Little Difference Between Breeds in Growth

[VanC]

Maybe it is me but where is the EPD for the mature size in either the Hereford or Angus Breeds. In the Hereford Performance pedigree there is a listing for mature frame size that is the actual measurement. Is this part of the mature size EPD estimate?

In the Angus the $EN is partly made up of a estimate of mature size but I don't know for sure whether that part is solely an EPD or has a factor of actual frame size measurement.

I think the angus folks call it YH but that isn;t mature size. And we all know that a 5 yealring can turn into a 7 mature and vice versa. Kind of depends on their growth patterns

Angus has mature weight and mature height EPDs. I got a few doubts about the accuracy of those numbers; but some data is better than no data.

http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx

Not particularly. If the data is inaccurate, incomplete, or misleading then it doesn't matter whether you have a little or a lot............it's worthless.

 

[knabe]

The enhancement of EPD's and verification of EPD Accuracies by the use of DNA-Marker Technology has "Leap-Frogged" Trait and Characteristic awareness through the expedient use of Molecular Value Predictions (MVP's). The tremendous scientific and accurate incorporation of these DNA Markers relating to Feed Efficiency, Marbling and Tenderness has opened a wide door to additional methods of providing reliable information for producers to utilize in making breeding decisions.


DOC HARRIS

didn't see in the article where this was used or reported. jerry taylor says in meetings the 50K chip is worthless across breeds.

my beef with the markers is people won't reveal homo or heterostate and which is better and what is the relative contribution and what their verified contribution in isolation or what the relative combinations tested were. you can ask them till you are blue in the face and they won't tell you squat. even data out that the orginal tenderness markers don't work across breeds. relatively little data on following markers through till slaughter with an independent test or any availability to test one's own cattle and test for shear force and do minimal verification of impact of markers.

data is not revealed on marker selection, particularly across breeds. just as sequencing the human genome was supposed to help cure disease, the promise of markers is not nigh.

relatively complete sequencing including sequencing of the mRNA's would be interesting in that one could get both alleles and the sequence of the mRNA and check for SNP's from both strands as the nucleic acid moves from genomic to protein. protein sequencing is still way to expensive. i used to be on this molecular bandwagon but not anymore.

pacific biosciences or similar company may change the landscape. too many things outside gene region is responsible for expression and may interfere with having a snp associated with a trait but it's regulation is not. it's pretty apparent, and obviously to the marker companies, these traits are multifactorial and are only beginning to understand how to deal with all the data necessary after the days of the easy low hanging fruit are over and mostly associated with single gene recessive defects.

 

[Herefords.US]

The enhancement of EPD's and verification of EPD Accuracies by the use of DNA-Marker Technology has "Leap-Frogged" Trait and Characteristic awareness through the expedient use of Molecular Value Predictions (MVP's). The tremendous scientific and accurate incorporation of these DNA Markers relating to Feed Efficiency, Marbling and Tenderness has opened a wide door to additional methods of providing reliable information for producers to utilize in making breeding decisions.


DOC HARRIS

didn't see in the article where this was used or reported. jerry taylor says in meetings the 50K chip is worthless across breeds.

my beef with the markers is people won't reveal homo or heterostate and which is better and what is the relative contribution and what their verified contribution in isolation or what the relative combinations tested were. you can ask them till you are blue in the face and they won't tell you squat. even data out that the orginal tenderness markers don't work across breeds. relatively little data on following markers through till slaughter with an independent test or any availability to test one's own cattle and test for shear force and do minimal verification of impact of markers.

data is not revealed on marker selection, particularly across breeds. just as sequencing the human genome was supposed to help cure disease, the promise of markers is not nigh.

relatively complete sequencing including sequencing of the mRNA's would be interesting in that one could get both alleles and the sequence of the mRNA and check for SNP's from both strands as the nucleic acid moves from genomic to protein. protein sequencing is still way to expensive. i used to be on this molecular bandwagon but not anymore.

pacific biosciences or similar company may change the landscape. too many things outside gene region is responsible for expression and may interfere with having a snp associated with a trait but it's regulation is not. it's pretty apparent, and obviously to the marker companies, these traits are multifactorial and are only beginning to understand how to deal with all the data necessary after the days of the easy low hanging fruit are over and mostly associated with single gene recessive defects.

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

George

 

[dun]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

George

About as certain as EPDs

 

[knabe]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

George

yes, but the rates they are charging don't correlate well with their utility, accuracy, especially across breeds which would effect commercial accuracy.

read/listen to some presentations by jerry taylor at univ missouri.

to me, a better investment would be a better ultrasound system and a home use shear force device.

i would like to see a study of ultrasound taken on a monthly basis through say 5 years on same animal and offspring and see data plotted. would like to see this for three calving groups, one in the fall, one in the spring and one continuous. would like to see each group with known markers of sire dam and offspring and measure carcass traits at the end on the rail and with shear force of every animal.

to this date, i haven't seen anything remotely like this. doesn't mean there isn't.

