Deer Valley....

[CreekAngus]

I'm going to DVF in late June, I'll let you know if I find anything over three years old. Interesting how we can we be critical of others who don't do things the way we think they ought to.....In my real world career I always look to those who are doing it better than I am, to see if I can learn from what they are doing.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm going to DVF in late June, I'll let you know if I find anything over three years old. Interesting how we can we be critical of others who don't do things the way we think they ought to.....In my real world career I always look to those who are doing it better than I am, to see if I can learn from what they are doing.

I agree with you, but getting back to the discussion, seeing old cows still functional and fertile matter to me. A Ferrari is awesome when new and a maintenance nightmare after a few years. Maybe not a great analogy but the first one that came to mind.

I personally can't tell much about how a cow will turn out if I only keep her 3 years.

 

[TNRiver]

I'm going to DVF in late June, I'll let you know if I find anything over three years old. Interesting how we can we be critical of others who don't do things the way we think they ought to.....In my real world career I always look to those who are doing it better than I am, to see if I can learn from what they are doing.

It is my understanding that they are selling all the 3 YO's and older in the Spring AND the Fall sale.. so they should still have some...

 

[elkwc]

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

Keeping bulls for 8 to 10 years requires a lot of management. I try and trade bulls every 3 years. I'm not much for management. Out of everything we do the only things I can see that actually work is our fly management and rotational grazing.

TG I guess I was raised by a different type of top cattlemen. My Uncle managed a 44,000 acre, 1,000 cow ranch for 33 years. He planned on a bull lasting till at least 8 and a cow at least a few more years. Most of the other good cattlemen I've been around have been the same. Our last set of bulls lasted till they were 9-11. We are using a 9 y/o this year. Plan to sell him this fall but he tested excellent and still sound. After a PB breeder told me not to expect his bulls to make it past 6. I quit considering his bull. We have a group of 15-18 y/o cows with a 100% calf crop.

 

[True Grit Farms]

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

Keeping bulls for 8 to 10 years requires a lot of management. I try and trade bulls every 3 years. I'm not much for management. Out of everything we do the only things I can see that actually work is our fly management and rotational grazing.

TG I guess I was raised by a different type of top cattlemen. My Uncle managed a 44,000 acre, 1,000 cow ranch for 33 years. He planned on a bull lasting till at least 8 and a cow at least a few more years. Most of the other good cattlemen I've been around have been the same. Our last set of bulls lasted till they were 9-11. We are using a 9 y/o this year. Plan to sell him this fall but he tested excellent and still sound. After a PB breeder told me not to expect his bulls to make it past 6. I quit considering his bull. We have a group of 15-18 y/o cows with a 100% calf crop.

Sure can't argue about success. I can't see any scenario where we'd ever keep a bull past 5 or 6 y/o. The simple fact is your herd is supposed to improve with every calf crop or your backing up. Besides risking death from the heat, a 15 - 18 y/o cow cannot make it here in our short tough grass unless you have dentures made for it.

 

[haase]

Have had some of Deer Valley in my herd as well as SAV, amazing that someone on here that couldn't hold a candle to Deer Valley comes on here and criticizes their practices, must be some of that koolaid from Kentucky, head is big as a watermelon, and that dont mean s**t in the real world, nobody wants old cows or bulls, deal with it.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Have had some of Deer Valley in my herd as well as SAV, amazing that someone on here that couldn't hold a candle to Deer Valley comes on here and criticizes their practices, must be some of that koolaid from Kentucky, head is big as a watermelon, and that dont mean s**t in the real world, nobody wants old cows or bulls, deal with it.

I'm about to turn out a pair of Deer Valley bulls. Can't wait to see how they perform.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Have had some of Deer Valley in my herd as well as SAV, amazing that someone on here that couldn't hold a candle to Deer Valley comes on here and criticizes their practices, must be some of that koolaid from Kentucky, head is big as a watermelon, and that dont mean s**t in the real world, nobody wants old cows or bulls, deal with it.

So what makes an operation special? Slick marketing? Hype? Owner is a great guy?

