Debating Bull Breeds

[pfaubush]

In September, I took over a ranch with nearly 100 commercial black cows. I've cut the herd by half because there was no hay to be found. I sold the worst of them (the last two running the place figured a cow is a cow is a cow). I'm still not impressed with what I have, but have no choice but to make them work.

There were two bulls that were junk. I sold both, and am now looking for my replacement. I really like the idea of a polled hereford, and what it would bring to my herd. I also really enjoy the baddies, and would like to eventually use them to replace my remaining herd.

The owner of the ranch prefers to have all black cattle. I've got him on board with the hereford, but just barely. So, here are my questions.

Would a black hereford bring the same attributes as the red? I've heard mixed reviews. Since I don't know what breeds/mixes cows are, is hereford really the direction to go? I have a neighbor suggesting limflex, too. I haven't had the chance to research that, yet.

I am in a position where lbw is extremely important, as I have some stunted cows that aren't much bigger than the year-old calves.
I'm attaching a couple pics of a few of my cows. These really only give a glimpse of what I'm working with.

 

[Brute 23]

Looks like they need some grass but didn't see any thing in the pics too bad. If you will include a general area where you are located people can chime in with area specific help.

I don't think you are in that bad of shape, actually. You cut the herd in half which is a big step in the right direction.

First thing I would do is ear tag every cow and every calf and match them up. Find out who has calves and who does not. If they do have a calf just take a wild stab at the age. Get it all written down. If they do not have a calf get them palp. In fact, palp evey thing.

With 50 cows I would say you would be safer with 2 young bulls. A good Hereford (no such thing as a black Hereford) and a good Black Angus would go real nice with those cows, IMO. There is a good chance you will get some red motts. Retain heifers based on performance, not color.

I also would not limit yourself to a polled Hereford either. The horns you may get are not that big of a deal to remove for a quality animal.

With what calves are bringing, some of those calves could easily be sold if they will hit #400. Get them gone since they are likely not going to reach their full potential and give the cows a break while you get the bulls lined up. Its kind of like hitting the reset. With knowing who is bred and who is not it will help you find out when you will need the two new bulls.

 

[A.J.]

I'm not sure where you are located, but in most places it's hard to beat a black baldy calf. They sell good as feeders, and make great replacements too. The only catch to using a Hereford is you might get some red calves here and there since you don't know the genetic makeup of the cows. Since some of your cows are probably Angus or Angus cross, you would get more heterosis bang for your buck with Hereford over a black Hereford, but a good bull from either breed should still give you some good calves. You could get a Hereford and an Angus bull for the number of cows you have, and should get some good calves and see which type calf you prefer.

 

[jscunn]

Easier to find a good Hereford bull vs a good Black Hereford, it is just numbers way more Herefords out there.

Also the true F1s will bring you a good bit at auction. Another choice might be a White Faced LBW Simmental, I would use that way before I used a black hereford.

 

[Travlr]

In September, I took over a ranch with nearly 100 commercial black cows. I've cut the herd by half because there was no hay to be found. I sold the worst of them (the last two running the place figured a cow is a cow is a cow). I'm still not impressed with what I have, but have no choice but to make them work.

There were two bulls that were junk. I sold both, and am now looking for my replacement. I really like the idea of a polled hereford, and what it would bring to my herd. I also really enjoy the baddies, and would like to eventually use them to replace my remaining herd.

The owner of the ranch prefers to have all black cattle. I've got him on board with the hereford, but just barely. So, here are my questions.

Would a black hereford bring the same attributes as the red? I've heard mixed reviews. Since I don't know what breeds/mixes cows are, is hereford really the direction to go? I have a neighbor suggesting limflex, too. I haven't had the chance to research that, yet.

I am in a position where lbw is extremely important, as I have some stunted cows that aren't much bigger than the year-old calves.
I'm attaching a couple pics of a few of my cows. These really only give a glimpse of what I'm working with.

As said... location may make a difference in the advice that works. Put a location on your profile.

It's a sad fact that black calves get higher prices and any other color of equal quality will get less. The Certified Angus Beef program is a marketing program to sell Angus bulls, it's a brilliant marketing strategy, and it's also damaging the entire industry.

