BayerFooted
Active member
I know I couldn't. Heck, it seems pretty tough to differentiate some critters of different breeds now.Challenge any cattleman to pick out which cows have papers.
I know I couldn't. Heck, it seems pretty tough to differentiate some critters of different breeds now.Challenge any cattleman to pick out which cows have papers.
I feel like I need to address this post. I need to make it clear that the majority of our cows are not tipping over dead at 4 years old after becoming walking skeletons. I lost the three this year that I explained one thing each had in common, severely chilled at birth. Reviewing records I kept from cows inherited there interestingly were some kept by my FIL that had frostbite ears that seemed to have suffered this same Fate in 2012 and 2013. I lost a 2015 born last year for an unknown reason. Everything else that is moved into my "gone to greener pastures" file has been culled due to open, calf death, or bad attitude or bag defect. I have a few that have died from accidents (lightening, one got stuck in the mud, and a few roll overs) and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person who's suffered streaks of bad luck?I might want to add that longevity is a strong desire eithy me. My Walt Disney upbringing gets me attached to these ladies and the longer I can keep them, they can breed back on time and raise a decent calf (not a goat) for me the better. Seems there is a snag in the herd where we either get a few good years out of the critter then either she skips settling with a calf, she suddenly loses body score and dies or needs to be culled. I've had that happen too many times I care to count with 4-8 year old cows.
Or we have a handful of rockstars that are 12+ years old (oldest still retained in herd is 15) and still marching on strong. These ladies are of course obvious cows to keep their heifers IF they have them.
Occasionally I get bad feet or bags, they go bye bye.
Steamroller!!!@BayerFooted, my all time fave cow was a solid 2100 lbs. and Steamroller (came by her name honestly) clocked in at 2300 heavy bred. But that fat girl calved like clockwork!! Both cows spit out & subsequently raised huge calves, no problem. I've reduced my average herd size to 1300-1500 lbs. but still have a couple that tip the scales at 1800. I've become immune to the "big cow shaming". What works for my operation clearly is not doable (or profitable) for another.
The cows you lost that were severely chilled at birth: did they also have pneumonia? Sometimes, cattle that appear to have a full recovery are actually "lungers".
And a side note about magnets you mentioned previously. All my cows, bulls & retained heifers have one because I've had my share of hardware. And yet, I've still lost some. "Hardware" is subjective: it can be also be caused by essentially any sharp object they ingest, such as a shard of glass, honey locust thorn, sharp rock, plastic pieces, etc. Cattle are indiscriminate eaters.
What did you switch to? What kind of cows do/did you have? What made you decide to find new siring breed?One of The best and most profitable things I ever did was quit using angus bulls.
Those $3-4k bulls are the ones I get. They're lower milk numbers, and have unbraggable YW and WW ratios. Have been wondering if I should have been looking to increase those numbers. I have bull records of everything I have purchased if anyone is curious. Probably moot.
I've been to several cattleman's seminars put on by our local vet, or the university and I always seem to end up more confused because everyone seems to explain something a little different. Especially when trying to discern those pesky EPD numbers and I'm sort of seeing that here.
To simplify what I have stated before:
Is it possible to maintain maternal traits (and specifically what ones should I be emphasizing on) and bulking up the calves I wean and background without becoming terminal?
I used to use an analogy with cows that the ones that seem to grow fast like a pine tree seem to be the ones that Peter out and nose dive the fastest, and the cows that grow slow like an oak tree
Yes it is possible to keep maternal traits and bulk up your calves. This is how you do it.Those $3-4k bulls are the ones I get. They're lower milk numbers, and have unbraggable YW and WW ratios. Have been wondering if I should have been looking to increase those numbers. I have bull records of everything I have purchased if anyone is curious. Probably moot.
I've been to several cattleman's seminars put on by our local vet, or the university and I always seem to end up more confused because everyone seems to explain something a little different. Especially when trying to discern those pesky EPD numbers and I'm sort of seeing that here.