 

[vclavin]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

George

yes, but the rates they are charging don't correlate well with their utility, accuracy, especially across breeds which would effect commercial accuracy.

read/listen to some presentations by jerry taylor at univ missouri.

to me, a better investment would be a better ultrasound system and a home use shear force device.

i would like to see a study of ultrasound taken on a monthly basis through say 5 years on same animal and offspring and see data plotted. would like to see this for three calving groups, one in the fall, one in the spring and one continuous. would like to see each group with known markers of sire dam and offspring and measure carcass traits at the end on the rail and with shear force of every animal.

to this date, i haven't seen anything remotely like this. doesn't mean there isn't.

That would be very interesting to see! I've ultrasounded a few at yearling and then again with the next season of yearling ( we have spring and fall seasons) 2nd time around can surprise you, I've been told that even going thru the chute/process again on the same day or a day or 2 apart can be different.
DNA is expensive, I've done a few and not sure how to use it yet. Thinking of having several generations done for comparisons to EPD's and actual data. ( Some of the AI sires data shows up on my Angus assoc AIMS program)
Valerie

 

[whitecow]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

George

yes, but the rates they are charging don't correlate well with their utility, accuracy, especially across breeds which would effect commercial accuracy.

read/listen to some presentations by jerry taylor at univ missouri.

to me, a better investment would be a better ultrasound system and a home use shear force device.

i would like to see a study of ultrasound taken on a monthly basis through say 5 years on same animal and offspring and see data plotted. would like to see this for three calving groups, one in the fall, one in the spring and one continuous. would like to see each group with known markers of sire dam and offspring and measure carcass traits at the end on the rail and with shear force of every animal.

to this date, i haven't seen anything remotely like this. doesn't mean there isn't.

I have started something similar to this on a small scale. I am getting ultrasound scans every 2 months on my Charolais donors/potential donors/herdsires and all of my Wagyu/WagyuxChar. I will continue this on all of these breeding animals as well as the feeders. I don't think any of the commercially available markers have any usefulness for Charolais or Wagyu, but I have found ~30 potential markers in the literature for Wagyu. When I have some real carcass data, I will will check for correleations with the ultrasound/carcass data.

Interestingly, So far the ultrasound data seems to show what you would expect for the feeders. The REZ, IMF, BF increase at a predictable rate. This does not neccessarily hold true for the breeding animals. It may be my imagination (not enough data), but it looks like their IMF/BF seem to mimic their nutritional state.

 

[knabe]

It may be my imagination (not enough data), but it looks like their IMF/BF seem to mimic their nutritional state.

i wonder if there is a marker for that.

 

[cow pollinater]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

Speaking from the dairy side of the genetic business, we have found that a genomic evaluation is about equal to ten milking daughters... Not proven by any stretch of the imagination but leaps and bounds beyond simple parent average.

 

[whitecow]

I agree that there are a LOT of flaws in this technology early on! But don't you think they'll eventually work all that out and be able to determine the genetic potential of an animal with a great degree of certainty?

Speaking from the dairy side of the genetic business, we have found that a genomic evaluation is about equal to ten milking daughters... Not proven by any stretch of the imagination but leaps and bounds beyond simple parent average.

True. The dairy industry has a large amount of accurate phenotypic data to support the discovery/validation of markers. The beef industry has very little useful data.

 

[knabe]

Speaking from the dairy side of the genetic business, we have found that a genomic evaluation is about equal to ten milking daughters... Not proven by any stretch of the imagination but leaps and bounds beyond simple parent average.

True. The dairy industry has a large amount of accurate phenotypic data to support the discovery/validation of markers. The beef industry has very little useful data.[/quote]

holsteins are way more closely bred than beef and angus as well, almost all holsteins trace to a single bull. way easier to do genetic evaluations on a closely bred population.

it would be interesting to compare the number of snps of the holstein breed against any beef breed besides the relatively closely bred hereford that was used. of course the marker people already know this.

 

[vclavin]

whitecow wrote:
It may be my imagination (not enough data), but it looks like their IMF/BF seem to mimic their nutritional state.
I assume you are saying that better the nutrition the better the IMF and BF?
Valerie

 

[LFF]

Finally getting some good discussion and information instead of the endless rant against epd's. It is a long way from the original post but may be the original poster won't mind if something of value comes out during his trend.

