Looking for suggestions on calves

[Travlr]

To some maybe, black and/or polled ae "defects". But being black or polled poses no health risks, or leads to disability or mortality. Inherited diseases, conditions, and abnormalities that are genetic, are all caused by recessive genes. If these were all dominant, there would be no cattle. That red and black color thing though is a good illustration. Black, BB is dominant over red bb. All red cattle are homozygous bb. Black cattle can be homo BB or hetera Bb.

Breed a BB to a Bb, and all calves will be black. 75% of them homo BB, and 25% hetera bb. ( red carriers)

Breed a Bb to a Bb, and 25% will be homo BB, black 50% will be hetera (red carriers) Bb black, and 25% will be bb red.

Breed a BB black to a bb red, and all calves will be hetera black, Bb.

Breed a Bb black to a bb red, and 50% wil l be Bb black, and 50% bb red.

So let's say bb represents a known genetic birth defect or disease, and you will understand why you shouldn't breed a carrier ( one copy of the b gene). And, you will see way that defect could only be tied to the recessive bb gene. If the defect were dominant,, ALL cattle, whether homo BB or hetera Bb, would have it. Only a calf from a cross between two hetrea Bb cattle, would stand a 25% chance of being normal.

This also illustrates why in breeding sons and daughters to mommas and daddies, is like playing Russian Roulette with 5 in the chamber. The exception would be, when using registered stock and all have been tested and certified to be non carriers.

LOL... nice dodge...

Duck and weave... duck and weave...

 

[Mark Reynolds]

My buddy ended up with some cows that had bvd. He had bought them off a friend of his. When he called them and asked them about it they were like... ya, it doesn't surprise me. We have so many cows come through here its bound to happen.

... and that's why I'm super picky about what comes in to the herd.

The BVD Virus in Cow/Calf Operations: Part 2- How do I Test for BVD Virus? | Ohio BEEF Cattle Letter

u.osu.edu

BVD article for those interested. Hot off the press.

 

[farmerjan]

@Travlr ... if something here is marked for slaughter only, such as a heifer with a genetic defect...it will get discounted BIG TIME... doesn't matter the reason... the buyers will be super extra LEERY of buying anything that is slaughter only... there are too many feeders etc inbetween the heifer being sold due to genetic recessive problems, and the actual slaughter house... have seen it several times over the years.
We have a different situation here with most animals being sold in smaller lots, getting comingled with others as they are shipped out to feeders/backgrounders, and then maybe going to feed lots and maybe going to places to breed and sell as bred heifers in groups. You might as well feed out and butcher the heifers rather than give them away at a stockyard.

You also have stated in other places about buying, raising, and selling animals as breds etc... did you test everyone of them for any/all genetic defects before passing them on?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@wbvs58 - Ken - traveler is correct in the fact that the A breeders hid the problem and spread the defects all over the US. It was a nightmare to begin with, but "true" breeders like you have handled the problem. But, I am afraid there are a LOT of commercial black cows out there that are carriers, and a lot of commercial black bulls not being tested.
Just let the newbies reading this to be aware of the risk of genetic defects. They run rampant in several "clubbie" breeds. They sell semen and list them as carriers. That blows my mind. But, they LOOK good!!!
This is why the ASA requires all cattle being upgraded from most breeds to be DNA tested. They will register them if positive but it is listed on their registration papers. I would prefer they were rejected, but I'm just me.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

@wbvs58 - Ken - traveler is correct in the fact that the A breeders hid the problem and spread the defects all over the US. It was a nightmare to begin with, but "true" breeders like you have handled the problem. But, I am afraid there are a LOT of commercial black cows out there that are carriers, and a lot of commercial black bulls not being tested.
Just let the newbies reading this to be aware of the risk of genetic defects. They run rampant in several "clubbie" breeds. They sell semen and list them as carriers. That blows my mind. But, they LOOK good!!!
This is why the ASA requires all cattle being upgraded from most breeds to be DNA tested. They will register them if positive but it is listed on their registration papers. I would prefer they were rejected, but I'm just me.

Interesting as apparently when registered as a positive the animals still get used for breeding. I suppose the question is do the producers getting/using these animals actually know what they are getting? i.e. are they genetics savy?

 

[Travlr]

I've mentioned to people that if others are interested in following a conversation they should be using the reply feature by clicking on reply at the bottom right side of the screen.