To simplify what I have stated before:
Is it possible to maintain maternal traits (and specifically what ones should I be emphasizing on) and bulking up the calves I wean and background without becoming terminal?
I used to use an analogy with cows that the ones that seem to grow fast like a pine tree seem to be the ones that Peter out and nose dive the fastest, and the cows that grow slow like an oak tree seem to last better but takes them longer to start bringing a top end calf to the scale. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that thinking.
Maybe I'm over thinking all of this too much.![]()
This is incredibly interesting, thank you so much for this.Yes it is possible to keep maternal traits and bulk up your calves. This is how you do it.
1. Select bulls from sires with 0.5 or lower dmi or if they are tested themselves try to keep them under 0.5, preferably 0 or less when used on heifers. Select for higher WW and YW while maintaining the low dmi. Look at your heifers as calves the ones that have a little fat by there tail heads as calves will make the easier fleshing cows( barring excessive milk output).
2. Try to best guess milk on bulls you are buying and udders, you may have to do some talking to figure this out, and bulls may not produce what is expected. If they don't you need to get rid of them.
3. Maintain 6.7 frame score YH epd around 0.8 should do this, feedlot buyers will be very interested in this size of animal. Packers have been slaughtering a lot of overly fat short animals, because feedlots want to make 1500lb+ fats. Frame score is highly correlated with growth, at one time the Angus association said it was more highly correlated than there growth epds (they have just hid that info now).
4. On selecting bulls to make heifers some commonly overlooked phenotypical traits include; heart girth/depth (more heart girth/depth will make much better looking cows plus it influences the size of the chuck having a large impact on carcass size), hip length (for obvious reasons, but it is seemingly overlooked), joint angles (overly straight front shoulders and hocks are too common), toes are worth a look too (ask if the feet have been trimmed).
You are in a very "hot" region for the purebred Angus industry, I wouldn't be afraid to travel if you need to to find a bull in a comfortable price range. AI does give people the ability to improve or screw up their herd at record speed. There are many overlooked bulls that will work better in a non-creep program than many top sellers.
Yes it is possible to keep maternal traits and bulk up your calves. This is how you do it.
1. Select bulls from sires with 0.5 or lower dmi or if they are tested themselves try to keep them under 0.5, preferably 0 or less when used on heifers. Select for higher WW and YW while maintaining the low dmi. Look at your heifers as calves the ones that have a little fat by there tail heads as calves will make the easier fleshing cows( barring excessive milk output).
2. Try to best guess milk on bulls you are buying and udders, you may have to do some talking to figure this out, and bulls may not produce what is expected. If they don't you need to get rid of them.
3. Maintain 6.7 frame score YH epd around 0.8 should do this, feedlot buyers will be very interested in this size of animal. Packers have been slaughtering a lot of overly fat short animals, because feedlots want to make 1500lb+ fats. Frame score is highly correlated with growth, at one time the Angus association said it was more highly correlated than there growth epds (they have just hid that info now).
4. On selecting bulls to make heifers some commonly overlooked phenotypical traits include; heart girth/depth (more heart girth/depth will make much better looking cows plus it influences the size of the chuck having a large impact on carcass size), hip length (for obvious reasons, but it is seemingly overlooked), joint angles (overly straight front shoulders and hocks are too common), toes are worth a look too (ask if the feet have been trimmed).
You are in a very "hot" region for the purebred Angus industry, I wouldn't be afraid to travel if you need to to find a bull in a comfortable price range. AI does give people the ability to improve or screw up their herd at record speed. There are many overlooked bulls that will work better in a non-creep program than many top sellers.
It is the best estimation of feed intake available, when you couple dmi with selection for growth you basically make cattle that gain on less feed. I don't think calves have a switch, and that after they are weaned they eat a proportionately different amount (high intake calves before weaning are likely the high intake calves after weaning). Calves that eat more demand more milk, and this is harder on heifers which are trying to grow while feeding a calf that's why I try to keep the dmi epds low on first calves. Calves that eat more are likely hungrier, it's not all about capacity to eat more.Thanks, this is very interesting. I've never paid attention to dmi, could you explain how it would help or it's effects better than "dry intake after weaning", which is basically what the explanation is by AAA. Thanks again.
