Looking for suggestions on calves

[blackladies]

Sounds like she may have been a DD carrier (duplicative development). Means the bull is a carrier too if the calf was affected. Was the extra leg off the spine?

It was about halfway down on the front leg, it was like the leg split at the knee and grew 2 from there with 2 hoofs.

 

[GoWyo]

It was about halfway down on the front leg, it was like the leg split at the knee and grew 2 from there with 2 hoofs.

Weird. Sounds more like a birth defect then. The cow had some problems and her highest and best use was hamburger. DD affected calves will have one or more legs coming out the spine. Some DD affected calves don't show anything, but on postmortem inspection do have issues at the spine. If you see DDP on registration papers it means the animal is a potential carrier that has not been tested.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Long story but I had a post awhile back when I brought calves to the sale barn and they didn't bring anywhere near what they should have brought. I realize they won't be the top but it was way less and I had taken the time to wean and vaccinate and the auctioneer didn't announce it even when the guy at drop off wrote all the info down. Went back later and talked to one of the guys involved with the sale barn and he said they should have announced it and if they don't stand up and say something or let him know before hand that I have some coming through and he will make sure. Was just trying to get some others thoughts on what direction to head. Didn't have the experience on that first group I bought from the sale barn. Bought several with foot problems. Thought by retaining my own heifers I would at least know what I'm starting with and how old they are.

Retaining your own heifers will get you there eventually, but you need to give yourself as big of a boost to begin with as you can. Starting with sale barn animals isn't the way to do it. Check @Jeanne - Simme Valley's post again.

 

[Brute 23]

Long story but I had a post awhile back when I brought calves to the sale barn and they didn't bring anywhere near what they should have brought. I realize they won't be the top but it was way less and I had taken the time to wean and vaccinate and the auctioneer didn't announce it even when the guy at drop off wrote all the info down. Went back later and talked to one of the guys involved with the sale barn and he said they should have announced it and if they don't stand up and say something or let him know before hand that I have some coming through and he will make sure. Was just trying to get some others thoughts on what direction to head. Didn't have the experience on that first group I bought from the sale barn. Bought several with foot problems. Thought by retaining my own heifers I would at least know what I'm starting with and how old they are.

I got ya. Thats dissapointing. Keeping heifers to breed up is a slow, expensive process. Its great when it goes good but it's twice as bad when it goes bad.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[Brute 23]

Long story but I had a post awhile back when I brought calves to the sale barn and they didn't bring anywhere near what they should have brought. I realize they won't be the top but it was way less and I had taken the time to wean and vaccinate and the auctioneer didn't announce it even when the guy at drop off wrote all the info down. Went back later and talked to one of the guys involved with the sale barn and he said they should have announced it and if they don't stand up and say something or let him know before hand that I have some coming through and he will make sure. Was just trying to get some others thoughts on what direction to head. Didn't have the experience on that first group I bought from the sale barn. Bought several with foot problems. Thought by retaining my own heifers I would at least know what I'm starting with and how old they are.

I got ya. Thats dissapointing. Keeping heifers to breed up is a slow, expensive process. Its great when it goes good but it's twice as bad when it goes bad.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I got ya. Thats dissapointing. Keeping heifers to breed up is a slow, expensive process. Its great when it goes good but it's twice as bad when it goes bad.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

This is why you get animals to breed with as much information as you can on them to start with, even if there is a bit of expense with it. You will more than likely be better off in the long run if you do.

 

[Travlr]

Long story but I had a post awhile back when I brought calves to the sale barn and they didn't bring anywhere near what they should have brought. I realize they won't be the top but it was way less and I had taken the time to wean and vaccinate and the auctioneer didn't announce it even when the guy at drop off wrote all the info down. Went back later and talked to one of the guys involved with the sale barn and he said they should have announced it and if they don't stand up and say something or let him know before hand that I have some coming through and he will make sure. Was just trying to get some others thoughts on what direction to head. Didn't have the experience on that first group I bought from the sale barn. Bought several with foot problems. Thought by retaining my own heifers I would at least know what I'm starting with and how old they are.