WHY? Because it will bring the post up to the top of their reply so people will know what they are replying to... as well as notifying the person they are replying to.

Easy peasy and it helps all of us as we follow a conversation.

And somehow now people are using the @whomever instead... which DOES NOT insert the post being replied to, so not nearly as useful.

It's such an easy habit to get into and becomes automatic if you will be considerate of those that would like to follow your conversation. PLEASE use the reply feature.

 

[wbvs58]

@wbvs58 - Ken - traveler is correct in the fact that the A breeders hid the problem and spread the defects all over the US. It was a nightmare to begin with, but "true" breeders like you have handled the problem. But, I am afraid there are a LOT of commercial black cows out there that are carriers, and a lot of commercial black bulls not being tested.
Just let the newbies reading this to be aware of the risk of genetic defects. They run rampant in several "clubbie" breeds. They sell semen and list them as carriers. That blows my mind. But, they LOOK good!!!
This is why the ASA requires all cattle being upgraded from most breeds to be DNA tested. They will register them if positive but it is listed on their registration papers. I would prefer they were rejected, but I'm just me.

Jeanne I disagree about things being hidden. You forget that the ability to detect genetic defects only came about when these were first investigated. In fact Angus asked Dr Jon Beever in the US to investigate these defects and to come up with a test for each one as they became apparent. The technology was not available much before then. These defects do not show up in large numbers, so it does take a while to realise there is any pattern. Abnormalities have occured in all breeds since eternity, I can show you examples of many abnormal anomalies in my old pathology textbooks and these have always been considered freaks of nature. It is only with modern DNA capability that more has been discovered about them. With the last defect DD a lot of the initial reporting was done by a local Land Services Veterinarian in a town just over the state border to me. Lisa and her husband are also Angus breeders. Lisa had collected samples from various calves she had been called to and it was her samples that were sent to Jon Beever who identified the problem then subsequently developed a test for it, all happened very promptly. The incidence of the defect was very low and even much lower than the recessive homozygus dd would have you expect.
I can understand why Simmental require DNA testing as you have introduced many other breeds to the breed however Angus have a closed herd book so there are no introductions. The genetic status of all registered Angus are there for all to see. When you say you test them what do you test for? There is no blanket test to test for all.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The BVD Virus in Cow/Calf Operations: Part 2- How do I Test for BVD Virus? | Ohio BEEF Cattle Letter

u.osu.edu

BVD article for those interested. Hot off the press.

Mark - this is why I BVD-PI test all my heifer and bull calves. So, every cow in my herd has been tested (as a calf). It's cheap and you only test once in their lifetime. The test is required to show cattle in NY.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ken, I don't know what is tested, I don't cross breed.
Well, I lied. I bred a cow to a Shorthorn bull, but bull was already tested neg. trying to get a blue roan heifer. I got a steer! I tried again.
IDK. There was a lot of unhappy Angus breeders because a farm had a very popular AI bull with defects showing up and did not pull semen or post any warnings. Money comes first.
Yes, Jon Beever was instrumental in all the defect findings.

 

[Ebenezer]

"In fact Angus asked Dr Jon Beever ...."

You need to learn a bit more. There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth to get AAA to move. It was more forced than 'let's jump on it". Too many elites had money to lose and had the reigns.

 

[simme]

Several years ago when the lethal genetic defects in US angus were recognized and tests were developed, I remember seeing many AAA breeders continue to sell carrier bulls in their yearly bull sales in those early days. Maybe adding AMC or NHC in the catalog or maybe not. But no notes on what those letters meant. I guess those calves were already in the pipeline when the issue was understood. Many/most buyers at those sales are commercial guys that might not be up to date immediately on those issues. They may not have even heard of them at that time.

I am just a tiny speck of the simmental industry. Probably closer to a multiplier than a breeder. But for me, I am not going to knowingly sell a defective animal to anyone unless I point out the issue and decide that the potential buyer understands the issue and the risk. I would feel guilty if I watched an animal go out the driveway with a hidden defect that I was aware of. If I have a cow that I don't think deserves to have another calf, I haul her to the auction, tell them to not sleeve her and send her to the pound pen. That is just my conclusion of what I need to do. Everyone else can decide for themselves.

I have never owned an angus. I have used some angus bulls on simmental cows. The genetic issue of PA in Charolais cattle and how the breed handled it (or maybe did not handle it) does not fit with my thinking either. Mutations can occur and may take a long time to surface and be understood. But once you pull the refrigerator away from the wall and see all the dust and filth, it is time to clean up and get rid of it instead of squinting the eyes and sliding it back in place and hope no one sees it. My opinion.