If cows don't last or bulls don't last, then your operation won't last. Plain and simple. Do you think you get a refund on a cow that after three years of ownership looks like a beater?

I'm not saying, nor did I EVER say that DVF was selling beaters. You are putting words in my mouth. What I'm saying is this, you tell me how you can make a judgement call on longevity and feet on a 3 year old animal? You can't, you don't have a clue, you are just hoping it all works out. You don't have proof. You get a daughter out of a top AI sire and a 12-14 year old cow with good feet and fertility, and it's a safe bet that the daughter is going to be a long term performer. Maybe you replace your females often; maybe that's the case, maybe you can't afford to develop your replacements, who knows, but one thing is for sure replacements aren't cheap, and superb replacements are definitely not cheap. They are a far bigger expense than your bulls.

Let's cut the bullsh.t. We are at a point in history where the very best sires you could ever use are at your fingertips with AI. Hence the reason I'm buying more semen tanks, I buy every bull I think will improve my operation, I have a lot of options and can switch around all day long. There is no "secret sauce" in the Angus business, but if you want a secret, here it is, you pick the cows that last, and are fertile, not to mention they have great feet and if they are over 15 years old even better, and you AI them them to sires that have superb pedigree and performance. Not all progeny will be winners, but some will be, then you improve from there. That, or you buy your way in. If you cannot appreciate animals that last, then you just don't get it, you are focused too much on the short term.

I will post a video soon of a Eurotia/Hoover Dam heifer I own and bred that is settled to Bubs Southern Charm. She's not my very best heifer, I have far better than her, but I'm certain that you could search the country far and wide and not find her genetics/pedigree. You sure won't find them at auction. She's just one of many I have, and she will never be sold. So before you start calling names and saying that we don't know sh.t about Angus...get your facts straight.

If you don't know about the Eurotia cow family, you should read about them.

Here is something to get you started:

The Trangie herd maintained that tradition at the Sydney Royal Show. Brave Edward Glencarnock, a grandson of Blackcap Revolution, sired several Sydney Royal Show champions, including Trangie exhibits which won the Narrangullen Cup three times. The progeny of the cow Glencarnock Eurotia 4th won many prizes at the Sydney Royal Show. Among the prizewinning progeny were champion bulls Trangie Prism and Trangie Edward 4th, the twice champion cow Trangie Eurotia 2nd, and several reserve champions. Another cow, Blackcap Bixie 2nd was imported carrying Glencarnock Blackcap Eric which was champion bull at Sydney in 1933.

 

[CattleMan1920]

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

Keeping bulls for 8 to 10 years requires a lot of management. I try and trade bulls every 3 years. I'm not much for management. Out of everything we do the only things I can see that actually work is our fly management and rotational grazing.

TG I guess I was raised by a different type of top cattlemen. My Uncle managed a 44,000 acre, 1,000 cow ranch for 33 years. He planned on a bull lasting till at least 8 and a cow at least a few more years. Most of the other good cattlemen I've been around have been the same. Our last set of bulls lasted till they were 9-11. We are using a 9 y/o this year. Plan to sell him this fall but he tested excellent and still sound. After a PB breeder told me not to expect his bulls to make it past 6. I quit considering his bull. We have a group of 15-18 y/o cows with a 100% calf crop.

It's hard for people to believe what you said is true, but I believe what you posted Elk. I know it can happen with top genetics and management.

In my area I see PLENTY of really old John Deere tractors still running and in use, but almost no old tractors from other brands. It's not a fluke, the Deere's held up, the others made their way to the scrap heap.

People subconsciously desire what lasts and can be depended on.

 

[Ky hills]

Have had some of Deer Valley in my herd as well as SAV, amazing that someone on here that couldn't hold a candle to Deer Valley comes on here and criticizes their practices, must be some of that koolaid from Kentucky, head is big as a watermelon, and that dont mean s**t in the real world, nobody wants old cows or bulls, deal with it.

