Debating Bull Breeds

[gcreekrch]

Black Hereford is a joke.
I still prefer horned Herefords over polled. Those F1 daughters are hard to beat. These are F1 angus dam horned Hereford sired hfrs. The calves are easy calving angus sired.View attachment 27523View attachment 27524View attachment 27525
They just don't get much better.

Beauties!

 

[ClinchValley86]

I am a big fan of SimAngus and Limflex cows. Simmental seems to milk better with my limited experience.

 

[Rafter S]

I agree that horned calves will get discounted at sale time, but assuming those cows are predominantly Angus then polled Hereford sired calves should still be polled. I used horned Hereford bulls on black Brangus cows for years and never had one with horns showing at weaning age (so I think I can safely assume they never go them).

I got very few red calves from that cross also.

That should have said horned Hereford sired calves, not polled.

I sure did!

I apologize. I didn't see yours.

 

[Brute 23]

Not sure if your liquid feed has mineral but be sure that you have salt and mineral out. Tubs with mineral will work also. Maybe consider some thing like multimin when you work cattle next.

Conception, calving, and overall health with depend heavily on the mineral.

Salt will also help with consumption of what you are feeding.

 

[Allenw]

I'm in western Arkansas. I need to go fill out my profile, I suppose.

Those pics were taken almost 6 months ago. Just sort of an idea on what they were. I have had terrible luck finding good hay. The previous ranch manager walked out (without telling anyone) with one round bale in the barn and 92 cows, in a drought. I've since cut the herd by half, fed liquid feed with low quality hay, and have managed to add condition over the winter. It started out looking like a cattle internment camp.

My experience with cattle is having three cows at a time, and their calves. We did take sick heifers and cows with mastitis from the organic dairies when we lived in Oregon, and we've all spent time with our neighbor working his cattle. He is also my backup when I feel like I'm in over my head.

My knowledge of genetics ends with rabbits, but I'm researching what I can. I've not heard too many people excited over black herefords. I've had a few baldies, and really like them. They seem to do very well at auction, too. Brangus is definitely an easier to find option around here.

My goal, at this point, is to retain heifers to replace some of my less thrifty, older cows with bad teeth and no sparkle in their eye. The ones that didn't fit the bill were sold. I still have some that I would like to get rid of, but that will have to wait until next year. I'll know my cows much better then, too.

As far as cross fencing, I have two pastures at the moment. My husband and I are trying to figure out our best bet for cross fencing. We have a big creek that dumps into the Fourche River in the middle if the property, so fencing options aren't the greatest (turns out, cows can swim ).

I think I've rambled out everything I can think of. Sorry 'bout that, but y'all asked. I sure appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. It gives me a lot of different things to read up on.

Stick to the basics, a middle of the road kind of animal for a bull or bulls. I like the idea of a Herford and an Angus bull in the pasture together.

Personally I would have culled all old cows and stunted animals in the first round, but I don't know what else you had to work with at the time.

 

[Warren Allison]

I'm in western Arkansas. I need to go fill out my profile, I suppose.

Those pics were taken almost 6 months ago. Just sort of an idea on what they were. I have had terrible luck finding good hay. The previous ranch manager walked out (without telling anyone) with one round bale in the barn and 92 cows, in a drought. I've since cut the herd by half, fed liquid feed with low quality hay, and have managed to add condition over the winter. It started out looking like a cattle internment camp.

My experience with cattle is having three cows at a time, and their calves. We did take sick heifers and cows with mastitis from the organic dairies when we lived in Oregon, and we've all spent time with our neighbor working his cattle. He is also my backup when I feel like I'm in over my head.

My knowledge of genetics ends with rabbits, but I'm researching what I can. I've not heard too many people excited over black herefords. I've had a few baldies, and really like them. They seem to do very well at auction, too. Brangus is definitely an easier to find option around here.

My goal, at this point, is to retain heifers to replace some of my less thrifty, older cows with bad teeth and no sparkle in their eye. The ones that didn't fit the bill were sold. I still have some that I would like to get rid of, but that will have to wait until next year. I'll know my cows much better then, too.

As far as cross fencing, I have two pastures at the moment. My husband and I are trying to figure out our best bet for cross fencing. We have a big creek that dumps into the Fourche River in the middle if the property, so fencing options aren't the greatest (turns out, cows can swim ).

I think I've rambled out everything I can think of. Sorry 'bout that, but y'all asked. I sure appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. It gives me a lot of different things to read up on.

If you plan on retaining heifers, then I agree with @Ky hills . Use a CE Angus bull. Given where you are located, I would probably use a CE Brangus myself. But, I am a cattle trader, where as @Ky hills has developed an excellent program using Angus, Hereford and black Simmental. And he raises his own bulls and retains his heifers, In your situation, I would take his advice over mine. I bet if he were located further south, though, he would probably use Brangus in his program as well.

