SmokinM
Well-known member
In the market for a new bull so cruising the sale catalogs and videos. This particular sires offspring keeps catching my eye. Numbers look decent on most all of them. Anybody got any real world feedback to share? Thanks
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Ebenezer
Well-known member
If you want big hairy cows.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Super popular around here. His offspring have been topping production sales the last couple years.
jscunn
Well-known member
i agree with the hairy part. if you get one without hair you got something good thou. we have our third crop. this years yearling heifers shed off really well as calves..
Does the hair cause a price reduction? Or just an environmental issue?
BFE
Well-known member
You and I, living in the fescue belt, want slick hair as soon as possible in the year. Indicator of fescue/heat tolerance, so environmental. It's also a health indicator, of a good healthy balanced hormonal situation.
BFE
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
For us non-Angus breeders - what is $EN? We only have 2 indexes - All Purpose (for breeding animals) and Terminal (for terminals - LOL)
SmokinM
Well-known member
Probably not retaining anything. Looking for reasonably sized calves with good growth and muscle, particularly some hip. Maybe this will help with feedback.
greybeard
Well-known member
BFE
Well-known member
Assuming the index is somewhat accurate I like to see them 10 to -15 range. The far ends of the spectrum will be giving up too much one way or the other.
I like the API. It's a good quick glance reference, but I've seen some outstanding bulls Com in around 100, so it's not gospel.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
LOL yes, but what does it stand for? $EN
Mark Reynolds
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- $EN: Cow energy value. A gauge of the input requirements of a sire's daughters in dollar savings per cow per year. Used by Angus producers.
- https://homesteadontherange.com/2015/02/16/epds-for-beef-cattle-a-glossary-of-traits/
Mark Reynolds
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Started a new thread. Might be helpful. I posted an answer here as well.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
AAA has more than 30 epd's and index values. Some are pretty straight forward like birth weight, weaning weight, yearling weight - all based on actual weight measurements. If a person uses epd's, it seems reasonable to think that actual measured weights from progeny could be used to predict growth ability.
But some are pretty obscure like this one: (From AAA website) "Cow Energy Value ($EN), expressed in dollar savings per cow per year, assesses differences in cow energy requirements as an expected dollar savings difference in daughters of sires. ..... Components for computing the cow $EN savings difference include lactation energy requirements and energy costs associated with differences in mature cow size."
Sounds like the $EN value is maybe calculated from the Mature Weight EPD (MW) and the Mature Height EPD (MH). I assume that the MW and MH epd's are calculated from actual measurements submitted by owners (from those willing to take the time to take and submit the data). But converting those to a dollar value to represent "lactation energy and energy costs" for a cow requires a lot more imagination for me than the relationship between actual weight and growth epds. Lots of variations in what and how a cow is fed and what that feed/forage costs. I think that having so many obscure values and index values tends to overwhelm and confuse. The value is in dollars. Are those values adjusted for inflation over time or relative cost of forage, hay, feedstuffs? I suspect not.
As stated, simmental only has 2 index values. API is supposed to represent $ value over many traits for those who retain replacements from their herd. TI is supposed to represent value for those where all calves are fed and enter the food chain. I remember when these two were developed. My sense was that they were developed because AAA had $indexes and simmental did not. So we needed some to not get behind. People look at the API value. Bigger (more dollars) is better, it seems. But 2 different bulls or cows can have the same API value and be very different in terms of individual traits. I will get to my point. I think the $ indexes tend to be marketing gimmicks. The "real" epd's have accuracies associated with them (based on amount of data submitted - number of progeny weighed). The $indexes (simmental or AAA) do not have an accuracy value. Just a number. Wonder why the difference.
But some are pretty obscure like this one: (From AAA website) "Cow Energy Value ($EN), expressed in dollar savings per cow per year, assesses differences in cow energy requirements as an expected dollar savings difference in daughters of sires. ..... Components for computing the cow $EN savings difference include lactation energy requirements and energy costs associated with differences in mature cow size."
Sounds like the $EN value is maybe calculated from the Mature Weight EPD (MW) and the Mature Height EPD (MH). I assume that the MW and MH epd's are calculated from actual measurements submitted by owners (from those willing to take the time to take and submit the data). But converting those to a dollar value to represent "lactation energy and energy costs" for a cow requires a lot more imagination for me than the relationship between actual weight and growth epds. Lots of variations in what and how a cow is fed and what that feed/forage costs. I think that having so many obscure values and index values tends to overwhelm and confuse. The value is in dollars. Are those values adjusted for inflation over time or relative cost of forage, hay, feedstuffs? I suspect not.
As stated, simmental only has 2 index values. API is supposed to represent $ value over many traits for those who retain replacements from their herd. TI is supposed to represent value for those where all calves are fed and enter the food chain. I remember when these two were developed. My sense was that they were developed because AAA had $indexes and simmental did not. So we needed some to not get behind. People look at the API value. Bigger (more dollars) is better, it seems. But 2 different bulls or cows can have the same API value and be very different in terms of individual traits. I will get to my point. I think the $ indexes tend to be marketing gimmicks. The "real" epd's have accuracies associated with them (based on amount of data submitted - number of progeny weighed). The $indexes (simmental or AAA) do not have an accuracy value. Just a number. Wonder why the difference.
Ebenezer
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Lets you know if you need a bigger feed truck or not!
Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Mark Reynolds
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Mark Reynolds
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IDK about a bigger feed truck, but a bigger brain to interpret something that is supposed to make things easy that has become very complex.....EPDs.Lets you know if you need a bigger feed truck or not!
Ebenezer
Well-known member
People buy based on EPDs and then question the validity of EPDs. There is little middle ground. I used them as comparatives more than absolutes. But if a bull is supposed to sire bigger calves (weaning and yearling) with more growth and larger mature size and high milk production in daughters - he is terminal compared to other bulls that are more moderate. He is also not going to leave a good legacy in a herd that grazes fescue and has no to very minimal supplements. The most screwball EPD for Angus is the MM. It is milk plus whatever else that does not compute into the other EPDs. Some heads ought to roll until a mathematician can be located to make that correction. To be so promoted in the breed as "the gospel" you think that they would get their stuff to be the most applicable.