That's how most people start and usually have average success. So not an especially bad way to go. In your case you seem to have lost on the genetic lottery, especially if your bull is a carrier.

In any case, with something like that I'd get rid of the bull and any of its progeny. Sorry, but it is what it is. Sell them all and buy unrelated animals. The cows are less likely to be a problem as long as they are unrelated to either bull or the offending cow.

I had great success by finding out who was selling cows due to their age (usually 10) and I would raise replacement heifers from them, sometimes getting as many as three or four calves from the better cows. Cows with a track record of being fertile and raising good calves... or they would have been culled earlier. I asked around until I found out who had decent cows, culled for age, and I would buy them long bred, direct if I could or in big lots at the sale barn. Thirty or forty great ten year old cows will yield some great heifers with the right program, and the steers will sell as well as anything else depending on quality. As long as you have a good eye you should do fine.

Regardless, you need animals that raise healthy calves. A genetic defect showing up taints both the cow and the bull... and any of the calves from the bull.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

That's how most people start and usually have average success. So not an especially bad way to go. In your case you seem to have lost on the genetic lottery, especially if your bull is a carrier.

You've never answered the question about the extra leg, whether it came out at the spine.

In any case, with something like that I'd get rid of the bull and any of its progeny. Sorry, but it is what it is. Sell them all and buy unrelated animals. The cows are less likely to be a problem as long as they are unrelated to either bull or the offending cow.

I had great success by finding out who was selling cows due to their age (usually 10) and I would raise replacement heifers from them, sometimes getting as many as three or four calves from the better cows. I asked around until I found out who had decent cows, culled for age, and I would buy them direct if I could or in big lots at the sale barn. Thirty or forty great ten year old cows will yield some great heifers with the right program, and the steers will sell as well as anything else depending on quality. As long as you have a good eye you should do fine.

Regardless, you need animals that raise healthy calves. A genetic defect showing up taints both the cow and the bull... and any of the calves from the bull.

@blackladies did answer. We all miss things in posts. The extra leg was not from the spine, it was a 'split' at the ankle resulting in two feet on one leg, or something to that effect.

blackladies said:
It was about halfway down on the front leg, it was like the leg split at the knee and grew 2 from there with 2 hoofs.

 

[wbvs58]

If this is the case, I would sell the bull, the cow, AND ALL the progeny from either the cow or the bull that you have. You will be better off in the long run.

Doesn't matter how good the progeny are. I learned the hard way about this, kinda. I had a simulated herd in a computer program while I was working on my BS degree. I figured out after the third generation that one of my bulls had a 'genetic mistake' that was problematic so I got rid of him but kept his progeny because they had great phenotypic characteristics. On generation 5 or 6 I lost 5 calves out of 47 due to this genetic defect I thought wouldn't be a problem. 10% of the calf crop was a problem. It wasn't real life so my pocket book was fine, and so was my grade (not docked for the 'mistake' as my reasoning was sound) but I learned real quick genetics is kinda like playing with fire. If you don't respect it. it WILL burn you!

Why Mark? I don't follow your reasoning, all that needs to be replaced is the bull it is obvious that both the bull and that cow are DD carriers, if the bull was replaced with a registered Angus bull you can be assured that it will be free of DD by testing or by pedigree. The OP is looking at ways to improve his herd so a quality registered Angus bull would be a step in the right direction. The Beefmaster would be another alternative however by the looks of the dam the genetics might be a bit unknown there.
Getting a dink calf like that from salebarn cows of unknown origin my mind immediately goes to BVD, PI.

Ken

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Why Mark? I don't follow your reasoning, all that needs to be replaced is the bull it is obvious that both the bull and that cow are DD carriers, if the bull was replaced with a registered Angus bull you can be assured that it will be free of DD by testing or by pedigree. The OP is looking at ways to improve his herd so a quality registered Angus bull would be a step in the right direction. The Beefmaster would be another alternative however by the looks of the dam the genetics might be a bit unknown there.
Getting a dink calf like that from salebarn cows of unknown origin my mind immediately goes to BVD, PI.