 

[knabe]

it would also be useful to know if the different breeds were all black or retained their original color.

 

[Brandonm22]

it would also be useful to know if the different breeds were all black or retained their original color.

If we are using currently popular sire then the Lims, Sims, Salers, Maines, and Gelbviehs are probably mostly black........so according to some numbers I have seen quoted by some people.......they are ~10-17% Angus.

 

[cow pollinater]

holsteins are way more closely bred than beef and angus as well, almost all holsteins trace to a single bull. way easier to do genetic evaluations on a closely bred population.

There are two big bulls in the breed... but I'm nitpicking.
Actually, genomics should be a Godsend for breeds with more variable genetics since it looks at how the genetics of sire and dam actually were paired instead of an average of the sire and dam.
For example, if my mother and my father are second cousins, there is a good chance that I will look and act similar to quite a few of my siblings. The genetics are similar enough that a parent average should give fairly accurate results.
If my parents are both Dutch/Irish but from completely different bloodlines, it becomes more difficult for them to produce "peas in a pod". We would either have to map how the genes of mother and father have paired or wait for adult grand-kids to get a glimpse of child much less progeny of child. Since I am only slightly like the sister that is EPD-wise exactly the same as me, I have to believe there is more variation at work.
Enter genomics... We can look at how the sire and dam have paired genetically to produce a certain animal and get an early indication as to whether or not we have a strait-A student or a pot-smoking dropout.
To date, nothing beats progeny proven sires but early and somewhat accurate information sure helps.

 

[knabe]

There are two big bulls in the breed... but I'm nitpicking.

isn't it like 70% one bull 30% the other or something like that?

strengths and weaknesses to a closely bred population and a diverse one to finding markers.

for instance, if i was looking for marbling in beef cattle, i would be looking for holsteins (yes, i know they do) that don't marble as well as other breeds that don't marble (actually as many as possible that don't), put them in a pooled dna pile and compare against a diverse population that marbled (with relatively low backfat) as well as relatively unrelated closely bred groups that marble and compare against the pooled marbling pile. then tease each pile apart for each candidate markers.

this doesn't mean that other markers don't have an impact that are breed specific or respond to environment and are stored as methylation sites.

 

[Ryder]

I'm just sitting here copying the mail and want to say this is one of the most interesting, intelligent, and thought provoking threads I have seen in a long time. :clap: :clap:

 

[cattleman99]

it would also be useful to know if the different breeds were all black or retained their original color.

If we are using currently popular sire then the Lims, Sims, Salers, Maines, and Gelbviehs are probably mostly black........so according to some numbers I have seen quoted by some people.......they are ~10-17% Angus.

Not sure where you are getting your info but that % of Angus in Simmental is much smaller than 10-17%. Not sure what the American's do but in Canada you can't be purebred based on those numbers. There isn't a lot of crossbreeding going on either at the breeder level. There's some but it's pretty hard to find 1/2 or 3/4 bulls. American's register 7/8 Bulls as Purebreds and they have to be 15/16 in Canada to get purebred status. Also the Canadian herd is a lot less Black. I don't know I've ever seen the percentage breakdown but there are a lot less Black's than Red's and in certain parts of the country the Traditional Coloured is still very popular. Especially out East.

 

[Brandonm22]

it would also be useful to know if the different breeds were all black or retained their original color.

If we are using currently popular sire then the Lims, Sims, Salers, Maines, and Gelbviehs are probably mostly black........so according to some numbers I have seen quoted by some people.......they are ~10-17% Angus.

Not sure where you are getting your info but that % of Angus in Simmental is much smaller than 10-17%. Not sure what the American's do but in Canada you can't be purebred based on those numbers. There isn't a lot of crossbreeding going on either at the breeder level. There's some but it's pretty hard to find 1/2 or 3/4 bulls. American's register 7/8 Bulls as Purebreds and they have to be 15/16 in Canada to get purebred status. Also the Canadian herd is a lot less Black. I don't know I've ever seen the percentage breakdown but there are a lot less Black's than Red's and in certain parts of the country the Traditional Coloured is still very popular. Especially out East.

I apologize if I am not completely in tune with what is in vogue with the Simmental breed; but if you look at the US ABS lineup 37 are homozygous black, 9 are heterozygous black, and 9 are red but those 9 all look like red angus in their markings and don't look anything like traditional Simmentals. The 10-17% Angus estimate has been used a lot and I don't know if it can be backed up or not. Craig Huffhines has put it in print in the Hereford World. There is a real world assumption here (and that COULD be false) that a lot of those pedigrees where the red and white cattle suddenly become solid black cattle are not 100% accurate.