If I were you, I'd hold off on the Hereford for now. Once you get heifers by a good Angus/Brangus bull, you might use a CE Hereford on them to get some black baldies.

Those stunted cows you say are the size of yearlings? With the current prices being paid at sale barns, I would sell them. Take the money they bring and buy however many good 1st calf cows I could get for that money. Or use it to buy the best registered Angus( or Brangus) bull you can get for the money. Reducing those 50 cows to however many is left after selling the runts, one good bull would probably handle the load. When you sell the steers and heifers you don't want to retain next year, use part of the money to buy that Hereford bull in a year or two.

@Brute 23 gave you another valuable piece of advice that I agree with 100%. Keep free choice salt and minerals available to them at all times. How many acres are on this place?

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

My vote would be a high calving ease & low birth weight simmental or simangus. Want a baldy get one something like this.

 

[Son of Butch]

Many of the founding Black Hereford animals where carriers of the genetic defect MSUD.

I was trying to remember MSUD - only remembered that black herefords carry a nasty genetic defect that would make them
a bottom of the barrel choice to me.

 

[Travlr]

My vote would be a high calving ease & low birth weight simmental or simangus. Want a baldy get one something like this.

Ya know... it really bothers me how so many people advise "high calving ease & low birth weight" bulls as an automatic go to suggestion. It's no wonder we are having so many calving problems. I'm convinced that retained heifers from these bulls are less capable, especially over several generations.

 

[Ky hills]

Ya know... it really bothers me how so many people advise "high calving ease & low birth weight" bulls as an automatic go to suggestion. It's no wonder we are having so many calving problems. I'm convinced that retained heifers from these bulls are less capable, especially over several generations.

I agree with you that stacking extreme calving ease for multiple generations is likely not a great idea in the long run.
However, in some instances, this situation being a good example, I stand by my recommendation of a calving ease Angus bull. These are unknown cows, that are described as being stunted and at least some are in poor condition. To me since they are believed to be likely high percentage Angus, it makes sense to go with a calving ease bull of the same breed. This gives those cows a chance to have a smaller calf which is less stress on them and without the hybrid vigor effect that increases birthweight, and also increases the nutritional demand in the cow in raising the calf.
Had this been a herd of cows of average size or bigger and better condition then by all means the road would be open as far as options.
For my herd, I don't like to push the situation with high birthweight bulls, but prefer to stay around the breed average for cows. Since we do calve heifers out a little on the young side sometimes, I am a believer in calving ease bulls for them and prefer Angus in that role.
I would not use a continental bull at all for heifers of British breeding, and would only use CE, and BW of breed average or below with continental bulls on British breed cows.
Just based on my experience, other folks may have different results as there are so many variables.

 

[Travlr]

I agree with you that stacking extreme calving ease for multiple generations is likely not a great idea in the long run.
However, in some instances, this situation being a good example, I stand by my recommendation of a calving ease Angus bull. These are unknown cows, that are described as being stunted and at least some are in poor condition. To me since they are believed to be likely high percentage Angus, it makes sense to go with a calving ease bull of the same breed. This gives those cows a chance to have a smaller calf which is less stress on them and without the hybrid vigor effect that increases birthweight, and also increases the nutritional demand in the cow in raising the calf.
Had this been a herd of cows of average size or bigger and better condition then by all means the road would be open as far as options.
For my herd, I don't like to push the situation with high birthweight bulls, but prefer to stay around the breed average for cows. Since we do calve heifers out a little in the young side sometimes, I am a believer in calving ease bulls for them and prefer Angus in that role.
I would not use a continental bull at all for heifers of British breeding, and would only use CE, and BW of breed average or below with continental bulls on British breed cows.
Just based on my experience, other folks may have different results as there are so many variables.

And I agree with everything you say... with some reservations.

I'm not even sure that my (and perhaps your) idea of "stunted" is the same as the OP's idea. In the pics I saw thin cows, but nothing I would call stunted. And he said he'd done a heavy cull... so are we going to assume he kept cows that didn't grow? He did say some of his cows were the size of yearlings, but does that mean height, weight, or what? With skinny cows they could weigh a lot less than they should, and be the same "size" as yearlings.

Basically we need more information.

If he's not retaining heifers and all he has is experienced cows, and will be feeding up his skinny cows to make them more fertile and will be breeding them in May/June for a spring calving season, his cows will be far more healthy by the time they calve. If he's looking to retain heifers as replacements, calving ease may not be the best advice. Or it might be better advice than mine... but we don't know. I wish the OP was more talkative.

OP... @pfaubush... how about some pics of your "stunted" cows alongside any that aren't stunted?

 

[Hogfarmer10]

Another option (albeit more expensive) would be divide the herd in half. Put your "better" 25 together, breed them, while your "stunted"/ smaller ones are still being fed/ getting grass and hopefully increasing their body condition. Then breed those a little later. That would give you 2 defined calving cycles, smaller amount of cattle to be on calf watch per time, and you could get by with just 1 bull. I'll vote with either a Hereford or a Gelbvieh.