Ken

If you know the bull is or conclude that he is a carrier, then potentially (50/50 chance) that each one of his offspring is a carrier. If you are retaining the offspring as breeding stock, then your breeding stock has a 50/50 chance of being a carrier. IF your breeding stock is a carrier and you mate it with a parent outside your herd of unknown genetic background and that parent happens to be a carrier (you don't know) you now have a recipe for a 25% chance of the calf produced from that pairing to be phenotypically defective, or dead. Do you want to take that chance? I did on a computer simulated project working on my Bachelor's degree from college 34 years ago. I still remember it. I ended up losing 5 of 47 calves to a resulting genetic defect. It didn't cost me monetarily then, but if I were to do that in real life, a loss of nearly 15% of my calf crop income, plus a year of cost feeding those now proven genetically defective cows (5 of them known, and an additional amount unknown if they are defective that didn't throw dead calves) would be financially devastating, even for a single calf season. Not worth the risk in my book.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Here is a Fact Sheet by AAA on the Angus DD defect:

https://www.angus.org/pub/DD/DDFactSheet.pdf#:~:text=This%20abnormality%20was%20recently%20found%20to%20be%20a,extra%20limb%20%28a%20condition%20referred%20to%20as%20polymelia%29.

If you purchase ANY Angus commercial or PB cattle (even crossbreds) you are taking the chance of several defects in the breed. Not bashing - just facts. AAA does not require a breeder to test anything. You can run a DNA test on your heifers (not sure, but don't think it's very costly - maybe $45???). Not saying ALL Angus cattle are of high risk - but, evidently there is a good population around you that are carriers. What is the chance you purchased two unrelated animals and both are carriers?
LOL - now are you ready to try black Simmental (required to be tested if Angus or Chianina or Shorthorn or Maine, etc) genetics are used to create the offspring in question.
LOL - I'm being a smartazz.
Back to your replacement heifers. If you would like to keep them, just test them. If they test clean, your good. If 1 or more test positive - you can ship or keep as long as you test the sire you plan to use.
In the Simmental breed, if an animal tests positive, you still have the right to register them, but the genetic defect is put on their registration papers.

 

[wbvs58]

If you know the bull is or conclude that he is a carrier, then potentially (50/50 chance) that each one of his offspring is a carrier. If you are retaining the offspring as breeding stock, then your breeding stock has a 50/50 chance of being a carrier. IF your breeding stock is a carrier and you mate it with a parent outside your herd of unknown genetic background and that parent happens to be a carrier (you don't know) you now have a recipe for a 25% chance of the calf produced from that pairing to be phenotypically defective, or dead. Do you want to take that chance? I did on a computer simulated project working on my Bachelor's degree from college 34 years ago. I still remember it. I ended up losing 5 of 47 calves to a resulting genetic defect. It didn't cost me monetarily then, but if I were to do that in real life, a loss of nearly 15% of my calf crop income, plus a year of cost feeding those now proven genetically defective cows (5 of them known, and an additional amount unknown if they are defective that didn't throw dead calves) would be financially devastating, even for a single calf season. Not worth the risk in my book.

Well Mark if you read what I said only the bull needs to be replaced with a registered Angus or a registered Simmental or any breed where there is some quality control so that you know the genetic status I think your 34 year old computer program needs a bit of an update.. The OP has done a good job so far starting a herd, yes a minor hiccup but he can move on from here. He wants to know how he can improve things and a good registered bull would be a good start, his user name is black ladies so I would continue on the black theme. When starting off a herd and buying commercial cows from various sources it is a gamble, commercial cows are not tested for recessive genes so he could sell the lot and start again for no overall gain. What he can do is use a registered bull. No one knows if the calf was DD and as GoWyo pointed out it probably wasn't DD. He can move on very well with what he has with confidence if he uses a registered Angus or Simmental bull. I would be more concerned with the likes of BVD, the cow that had the two calves could be persistently infected and hence produce calves that were PI's, that first one that wouldn't grow certainly sounds like a PI to me. BVD can also produce abnormalities.