So you have fifty black cows. How did you prioritize separating them when you sold off half of the herd? Condition? Size? Teeth? The size of their calf? The twinkle in their eye?

What you are looking for in a bull is something that will wean consistent looking black calves with enough weight that high end feedlot owners will be interested in them. If you don't have heifers you shouldn't be overly concerned with easy calving, but you don't want monsters either. Since the cows are likely to be homozygous black, assuming black bulls have always been used and black animals either retained or bought as replacements, you have options on bulls.

A Hereford will throw black, white faced calves. They sell very well if they are in good condition and growthy. A homozygous black Simmental or Limousine will throw great calves and you don't have to worry about being discounted due to color. A Char will throw smoky calves that may or may not be dinged at the sale barn. Crossbred calves will usually grow better and be healthier in general due to hybrid vigor.

I recommend you stay away from horned bulls. It's likely your cows are naturally polled but you never know unless you know, or find out by having horned calves and then you have to deal with horns. Horned bulls aren't a bad idea if you KNOW your cows are homozygous polled and you are raising terminal cross calves, not retaining heifers.

Two bulls are a good idea. If you use a white face and a solid bull you will know which bull did their job best for future replacement.

How about a little info on your own experience? Have you had cattle? Know anything about pasture management? Rotational grazing? Has the place got crossfencing? Is there hay ground? Are you setting things up for a specific calving season?

 

[gcreekrch]

Looks like they need some grass but didn't see any thing in the pics too bad. If you will include a general area where you are located people can chime in with area specific help.

I don't think you are in that bad of shape, actually. You cut the herd in half which is a big step in the right direction.

First thing I would do is ear tag every cow and every calf and match them up. Find out who has calves and who does not. If they do have a calf just take a wild stab at the age. Get it all written down. If they do not have a calf get them palp. In fact, palp evey thing.

With 50 cows I would say you would be safer with 2 young bulls. A good Hereford (no such thing as a black Hereford) and a good Black Angus would go real nice with those cows, IMO. There is a good chance you will get some red motts. Retain heifers based on performance, not color.

I also would not limit yourself to a polled Hereford either. The horns you may get are not that big of a deal to remove for a quality animal.

With what calves are bringing, some of those calves could easily be sold if they will hit #400. Get them gone since they are likely not going to reach their full potential and give the cows a break while you get the bulls lined up. Its kind of like hitting the reset. With knowing who is bred and who is not it will help you find out when you will need the two new bulls.

Yes to all the above. Trading a minute to burn horns off when small in order to gain more growth and quality is a good trade.

 

[Rafter S]

If you're in the south or southeast, where you won't get docked for some ear, a Brangus bull would be a good option, and will keep the calves black. Otherwise, a Hereford would be good. You'd probably get mostly black calves (with varying amounts of white on the faces, of course) anyway.

I wouldn't worry about getting a polled bull if you go with Hereford. Most of the cows probably have enough Angus that the calves will be polled.

Slightly off subject, speaking of polled Hereford bulls, that reminds me of something I heard an old cattleman say decades ago about them. "When they bred the horns off they bred the a** off too."

 

[W.B.]

Black Hereford would be my last choice. The bottom pictured cow needs body condition improvement to raise a healthy calf.

 

[Warren Allison]

Black Herefords have the exact same genetics as red Herefords. There is no blood line in Hereford that you can not find in Black Hereford. Black Hereford is a composite breed, like Braangus, Gert, etc. They are 5/8ths Hereford and 3/8ths Angus. However, you can breed a black Hereford to a red one and if the calf is black it can be registered Black Herford. Black Herefords can be 15/16ths or more Hereford,. They are as much Hereford as a black Simm is a Simm, or black Lim is a Lim.

If all the cows are homozygous black,, you would get all black baldies from a red Hereford bull. If they are not, you could get some red ones. Using Black Hereford will insure all the calves are black baldies. Where are you located? If in the lower third of the country, I would consider using Brangus bulls. Or if you want bladies, use a Braford bull.

 

[Rmc]

Black Herefords are a composite breed of Hereford and Angus definitely not genetically identical to Herefords.
Many of the founding Black Hereford animals where carriers of the genetic defect MSUD.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Black Hereford is a joke.
I still prefer horned Herefords over polled. Those F1 daughters are hard to beat. These are F1 angus dam horned Hereford sired hfrs. The calves are easy calving angus sired.
They just don't get much better.