It is the best estimation of feed intake available, when you couple dmi with selection for growth you basically make cattle that gain on less feed. I don't think calves have a switch, and that after they are weaned they eat a proportionately different amount (high intake calves before weaning are likely the high intake calves after weaning). Calves that eat more demand more milk, and this is harder on heifers which are trying to grow while feeding a calf that's why I try to keep the dmi epds low on first calves. Calves that eat more are likely hungrier, it's not all about capacity to eat more.
It is necessary to combine low dmi with fleshing ability, heifer calf fleshing ability has been found to be a good predictor of cow fleshing ease. You need to select for both because you don't just want a bunch of thin cows that don't eat much. Cow fleshing ability is going help with cow intake once your cattle reach there mature size, we know that a cow at bcs 6 (body condition score) have a significantly lower feed requirement than bcs 5. When cows are mature some study's have said that calf dmi correlates to cow dmi at this point. Different cows eat massively different amounts, and if we can select for this then a lot of progress will be made. There is an old formula that is pushed by the small cow crowd, but it is theoretical, and variance within cows rule it obsolete if selection pressure is used.
This information has been superb! I appreciate these details, appears others do too! Thank you, thank you thank you!!!It is the best estimation of feed intake available, when you couple dmi with selection for growth you basically make cattle that gain on less feed. I don't think calves have a switch, and that after they are weaned they eat a proportionately different amount (high intake calves before weaning are likely the high intake calves after weaning). Calves that eat more demand more milk, and this is harder on heifers which are trying to grow while feeding a calf that's why I try to keep the dmi epds low on first calves. Calves that eat more are likely hungrier, it's not all about capacity to eat more.
It is necessary to combine low dmi with fleshing ability, heifer calf fleshing ability has been found to be a good predictor of cow fleshing ease. You need to select for both because you don't just want a bunch of thin cows that don't eat much. Cow fleshing ability is going help with cow intake once your cattle reach there mature size, we know that a cow at bcs 6 (body condition score) have a significantly lower feed requirement than bcs 5. When cows are mature some study's have said that calf dmi correlates to cow dmi at this point. Different cows eat massively different amounts, and if we can select for this then a lot of progress will be made. There is an old formula that is pushed by the small cow crowd, but it is theoretical, and variance within cows rule it obsolete if selection pressure is used.
Yes it is possible to keep maternal traits and bulk up your calves. This is how you do it.
1. Select bulls from sires with 0.5 or lower dmi or if they are tested themselves try to keep them under 0.5, preferably 0 or less when used on heifers. Select for higher WW and YW while maintaining the low dmi. Look at your heifers as calves the ones that have a little fat by there tail heads as calves will make the easier fleshing cows( barring excessive milk output).
2. Try to best guess milk on bulls you are buying and udders, you may have to do some talking to figure this out, and bulls may not produce what is expected. If they don't you need to get rid of them.
3. Maintain 6.7 frame score YH epd around 0.8 should do this, feedlot buyers will be very interested in this size of animal. Packers have been slaughtering a lot of overly fat short animals, because feedlots want to make 1500lb+ fats. Frame score is highly correlated with growth, at one time the Angus association said it was more highly correlated than there growth epds (they have just hid that info now).
4. On selecting bulls to make heifers some commonly overlooked phenotypical traits include; heart girth/depth (more heart girth/depth will make much better looking cows plus it influences the size of the chuck having a large impact on carcass size), hip length (for obvious reasons, but it is seemingly overlooked), joint angles (overly straight front shoulders and hocks are too common), toes are worth a look too (ask if the feet have been trimmed).