Ken

 

[blackladies]

Really good thoughts and opinions, some of them differing but that is what I like about posting on here. People with more experience than me took time out of their day to write thoughtful responses. Will probably see what kind of money that black bull brings at the sale barn and one other older cow that isn't keeping her condition as well and see if I have enough to spend on a registered black bull. Not sure what breed yet. Still have those two Craigslist heifers that the guy said were speckled parks but I'm pretty sure that was a learning lesson for me. I think they are longhorns. They do look healthier now but I could either see what calf they throw next year or sell them now and add them to the pot for a new bull.

 

[blackladies]

Craigslist ad and then back at my place

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Cattle like that are so much fun to look at in the pasture. I love it when I get splashes of white on my Simmental cattle - but - I don't sell feeders at an auction. I have a buyer that doesn't care if my cattle are purple and polka dotted. He makes good money on my cattle and will buy anything I have.
And if I get a heifer with splashes of white (face, tail, legs, bellie - haven't gotten body splashes for many years) - they are higher in demand. My RED, white face heifers are in high demand (didn't used to be). But, if you have something ODD, wait, it may become just what the buyer is looking for!
But, in your case - you are looking for calves that will be top end of a sale barn. Speckle anything will not be. Craigslist - maybe!

 

[blackladies]

Cattle like that are so much fun to look at in the pasture. I love it when I get splashes of white on my Simmental cattle - but - I don't sell feeders at an auction. I have a buyer that doesn't care if my cattle are purple and polka dotted. He makes good money on my cattle and will buy anything I have.
And if I get a heifer with splashes of white (face, tail, legs, bellie - haven't gotten body splashes for many years) - they are higher in demand. My RED, white face heifers are in high demand (didn't used to be). But, if you have something ODD, wait, it may become just what the buyer is looking for!
But, in your case - you are looking for calves that will be top end of a sale barn. Speckle anything will not be. Craigslist - maybe!

Those were two I bought off of that Craigslist ad. Speckle parks have angus in them so I thought breeding to a black bull might throw a nice calf. The longer I have them though the more they look like longhorns.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Those were two I bought off of that Craigslist ad. Speckle parks have angus in them so I thought breeding to a black bull might throw a nice calf. The longer I have them though the more they look like longhorns.

I agree, I think they were a little creative with the breeding behind those heifers.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Cattle like that are so much fun to look at in the pasture. I love it when I get splashes of white on my Simmental cattle - but - I don't sell feeders at an auction. I have a buyer that doesn't care if my cattle are purple and polka dotted. He makes good money on my cattle and will buy anything I have.
And if I get a heifer with splashes of white (face, tail, legs, bellie - haven't gotten body splashes for many years) - they are higher in demand. My RED, white face heifers are in high demand (didn't used to be). But, if you have something ODD, wait, it may become just what the buyer is looking for!
But, in your case - you are looking for calves that will be top end of a sale barn. Speckle anything will not be. Craigslist - maybe!

Hey! I want a picture of your purple polka-dotted cattle!

 

[Travlr]

Back to your replacement heifers. If you would like to keep them, just test them. If they test clean, your good. If 1 or more test positive - you can ship or keep as long as you test the sire you plan to use.

It would be CRAZY to keep any heifers that test positive. The potential for the defect to be passed on and eventually get into the general population is always going to be a concern. I don't care if they are the prettiest heifer on the planet... they go to the feedlot. Anything else is irresponsible.

 

[Travlr]

Really good thoughts and opinions, some of them differing but that is what I like about posting on here. People with more experience than me took time out of their day to write thoughtful responses. Will probably see what kind of money that black bull brings at the sale barn and one other older cow that isn't keeping her condition as well and see if I have enough to spend on a registered black bull. Not sure what breed yet. Still have those two Craigslist heifers that the guy said were speckled parks but I'm pretty sure that was a learning lesson for me. I think they are longhorns. They do look healthier now but I could either see what calf they throw next year or sell them now and add them to the pot for a new bull.

One of the great things about the cattle business is that we can grow out of our mistakes if we recognize them and plan accordingly.

If your "speckled parks" throw white on their calves after being bred registered homozygous black Angus they are always going to throw chrome on their calves. One calf and they will still make good freezer beef and you don't have to take the hit at the sale barn.