Looking for suggestions on calves

[Mark Reynolds]

Let us know what the plan is. (We will help you by holding you accountable).

 

[blackladies]

Testing is good if you want to go that route. HOWEVER, have a plan (write it down) as to what you are going to do if 25%, 50%, 75% of the heifers are positive. Sell all at once, Sell over a couple years, keep and breed to negative bull and sell all progeny or test progeny and keep negatives/sell positives. In other words, testing isn't going to do you any good if you don't respond in some fashion to the test results.

Doesn't bother me to sell them all if i can find good replacements. The market is high right now both ways. Could sell everything I have and start over with just one bull and 5 cows. Have an odd assortment right now of animals but 28 head total.

 

[Brute 23]

My buddy ended up with some cows that had bvd. He had bought them off a friend of his. When he called them and asked them about it they were like... ya, it doesn't surprise me. We have so many cows come through here its bound to happen.

... and that's why I'm super picky about what comes in to the herd.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Doesn't bother me to sell them all if i can find good replacements. The market is high right now both ways. Could sell everything I have and start over with just one bull and 5 cows. Have an odd assortment right now of animals but 28 head total.

Have a plan. Don't just react.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

If you test, test sensibly. In other words, test only animals you are considering to keep.

 

[blackladies]

Let us know what the plan is. (We will help you by holding you accountable).

Lol

 

[wbvs58]

You send that kind of genetic anomaly out into the general population... it's irresponsible.

Keeping genetic carriers of bad mutations and breeding them is not a good thing to do.

I can guarantee you have bred from cows that are carriers of genetic mutations Travlr, by your own admission on other threads as well as this one you bought older cows with unknown genetic history and you are an advocate of buying unregistered bulls. Did you have any of these tested for recessive defects and guarantee them free? How many have you sent to the butchers because they were carriers of genetic defects? The fact is that these recessive defects are out there in all breeds, your defence if you are worried about it is to use registered bulls that are free by pedigree or by testing. Angus is a breed that has been proactive about managing it and have a very good system in place.

Ken

 

[Warren Allison]

Doesn't bother me to sell them all if i can find good replacements. The market is high right now both ways. Could sell everything I have and start over with just one bull and 5 cows. Have an odd assortment right now of animals but 28 head total.

Now that sounds like a plan! You can put quite a nice chunk of change in your pocket selling 28 head! Put $5k of it in your bull fund, then go to buying cows whenever you find a good one you want. As the fall progresses and winter comes on. you will see a lot of good cattle sold. Cool thing about buying pairs, is you can see what kind of calf she is raising. You see a nice looking black cow with a red calf, you know she is heterazygous black, but don't matter, because you gonna buy a homozygous for polled and black bull. You see a good Hereford or Braford cow, get her, She will have good black calves by your new bull. Some good looking black and/or bwf Simms come through...you won't know if they are homo for black und polled or not, but it won't matter. Your bull will be both. Buy more than 5, if you have the money left out of selling the 28 head and putting $5k back for the bull. Probably a LOT left. But whenever you get the cows you want, then get the best reg bull you can find. And there are several Angus, Simm, and Brangus breeders on here that will have one or will help you find one. You did all right with your first bunch of "cheap sale barn cows", and a grade bull. But you are smart not to keep pushing your luck. Another year or so, people will be asking you for advice!

 

[Warren Allison]

I can guarantee you have bred from cows that are carriers of genetic mutations Travlr, by your own admission on other threads as well as this one you bought older cows with unknown genetic history and you are an advocate of buying unregistered bulls. Did you have any of these tested for recessive defects and guarantee them free? How many have you sent to the butchers because they were carriers of genetic defects? The fact is that these recessive defects are out there in all breeds, your defence if you are worried about it is to use registered bulls that are free by pedigree or by testing. Angus is a breed that has been proactive about managing it and have a very good system in place.

Ken

Amen, wbvs58. I think he and RMC are two that said defects could be dominant too. Of course, no they can't. or every animal would have them. And you are 100% correct about the BEST defense is a registered bull. I have mentioned a few times on here, breeders sho are crossing 2 breeds of registered cattle, that there is no registry for (like the guy crossing Chi-Ang with Black Simm, and another crossing Black Hereford with Brangus, etc....) selling their heifers with a copy of both parent's papers. Most on here poo-poo]ed the idae, said it didn;t add value and was a waste of time. Well, this issue with recessive defects is one example of exactly why this is a great idea.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Amen, wbvs58. I think he and RMC are two that said defects could be dominant too. Of course, no they can't. or every animal would have them. And you are 100% correct about the BEST defense is a registered bull. I have mentioned a few times on here, breeders sho are crossing 2 breeds of registered cattle, that there is no registry for (like the guy crossing Chi-Ang with Black Simm, and another crossing Black Hereford with Brangus, etc....) selling their heifers with a copy of both parent's papers. Most on here poo-poo]ed the idae, said it didn;t add value and was a waste of time. Well, this issue with recessive defects is one example of exactly why this is a great idea.