With all due respect and no disrespect or criticism of the Deer Valley program at all, the statement that no one wants old cows or bulls is somewhat debatable. I agree that as a mainly commercial outfit now that I would not seek out to purchase large numbers of old cows, or even in my registered days I wouldn't have. I can almost guarantee that the DV program is counting on folks looking for mature cows. Those cows will bring real well and the purchasers will be hoping for longevity of their newly purchased cows. It's a good marketing strategy, I'm not against it at all.
For my herd I look at replacements and additions as long term Investments. I want a cow to produce a good calf as long as she can until there is need to cull. I am in the business also of selling bred heifers. It is my goal for these to be top end commercial cattle, our customers are willing to pay a premium for those kind of heifers they don't want to have to cull them within a couple years.

 

[True Grit Farms]

For starters I'm sure gIad I'm not trying to sell y'all heifers. How a cow turns out to be structurally in 10 - 15 years has no bearing on how your going to breed cattle in 10 -15 years. What's great now isn't going to be so great in the future. But I'd sure like to have a crystal ball.
I talked to Cook about DVF management decisions and he feels there's a lot of opportunities for those that use ET. You could buy a good donor cow from DVF and flush her differently than DVF is willing to do, and maybe hit a home run.

 

[Ebenezer]

What I'm saying is this, you tell me how you can make a judgement call on longevity and feet on a 3 year old animal? You can't, you don't have a clue, you are just hoping it all works out. You don't have proof.

Same goes for unproven bulls like the ones you mention frequently and with reverence. People do not breed to great unproven AI bulls or named cows due to proof they do so out of hope. That's why Angus operations last about 7 years on the average for registered folks. They run out of hope and money at about the same time.

 

[Ky hills]

For starters I'm sure gIad I'm not trying to sell y'all heifers. How a cow turns out to be structurally in 10 - 15 years has no bearing on how your going to breed cattle in 10 -15 years. What's great now isn't going to be so great in the future. But I'd sure like to have a crystal ball.
I talked to Cook about DVF management decisions and he feels there's a lot of opportunities for those that use ET. You could buy a good donor cow from DVF and flush her differently than DVF is willing to do, and maybe hit a home run.

True Grit, the folks buying those cows are definitely going to want them to last a while. I agree with you in that 15 years down the road things will be different trends always change. However a good functional cow that weans off a big calf and breeds back in a timely fashion each year timeless. You can add modern trends and genetics through the bull and subsequent daughters retained from that good cow.

 

[True Grit Farms]

For starters I'm sure gIad I'm not trying to sell y'all heifers. How a cow turns out to be structurally in 10 - 15 years has no bearing on how your going to breed cattle in 10 -15 years. What's great now isn't going to be so great in the future. But I'd sure like to have a crystal ball.
I talked to Cook about DVF management decisions and he feels there's a lot of opportunities for those that use ET. You could buy a good donor cow from DVF and flush her differently than DVF is willing to do, and maybe hit a home run.

True Grit, the folks buying those cows are definitely going to want them to last a while. I agree with you in that 15 years down the road things will be different trends always change. However a good functional cow that weans off a big calf and breeds back in a timely fashion each year timeless. You can add modern trends and genetics through the bull and subsequent daughters retained from that good cow.

I agree with all that. An old cow is a good cow, or she wouldn't of made it to be old. My oldest cows historically are the one's that seem to struggle the most holding condition and delivering a calf every 12 months. I shouldn't write this because we haven't checked cows yet, but so far there's not a cow buried on the place. I'm 100% sure our luck is going to run out, but I do contribute a lot of our luck to our culling and breeding practices.

 

[Bright Raven]

For starters I'm sure gIad I'm not trying to sell y'all heifers. How a cow turns out to be structurally in 10 - 15 years has no bearing on how your going to breed cattle in 10 -15 years. What's great now isn't going to be so great in the future. But I'd sure like to have a crystal ball.
I talked to Cook about DVF management decisions and he feels there's a lot of opportunities for those that use ET. You could buy a good donor cow from DVF and flush her differently than DVF is willing to do, and maybe hit a home run.