 

[Travlr]

Several years ago when the lethal genetic defects in US angus were recognized and tests were developed, I remember seeing many AAA breeders continue to sell carrier bulls in their yearly bull sales in those early days. Maybe adding AMC or NHC in the catalog or maybe not. But no notes on what those letters meant. I guess those calves were already in the pipeline when the issue was understood. Many/most buyers at those sales are commercial guys that might not be up to date immediately on those issues. They may not have even heard of them at that time.

I am just a tiny speck of the simmental industry. Probably closer to a multiplier than a breeder. But for me, I am not going to knowingly sell a defective animal to anyone unless I point out the issue and decide that the potential buyer understands the issue and the risk. I would feel guilty if I watched an animal go out the driveway with a hidden defect that I was aware of. If I have a cow that I don't think deserves to have another calf, I haul her to the auction, tell them to not sleeve her and send her to the pound pen. That is just my conclusion of what I need to do. Everyone else can decide for themselves.

I have never owned an angus. I have used some angus bulls on simmental cows. The genetic issue of PA in Charolais cattle and how the breed handled it (or maybe did not handle it) does not fit with my thinking either. Mutations can occur and may take a long time to surface and be understood. But once you pull the refrigerator away from the wall and see all the dust and filth, it is time to clean up and get rid of it instead of squinting the eyes and sliding it back in place and hope no one sees it. My opinion.

I'm on board with that 100%.

Known genetic defects are nothing to screw around with.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There is a genetic defect discovered just recently in the Simmental breed. The potential original sire was pinpointed, ASA is asking for any animals showing any sign of this defect to notify them immediately. It is called Hydrops Pregnancies. WS All Aboard B80 is the reported potential start of the defect.
I have an article in my July/Aug newsletter. I attached it, not sure if this works!!
But the point is, ASA is doing everything they can to nip this in the bud. They need to do more research and are asking for any possible Hydrops cows found.

 

[Travlr]

There is a genetic defect discovered just recently in the Simmental breed. The potential original sire was pinpointed, ASA is asking for any animals showing any sign of this defect to notify them immediately. It is called Hydrops Pregnancies. WS All Aboard B80 is the reported potential start of the defect.
I have an article in my July/Aug newsletter. I attached it, not sure if this works!!
But the point is, ASA is doing everything they can to nip this in the bud. They need to do more research and are asking for any possible Hydrops cows found.

Jeanne, do you know anything about the family tree of the bull in question, WS All Aboard B80? Is/was he line bred/inbred or is the defect thought to be a spontaneous mutation? Anything you might know would be appreciated.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It is totally explained what is known about it in the ASA article.
You don't have to read the whole newsletter ( although you might find it interesting). You can just click the pages to 16.
Hydrops [s a known "condition", but this appears to be a genetic defects ORIGINATING with this bull. ASA #2852207

 

[simme]

The simmental association held a zoom meeting for the membership to hear from the team investigating this new defect. They explained (as the article Jeanne posted states) that a small number of the daughters and granddaughters of this bull develop this condition of excessive fluid accumulation in the fetus and placenta in late pregnancy. These are daughters/granddaughters bred to some other bull. That seems to indicate that the "cause" is in those daughters/granddaughters carrying a calf. The interesting thing to me is that there are instances where a daughter of the bull is flushed to some random bull, the embryos are transferred to an unrelated recipient cow and that unrelated recipient cow ends up with the condition. That suggests that the "cause" was in the fetus. Of course, in both cases the fetus has genetics in varying degree from the suspect bull. I suspect that semen sales are the bull are down now.

The bull's 5 generation pedigree on the paternal side shows Hooks Shear Force 2 times, Dream On 1 time. Dream on and Shear Force are half sibs - both sired by Nichols Legacy.
The bull's 5 generation maternal pedigree shows Shear Force once, 600U twice. Go back a couple more generations and ER Big Sky, ER Americana and Hercules 538P appear on both sides of the pedigree. May be time for crossbreeding. Simmental allows that, but AAA does not.