@Warren Allison, as I'm sure you know, but didn't mention it, you end up with 'hybrid vigor' with the crossed bull. Maximum hybrid vigor is obtained in a 3-way cross. So, crossing one of these hybrid bulls with a dam of a 3rd breed.......you maximize the hybrid vigor in the resulting calf. Weather or not you have added value in a cross I suppose depends on the objectives of the end producer. But, in my book, its one of the best things you can do.

 

[Travlr]

I can guarantee you have bred from cows that are carriers of genetic mutations Travlr, by your own admission on other threads as well as this one you bought older cows with unknown genetic history and you are an advocate of buying unregistered bulls. Did you have any of these tested for recessive defects and guarantee them free? How many have you sent to the butchers because they were carriers of genetic defects? The fact is that these recessive defects are out there in all breeds, your defence if you are worried about it is to use registered bulls that are free by pedigree or by testing. Angus is a breed that has been proactive about managing it and have a very good system in place.

Ken

Yes, Angus have been proactive after covering up a huge problem for enough time to knowingly pollute a lot of herds and cause a substantial financial hardship to a lot of people using registered livestock.

And of course we have all had animals with genetic anomalies because all mammals have them. You and me too. But to promote the breeding of known carriers is something I've never done.

I had someone tell me that failing to control predators was irresponsible because they don't respect boundaries and will travel to neighbors, spreading the problem instead of ending it. This is the same kind of thing.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison, as I'm sure you know, but didn't mention it, you end up with 'hybrid vigor' with the crossed bull. Maximum hybrid vigor is obtained in a 3-way cross. So, crossing one of these hybrid bulls with a dam of a 3rd breed.......you maximize the hybrid vigor in the resulting calf. Weather or not you have added value in a cross I suppose depends on the objectives of the end producer. But, in my book, its one of the best things you can do.

Neither one of these will sell bulls. Any male calves are steered. However, here lately both have AI'ed with sexed semen, so this wasn't an issue. They both breed to raise replacement heifers. And yes, these are meant to be bred to a 3rd breed bull for a terminal cross..... heifers as well as bull calves. I was thinking in the case of the Chi-A x Black Simm breeder, that if there were a genetic defect in Chi-Angus, and Simmental, wouldn't it be great to have this info when considering one of these commercial heifers?

 

[Brute 23]

 

[wbvs58]

Yes, Angus have been proactive after covering up a huge problem for enough time to knowingly pollute a lot of herds and cause a substantial financial hardship to a lot of people using registered livestock.

And of course we have all had animals with genetic anomalies because all mammals have them. You and me too. But to promote the breeding of known carriers is something I've never done.

I had someone tell me that failing to control predators was irresponsible because they don't respect boundaries and will travel to neighbors, spreading the problem instead of ending it. This is the same kind of thing.

You didn't answer my question, you are preaching not breeding with carriers, how many have you tested to ensure you are not doing the "wrong" thing?

Ken

 

[Travlr]

You didn't answer my question, you are preaching not breeding with carriers, how many have you tested to ensure you are not doing the "wrong" thing?

Ken

I've never had a calf with five legs.

Why should I test? You are trying to catch me out in a non-existent quandary. Inventing a problem where there is none. Kind of like asking someone if they still beat their wife... when there is no evidence that they beat their wife. Implying that something is wrong when there is nothing wrong.

How many GAR Precision 1680 cows have you kept knowing they were carriers?

 

[Travlr]

he and RMC are two that said defects could be dominant too. Of course, no they can't. or every animal would have them.

Warren, Warren, Warren, Warren... (shaking head in embarrassment for you) Of course defects can be dominant. You might not recognize them because human beings breed for them. Something unnatural, detrimental, and undesirable in a natural, wild setting... but we find it advantageous for our own purposes. Polled cattle are a defect we find useful. The polled gene is dominant.

Do I need to explain why polled cattle, the defective dominant genetics, never resulted in a complete change in cattle?

