calf fleshing ability has been found to be a good predictor of cow fleshing ease. You need to select for both because you don't just want a bunch of thin cows that don't eat much. Cow fleshing ability is going help with cow intake once your cattle reach there mature size, we know that a cow at bcs 6 (body condition score) have a significantly lower feed requirement than bcs 5. When cows are mature some study's have said that calf dmi correlates to cow dmi at this point. Different cows eat massively different amounts, and if we can select for this then a lot of progress will be made. There is an old formula that is pushed by the small cow crowd, but it is theoretical, and variance within cows rule it obsolete if selection pressure is used.
Peace
Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense to me now. It's interesting that many of those lower dmi bulls also tend to higher hp and cem, maybe just coincedence, but it seems to me that is the case. The other things you pointed out in your earlier post made a lot of sense, I just couldn't wrap my mind around the low dmi. Thanks again
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BayerFooted
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This information has been superb! I appreciate these details, appears others do too! Thank you, thank you thank you!!!
Peace
Well-known member
Ok, so it's slow for me know and I went to the sales site and AAA's pedigree/EPD site and found some, not a whole lot but some bulls that fit these parameters. Granted I don't get to see them in person, but I can find them with the .5 or less DMI, with a +.8 range YH. Is there such a thing as too much YH? I've found plenty in the .4 to .8 range, and a couple in the 1.0 to 1.1 range, anything I should avoid?
It seems to me that when I find those bulls, a pretty good percentage of them have a WW in the 50 to 60 range and YW in the 85 to 110 range. That's fine, to me it would be just fine if the buyers are paying more for them at the same weight they are vs the same they're paying now for 100lb heavier feeders. If you're putting less feed in them and they look better to the buyer, it would kind of make sense that they would pay more, or am I way off base here?
Another thing I've noticed is the HP and CEM tend to be very good, in most cases. Is that usual or just a coincidence that I'm noticing? Also, the CE and BW tends to be all over the map, but that isn't too much of a concern at this point, or is it?
Lastly, I have found a few that have a DMI in the .55 to .62 range that have some other things going on that I like, maternals, CED, higher WW and YW and good YH. Is that ok or just stay away?
Thanks again, I cannot thank you enough....I'm actually getting into digging around for these bulls. Many of them come from stunner, prime cut, sirloins, consensus, southern charm, stimulous, maverick and a few others...are there any of those that should be avoided? thanks again
Nkline
Well-known member
I wouldn't worry about getting too high on YH epd as long as your MH isn't getting much above .8, once you get over 7 frame with cows you get a lot more stifle injuries.
A 700 lb steer is going to bring more per pound than an 800 lb steer all things being equal. But, we're not talking 100 lbs, if you aren't pushing creep you may wean more weight with the low dmi calves. If you are pushing creep a 100 lb WW epd vs. 50 lb WW epd is 50 lbs.
I wouldn't be concerned with ced or bw on mature cows if you haven't been having problems. As long as you select for cem to some extent you shouldn't have problems. I don't think cem is going to correlate, but hp might (it has seemed to for me).
I wouldn't be scared if you are a little over .5, but would aim for that on average over time. My current bulls range from .67 to -1.36.
I don't know enough to speak on most of those bulls. Consensus was quite popular and throws a lot of fat, so yield grades can suffer if you retain ownership.
Peace
Well-known member
Thank you, the info is great.
Not really having calving issues, but are you saying your HP has gone up or maybe improved. Not having issues, but don't want to run into them either.
Thanks for all the info you've provided...it's been really helpful.
Sorry for the delay in follow-up to my previous post. Been a busy few days breaking ice lol
Here's some thoughts I have on everything.
1. EPD's give you genotype. Yes you can derive some aspects of phenotype from looking at EPD's but you need to go and see them and really look through bulls in person to get the phenotype you want in addition to the genotype. There's plenty of bulls with near identical EPD's to mine that I wouldn't consider buying because their phenotype doesn't match what I need.
2. EPD's are absolutely useless unless you have a clearly defined goal for your herd. I love recordkeeping too...but records are useless unless you have clearly defined milestones to compare them to.
3. I highly recommend having 2 things in writing:
- A business plan that includes marketing, profit goals, input goals, etc and how you plan on getting there.