 

[Ky hills]

And I agree with everything you say... with some reservations.

I'm not even sure that my (and perhaps your) idea of "stunted" is the same as the OP's idea. In the pics I saw thin cows, but nothing I would call stunted. And he said he'd done a heavy cull... so are we going to assume he kept cows that didn't grow? He did say some of his cows were the size of yearlings, but does that mean height, weight, or what? With skinny cows they could weigh a lot less than they should, and be the same "size" as yearlings.

Basically we need more information.

If he's not retaining heifers and all he has is experienced cows, and will be feeding up his skinny cows to make them more fertile and will be breeding them in May/June for a spring calving season, his cows will be far more healthy by the time they calve. If he's looking to retain heifers as replacements, calving ease may not be the best advice. Or it might be better advice than mine... but we don't know. I wish the OP was more talkative.

OP... @pfaubush... how about some pics of your "stunted" cows alongside any that aren't stunted?

I agree, there is so much that we don't know, and that what we do know is somewhat subjective.
The cow in the last picture looks pretty thin to me, and I'm not sure that cows like that could be dependably fed into breeding condition or not that quick. If bred now which is unlikely, is she even in shape enough to have a healthy calf and supply it with what it needs. To me it's going to take sone time with cows like that one even if they get back in shape it's going to take some time beyond that. Some of the cows in the first picture didn't look too bad and I believe they could make that timeline fairly easily.
Honestly I would not be concerned with retaining anything out that herd this time around, concentrate on nutrition of the cows and getting them bred and a calf on the ground as easily as possible, and continue to cull. Then once you know what they are capable of then maybe try to retain. I'm someone that loves to retain heifers, but I like to know what's going on and a little more about what to expect, otherwise in this case to me it would be better to bring in replacements, until atleast one calving cycle gets over with.

 

[redcowsrule33]

I agree, there is so much that we don't know, and that what we do know is somewhat subjective.
The cow in the last picture looks pretty thin to me, and I'm not sure that cows like that could be dependably fed into breeding condition or not that quick. If bred now which is unlikely, is she even in shape enough to have a healthy calf and supply it with what it needs. To me it's going to take sone time with cows like that one even if they get back in shape it's going to take some time beyond that. Some of the cows in the first picture didn't look too bad and I believe they could make that timeline fairly easily.
Honestly I would not be concerned with retaining anything out that herd this time around, concentrate on nutrition of the cows and getting them bred and a calf on the ground as easily as possible, and continue to cull. Then once you know what they are capable of then maybe try to retain. I'm someone that loves to retain heifers, but I like to know what's going on and a little more about what to expect, otherwise in this case to me it would be better to bring in replacements, until atleast one calving cycle gets over with.

Agree with Ky Hills on this. With the OP's level of experience it's an uphill battle to gets these girls in shape and bred so they can see what they're capable of. If the owner wants black get go a black bull to start. It will put less blame on you if the cows don't produce.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Yawn, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ad infintim,,,,,,

 

[Davemk]

Yawn, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ad infintim,,,,,,

Thanks for that wonderful answer Lee

 

[farmerjan]

And, the poster said SHE was female.

Thank you for posting where you are. If you were in northern states a brangus or anything with an "ear" would get the calves greatly discounted.
I like the idea of splitting the herd in 2 and getting the better cows bred ASAP... putting some weight on the poorer ones. Also, you said stunted.... that means a million different things to the different readers.
I would also go with a decent Angus and get some calves on the ground. Or a Limflex or something that your friend/neighbor would recommend. Putting some weight on them is first priority... and you said the pictures were from several months ago so I am thinking that you have been working on their condition. Did you worm them?

Maybe post some current pictures? I think it sounds like you are doing the very best with what you have and are open to suggestions. That is great you have a neighbor to fall back on.

Free choice salt and mineral and a good worming will go a long way to seeing which ones recover the best and can support a calf.
Please stick with us on here and keep us updated on how you are doing. You can also go to the little envelope at the top right and send a private message to anyone who you feel you want to give more detailed info or ask a question. Maybe find another member close to you to come out and give their opinion?

By the way, I am female too!!!

 

[Travlr]

And, the poster said SHE was female.

Ooops...

Apologies...

 

[Brute 23]

I guess I'm a lot more optimistic than most. I'd love to get a glove in them and a bull in there and see what's... what's. If they are breeding and raising babies like that... they are the right kind.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Ya know... it really bothers me how so many people advise "high calving ease & low birth weight" bulls as an automatic go to suggestion. It's no wonder we are having so many calving problems. I'm convinced that retained heifers from these bulls are less capable, especially over several generations.

Easy calving bulls are a great tool for heifers. And that's all those bulls should be used for.
I expect my 1,400lb cows to have 85+lb calves unassisted, and prefer 90-95lbers