And sometimes dominant defects occur in nature too. A dominant defect can result in extinction.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Warren, Warren, Warren, Warren... (shaking head in embarrassment for you) Of course defects can be dominant. You might not recognize them because human beings breed for them. Something unnatural, detrimental, and undesirable in a natural, wild setting... but we find it advantageous for our own purposes. Polled cattle are a defect we find useful. The polled gene is dominant.

Do I need to explain why polled cattle, the defective dominant genetics, never resulted in a complete change in cattle?

And sometimes dominant defects occur in nature too. A dominant defect can result in extinction.

Determination of if something is considered a defect or not can be a slippery slope. Yes, a defect can be dominant. Look at it this way. Someone could actually consider black color to be a defect, and yes, it is dominant (usually). I'm playing devil's advocate here, but the prospect is viable. The polled cattle example is a valid example as well.

 

[Warren Allison]

Determination of if something is considered a defect or not can be a slippery slope. Yes, a defect can be dominant. Look at it this way. Someone could actually consider black color to be a defect, and yes, it is dominant (usually). I'm playing devil's advocate here, but the prospect is viable. The polled cattle example is a valid example as well.

To some maybe, black and/or polled ae "defects". But being black or polled poses no health risks, or leads to disability or mortality. Inherited diseases, conditions, and abnormalities that are genetic, are all caused by recessive genes. If these were all dominant, there would be no cattle. That red and black color thing though is a good illustration. Black, BB is dominant over red bb. All red cattle are homozygous bb. Black cattle can be homo BB or hetera Bb.

Breed a BB to a Bb, and all calves will be black. 75% of them homo BB, and 25% hetera bb. ( red carriers)

Breed a Bb to a Bb, and 25% will be homo BB, black 50% will be hetera (red carriers) Bb black, and 25% will be bb red.

Breed a BB black to a bb red, and all calves will be hetera black, Bb.

Breed a Bb black to a bb red, and 50% wil l be Bb black, and 50% bb red.

So let's say bb represents a known genetic birth defect or disease, and you will understand why you shouldn't breed a carrier ( one copy of the b gene). And, you will see way that defect could only be tied to the recessive bb gene. If the defect were dominant,, ALL cattle, whether homo BB or hetera Bb, would have it. Only a calf from a cross between two hetrea Bb cattle, would stand a 25% chance of being normal.

This also illustrates why in breeding sons and daughters to mommas and daddies, is like playing Russian Roulette with 5 in the chamber. The exception would be, when using registered stock and all have been tested and certified to be non carriers.

 

[wbvs58]

I've never had a calf with five legs.

Why should I test? You are trying to catch me out in a non-existent quandary. Inventing a problem where there is none. Kind of like asking someone if they still beat their wife... when there is no evidence that they beat their wife. Implying that something is wrong when there is nothing wrong.

How many GAR Precision 1680 cows have you kept knowing they were carriers?

I have dealt with all the known genetic conditions in Angus right from the first one AM by testing and have very easily eliminated all carriers from my herd, no big deal really. Yes it was a big shock when the first one came up and I was still building my herd but I soon learnt how to deal with it through testing and move on with very little impact. You are burying your head in the sand thinking that you were squeaky clean with untested cows if you think it is the problem that you portray.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

I have dealt with all the known genetic conditions in Angus right from the first one AM by testing and have very easily eliminated all carriers from my herd, no big deal really. Yes it was a big shock when the first one came up and I was still building my herd but I soon learnt how to deal with it through testing and move on with very little impact. You are burying your head in the sand thinking that you were squeaky clean with untested cows if you think it is the problem that you portray.

Ken

You're making this into something that I've never said nor implied.

So let be be clear about what I DID say, paraphrased in so many words.

IF YOU KNOW YOU HAVE KNOWN GENETIC DEFECTS OR HAVE CALVES WITH GENETIC ANOMOLIES, THEN DON"T PASS THOSE PROBLEMS ON BY CONTINUING TO BREED DEFECTIVE ANIMALS. Do your due diligence and either identify the problem animals and end their breeding careers... or get rid of everything in a responsible way and move on.

In the case the OP has, he has no reason to think all of his cows are affected. The only animals involved in the defective calves were the bull and one cow. He already got rid of the cow. The cow is no longer in play. He can test the bull and if the bull tests clean he doesn't need to test all the heifers. As long as he has no heifers from the problem cow he can reasonably expect his herd to have an average probability of genetic abnormalities, so he's pretty safe. If the bull tests out as a carrier of something, then he should test the heifers or send them to slaughter. Every sale barn I've ever worked with (at least six in three states) will identify animals required to go to slaughter and those animals sell as well as anything else from my experience. Meat buyers are just as interested in healthy looking intended-for-slaughter animals as anything else.