-A ranch/herd management plan that clearly states how you are managing your forage, rotation, plans for drought years, hay inputs, mineral program (you should do a forage analysis on your grass to find out where you stand so you aren't wasting money where you don't need it), vaccine program, etc. Then you need to have a clearly defined goals for your herd. I'm not talking chasing WW and YW. In a cow calf operation, your concentration first and foremost is on your cows and bulls. Yes you want good calves...but you don't get good calves by chasing WW and YW and ignoring the cows...especially if you are breeding your own replacements. More on that to follow.
4. I know a lot of people that were calving last week, and I just shook my head as they talked about frostbite and lost calves. It's more work, you have a lot more losses, and it is far harder on your cows.
I live in a similar environment to you, except I have less rain and less forage. I would STRONGLY recommend moving your calving season to late April/early May. There are several huge benefits to your herd, profit, and your time.
-You will be calving on better forage in a time your cows need it the most. Your cows will be in better condition going into calving, and they will gain back condition a lot quicker....which leads to better fertility and rebreeding rates...they can meet and exceed their nutritional requirements, which means the calves are getting more too...oh and the calves will be grazing better quality forage as they grow, and they will grow quicker...it's a domino effect of good things.
-Your death/loss rate will be reduced drastically. You don't have to worry about frostbite, you don't have to worry about bringing them in, warming up hypothermic calves...or any of the other myriad of issues that calving in cold weather brings.
-I calve in May and sell in December. I wean my calves for 45 days. They don't get creep or grain, but I do feed hay when I start weaning them in November. They typically average 600lbs at sale time.
-The market is usually better in December because it isn't as flooded with supply. This year with COVID and the drought it was significantly higher in December. You can always sell on superior or something similar to get a larger audience, or look into selling private treaty.
5. Your cows need to fit your environment. One of the top metrics you should be tracking is fleshing and feed efficiency. A cow with a +15 milk EPD is more profitable in my environment than a cow with a +25. Why? Because a cow has to be able to meet her own nutritional needs and milk production before she starts gaining back condition...in higher rainfall areas of the US that's easy. In a lot of others, it isn't. That's one of many reasons cows fall apart at an earlier age. They get worn through trying to gain back condition, breed back...and do it again. An easy fleshing, moderate milk production cow is going to have more longevity and fertility, because she isn't constantly being stressed by trying to maintain condition. She's also going to have better QUALITY milk because her body has more to give to it.
I've posted this before, and I'll post it again here. My favorite cow that I keep every single heifer out of (I have multiple generations of her offspring), is 17 years old this year. She is 1150 lbs. She is the first to calve. The first to breed back. She gets fat just looking at grass. After calving she looks better than most cows do before. She weans a 600lb calf consistently. She has moderate milk production. She is incredibly forage efficient and smart, excellent disposition, and a great mother. So are all of her offspring. If I had concentrated on WW, YW, and Milk, I would have destroyed the attributes that make her such a good cow.
Below are some of my requirements for cows. They do not get a second chance if they fail any of the following:
-Must be able to maintain and gain condition on my crappy, cold drought stricken forage with very little supplementation (they never get grain a day in their life, and get cheap hay all winter, with some oat hay thrown in during extra cold weather and snowstorms)
-Must calve with zero assistance, zero issues, and have a healthy calf with plenty of vigor.
-Must breed back in the first cycle for cows, second cycle for heifers.
-Replacements must have good udders, and the right phenotype.
-Fly resistance, and disease resistant. For the most part, if I have to doctor a cow, with some exceptions, she is gone. But because I have culled for this, I can't remember the last time I've had to doctor anything.
Traits that are must have:
-Disposition
-Easy Fleshing
-Good maternal...She should be protective of her calf against predators and fit into the herd (they should take turns watching calves while others are grazing, protecting them, etc). They should be a herd...loner cows are gone. I should be able to go out and give shots/tag a newborn calf, walk out, pin it down, and have her look at me with concern but zero signs of aggression towards me. My 6 year old can push them through the working pens and load them out.
-Efficient
-Good Udders
-Longevity
-Hair/Coat
-Fly/Disease resistant
-Calve with zero assistance/issues
-Weight. Nothing above 1400, ever. Preferably closer to 1200.
-I'm sure I'm forgetting some
100% of my cows bred back this year. Ages from 1 year to 17 years old. I have a 99% plus fertility and breed back rate in my herd consistently every single year, as do other I know who use similar genetics and programs to mine.