You are in a very "hot" region for the purebred Angus industry, I wouldn't be afraid to travel if you need to to find a bull in a comfortable price range. AI does give people the ability to improve or screw up their herd at record speed. There are many overlooked bulls that will work better in a non-creep program than many top sellers.
Ok, so it's slow for me know and I went to the sales site and AAA's pedigree/EPD site and found some, not a whole lot but some bulls that fit these parameters. Granted I don't get to see them in person, but I can find them with the .5 or less DMI, with a +.8 range YH. Is there such a thing as too much YH? I've found plenty in the .4 to .8 range, and a couple in the 1.0 to 1.1 range, anything I should avoid?
It seems to me that when I find those bulls, a pretty good percentage of them have a WW in the 50 to 60 range and YW in the 85 to 110 range. That's fine, to me it would be just fine if the buyers are paying more for them at the same weight they are vs the same they're paying now for 100lb heavier feeders. If you're putting less feed in them and they look better to the buyer, it would kind of make sense that they would pay more, or am I way off base here?
Another thing I've noticed is the HP and CEM tend to be very good, in most cases. Is that usual or just a coincidence that I'm noticing? Also, the CE and BW tends to be all over the map, but that isn't too much of a concern at this point, or is it?
Lastly, I have found a few that have a DMI in the .55 to .62 range that have some other things going on that I like, maternals, CED, higher WW and YW and good YH. Is that ok or just stay away?
Thanks again, I cannot thank you enough....I'm actually getting into digging around for these bulls. Many of them come from stunner, prime cut, sirloins, consensus, southern charm, stimulous, maverick and a few others...are there any of those that should be avoided? thanks again
I wouldn't worry about getting too high on YH epd as long as your MH isn't getting much above .8, once you get over 7 frame with cows you get a lot more stifle injuries.
A 700 lb steer is going to bring more per pound than an 800 lb steer all things being equal. But, we're not talking 100 lbs, if you aren't pushing creep you may wean more weight with the low dmi calves. If you are pushing creep a 100 lb WW epd vs. 50 lb WW epd is 50 lbs.
I wouldn't be concerned with ced or bw on mature cows if you haven't been having problems. As long as you select for cem to some extent you shouldn't have problems. I don't think cem is going to correlate, but hp might (it has seemed to for me).
I wouldn't be scared if you are a little over .5, but would aim for that on average over time. My current bulls range from .67 to -1.36.
I don't know enough to speak on most of those bulls. Consensus was quite popular and throws a lot of fat, so yield grades can suffer if you retain ownership.
Sorry for the delay in follow-up to my previous post. Been a busy few days breaking ice lolI feel like I need to address this post. I need to make it clear that the majority of our cows are not tipping over dead at 4 years old after becoming walking skeletons. I lost the three this year that I explained one thing each had in common, severely chilled at birth. Reviewing records I kept from cows inherited there interestingly were some kept by my FIL that had frostbite ears that seemed to have suffered this same Fate in 2012 and 2013. I lost a 2015 born last year for an unknown reason. Everything else that is moved into my "gone to greener pastures" file has been culled due to open, calf death, or bad attitude or bag defect. I have a few that have died from accidents (lightening, one got stuck in the mud, and a few roll overs) and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person who's suffered streaks of bad luck?
I know I stated that "I have had this happen more than I care to count", of course if it happens once that's more than I care to have happen. Bigger numbers of opens have followed poor weather years (bad droughts). I have records of this.
I have 207 cows now after taking those three out of the book. 16% of my herd is 9 years and older, 34% are 7-8yo, 16% 5-6yo, 16% 3-4yo and I have 35 1150# first calf heifers to calve out. In 2013 and last year we kept more than normal the amount of heifers to grow and will be doing a heavy cull again in the fall. Typically we only keep 20-25 replacements.
Average weight in my herd is ~1350-1400, about 35 of them are 1500-1600lbs and they were exposed to bulls with BW in mid 90's. Equally saying I probably have 35-40 that are around 1200lbs.