 

[coachg]

I know I'll get blasted but if I was going to use Hereford I'd choose a horned bull . I think the horned Hereford are ahead of the poled folks . Like Warren said if you're very far south I'd consider brangus. I'm an angus man but we own some purebred Hereford cows and you can't beat those baldies !

 

[Rafter S]

I know I'll get blasted but if I was going to use Hereford I'd choose a horned bull . I think the horned Hereford are ahead of the poled folks . Like Warren said if you're very far south I'd consider brangus. I'm an angus man but we own some purebred Hereford cows and you can't beat those baldies !

I don't disagree about using a horned Hereford bull. I said so above.

And it wasn't Warren who suggested Brangus.

 

[Travlr]

I know I'll get blasted but if I was going to use Hereford I'd choose a horned bull . I think the horned Hereford are ahead of the poled folks . Like Warren said if you're very far south I'd consider brangus. I'm an angus man but we own some purebred Hereford cows and you can't beat those baldies ! View attachment 27529

I won't blast you...

I know there are great horned cattle. There are even reasons horned cattle can be a good choice.

That said, I think horned steers/heifers get discounted at sale time. Sometimes more, sometimes less, and if you choose to dehorn at any time it is an extra effort/time/expense. Also, whether horned Herefords are "better" than polled is pretty subjective. I do know that there are superior horned and polled animals and some that are not... and the trick is to find the best bull that will get you the highest numbers at the point of sale for offspring. If you put fifty horned bulls in with fifty polled bulls it will be a crap shoot which any person will pick, and if we separate them all by quality there will be both horned and polled in the upper and lower choices.

My biggest concern with the person asking for advice is whether he has experience and is willing to dehorn or live with horns. Just thinking this might be an appropriate thing to consider.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

I wouldn't buy a Polled Hereford bull and expect to have all black and polled calves. Red and horns are recessive traits and most of the popular "polled" Hereford bulls have the horned gene. Over the past decade or so the trend has been to blur the lines and produce half polled mutts. If you are going to buy a Hereford, seek out either a straight horned or straight polled breeder. Within all breeds there is a greater difference within breeds than outside breeds.

 

[A.J.]

He hasn't been on here in a while, but mrvictordomino in Kentucky had some excellent looking Polled Herefords. He's a few hours away from me, but he is who I would call if I was in the market for a Polled Hereford.

 

[daneg]

First decide if you want a maternal herd and keep replacements from within or a terminal herd and buy in replacement? Don't be afraid of horns sometimes the best genetics are under them horns and often more reasonably priced.

 

[BFE]

He hasn't been on here in a while, but mrvictordomino in Kentucky had some excellent looking Polled Herefords. He's a few hours away from me, but he is who I would call if I was in the market for a Polled Hereford.

You beat me to it. He has/had one of the top 2-3 herds on this site.

 

[Rafter S]

I won't blast you...

I know there are great horned cattle. There are even reasons horned cattle can be a good choice.

That said, I think horned steers/heifers get discounted at sale time. Sometimes more, sometimes less, and if you choose to dehorn at any time it is an extra effort/time/expense. Also, whether horned Herefords are "better" than polled is pretty subjective. I do know that there are superior horned and polled animals and some that are not... and the trick is to find the best bull that will get you the highest numbers at the point of sale for offspring. If you put fifty horned bulls in with fifty polled bulls it will be a crap shoot which any person will pick, and if we separate them all by quality there will be both horned and polled in the upper and lower choices.

My biggest concern with the person asking for advice is whether he has experience and is willing to dehorn or live with horns. Just thinking this might be an appropriate thing to consider.

I agree that horned calves will get discounted at sale time, but assuming those cows are predominantly Angus then polled Hereford sired calves should still be polled. I used horned Hereford bulls on black Brangus cows for years and never had one with horns showing at weaning age (so I think I can safely assume they never go them).

I got very few red calves from that cross also.

 

[WFfarm]

Black Hereford=Angford. If you want a little muscling and some baldies look for a baldie or blazed Simmental bull. With the stunted condition of the cows, you'll definitely want to look for calving ease bull.