 

[wbvs58]

Well, I'm not going to try to change peoples views on things different people have different views on things, some people don't like kids playing on the floor unless it has been sterilized, myself I like kids playing in the dirt, it helps build their immunity. Some people like to clear everything out when something like this happens I myself actually knowingly bought registered cows that had tested as carriers for AM and NH at commercial prices when this first came about. They were cows that I would never have been able to afford otherwise. I bred them and tested all progeny and did very well getting clean heifers from them which has formed the nucleus of my herd today. My herd very rapidly was all free as carriers of any of these known genetic defects. I actually profited from the situation.
As to the loss for the commercial cattleman it has been very minimal, nothing like the massive losses that Travlr would have you believe. My friend had a registered herd of around registered 300 cows and a commercial herd of over 500 cows, probably around 2000 when you include his sons. He was a very heavy user of Precision, 036 and Future Direction genetics, all calves in the stud herd were weighed at birth, he used his home bred bulls in his commercial herd as well as the stud herd for clean up. Over several years there was not any calf losses out of the ordinary, yes an occaisional mal formed calf but no more than you would expect, a freak of nature, certainly nothing to raise alarm bells. His calving %ages were always in the upper 90's very similar to what they are today.
People like to demonise Angus, I guess it is the tall poppy syndrome, even within the breed the smaller breeders become critical of those at the top of the game, personally I see them as very astute cattleman and are always very approachable. Jeanne and her Simmental cronies see this as a wonderfull marketing opportunity, Travlr still can't get over his dislike of the Angus organisation for their CAAB programme.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

I myself actually knowingly bought registered cows that had tested as carriers for AM and NH at commercial prices when this first came about. They were cows that I would never have been able to afford otherwise. I bred them and tested all progeny and did very well getting clean heifers from them which has formed the nucleus of my herd today. My herd very rapidly was all free as carriers of any of these known genetic defects. I actually profited from the situation.

If you made that work for you, I admire your willingness to accept the risk, do your due diligence, and to deal with any consequences. What did you do with the calves that tested positive?

Over several years there was not any calf losses out of the ordinary, yes an occaisional mal formed calf but no more than you would expect, a freak of nature, certainly nothing to raise alarm bells.

I don't know what you consider "out of the ordinary" concerning malformed calves... but I would consider one single malformed calf to be out of the ordinary.

Travlr still can't get over his dislike of the Angus organisation for their CAAB programme.

Ken

Yup, and with no apologies. In fact I'm kind of proud of being a cattleman that realizes what the downsides are and isn't afraid to voice the realities. Your tall poppies are a source of "heroin" (metaphor) in the beef industry... and they don't have to be.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

LOL - Ken - I totally agree with kids playing on dirty floors!! Exposure to everything is good.
And, I totally applaud and agree with the way you handled the genetic defects. You took advantage of a problem that was controllable. You and I understand what the problem was, and can reasonably see a good outcome. We have way too many commercial breeders that have absolutely no clue about genetics. YOUR breed association may also have handled it better than the AAA handled here. It was discussed in open public forums quite a while BEFORE AAA finally made a move to let the public know what was going on.. I don't know the "details" - just the reports from quality breeders, like yourself.

I said right up front that IF YOU KNEW what you were dealing with, it was not a problem. Make sure the sire is clean and test the offspring. You obviously picked some great carrier cows, because I sure like your breeding stock. Being a carrier, does not change their pedigree.

I may sound like I am "bashing" the Angus breed - but little do people know they have always BEEN my 2nd favorite breed. I still say the Simm/Angus is absolutely the best cross going and make the BEST commercial momma cows.
BUT, because I have always been so passionate about the qualtiy of Angus, I am soooo disappointed with what our breeders have done to the breed. You are not here, seeing the horrible "no ass", deer footed cattle they have been producing. I think enough people have been bashing them enough, that breeders are waking up and making changes. I'm not talking all breeders. We have some tremendous breeders that still believe in structure and easy keeping cows like me. My "badmouthing" is actually more DISAPPOINTMENT in what some influential breeders have done to the breed. Chasing numbers and not looking at cattle is a disaster. Marbling is antagonistic to muscle.

 

[Travlr]

LOL - Ken - I totally agree with kids playing on dirty floors!!

Yup, me too.

I may sound like I am "bashing" the Angus breed - but little do people know they have always BEEN my 2nd favorite breed.

Although I can't say they are my favorite breed... mainly because I don't have a favorite... there are and have been a lot of really great Angus cattle. The CAB thing is a different issue than the breed of cattle. The marketing scheme is the only thing that makes Angus suspect.