True Grit, the folks buying those cows are definitely going to want them to last a while. I agree with you in that 15 years down the road things will be different trends always change. However a good functional cow that weans off a big calf and breeds back in a timely fashion each year timeless. You can add modern trends and genetics through the bull and subsequent daughters retained from that good cow.

I agree with all that. An old cow is a good cow, or she wouldn't of made it to be old. My oldest cows historically are the one's that seem to struggle the most holding condition and delivering a calf every 12 months. I shouldn't write this because we haven't checked cows yet, but so far there's not a cow buried on the place. I'm 100% sure our luck is going to run out, but I do contribute a lot of our luck to our culling and breeding practices.

My neighbor doesn't bury his either. He drags them into the holler to feed the varmints.

 

[True Grit Farms]

True Grit, the folks buying those cows are definitely going to want them to last a while. I agree with you in that 15 years down the road things will be different trends always change. However a good functional cow that weans off a big calf and breeds back in a timely fashion each year timeless. You can add modern trends and genetics through the bull and subsequent daughters retained from that good cow.

I agree with all that. An old cow is a good cow, or she wouldn't of made it to be old. My oldest cows historically are the one's that seem to struggle the most holding condition and delivering a calf every 12 months. I shouldn't write this because we haven't checked cows yet, but so far there's not a cow buried on the place. I'm 100% sure our luck is going to run out, but I do contribute a lot of our luck to our culling and breeding practices.

My neighbor doesn't bury his either. He drags them into the holler to feed the varmints.

I don't, I own a backhoe and bury everything that dies or we kill. He probably complains about the buzzards, dogs and coyotes getting his calves. Out of sight out of mind.

 

[Bright Raven]

I agree with all that. An old cow is a good cow, or she wouldn't of made it to be old. My oldest cows historically are the one's that seem to struggle the most holding condition and delivering a calf every 12 months. I shouldn't write this because we haven't checked cows yet, but so far there's not a cow buried on the place. I'm 100% sure our luck is going to run out, but I do contribute a lot of our luck to our culling and breeding practices.

My neighbor doesn't bury his either. He drags them into the holler to feed the varmints.

I don't, I own a backhoe and bury everything that dies or we kill. He probably complains about the buzzards, dogs and coyotes getting his calves. Out of sight out of mind.

Yep. He hates the black Vultures. I have had cows die. I don't have a way to bury them. I put them on a round bale of hay saturated in diesel. If done right. They are gone.

 

[True Grit Farms]

My neighbor doesn't bury his either. He drags them into the holler to feed the varmints.

I don't, I own a backhoe and bury everything that dies or we kill. He probably complains about the buzzards, dogs and coyotes getting his calves. Out of sight out of mind.

Yep. He hates the black Vultures. I have had cows die. I don't have a way to bury them. I put them on a round bale of hay saturated in diesel. If done right. They are gone.

Ron this is pure speculation, but big calves can cause problems you can't see. I posted a picture of a fancy high priced Erica heifer that I put down years ago because she had a big dead calf, and everything else hanging out the back. She was bloated and her eyes rolled backwards and I tried everything to push the mess back in. Milkmaid said to put her down so that's what I did.

 

[CattleMan1920]

My neighbor doesn't bury his either. He drags them into the holler to feed the varmints.

I don't, I own a backhoe and bury everything that dies or we kill. He probably complains about the buzzards, dogs and coyotes getting his calves. Out of sight out of mind.

Yep. He hates the black Vultures. I have had cows die. I don't have a way to bury them. I put them on a round bale of hay saturated in diesel. If done right. They are gone.

If I'm not mistaken U.K. puts them in a large compost pile, covers them over and let's nature go to work.

 

[CattleMan1920]

What I'm saying is this, you tell me how you can make a judgement call on longevity and feet on a 3 year old animal? You can't, you don't have a clue, you are just hoping it all works out. You don't have proof.

Same goes for unproven bulls like the ones you mention frequently and with reverence. People do not breed to great unproven AI bulls or named cows due to proof they do so out of hope. That's why Angus operations last about 7 years on the average for registered folks. They run out of hope and money at about the same time.

How long have you held on with your strategy?