Large Cow vs Midsize Cow - more anecdotal evidence

[SRBeef]

Doc, There is exactly the same problem in grain farming - emphasis on the YIELD (bu/acre) often with little regard for the costs to produce that yield.

Makes for good talk at the coffee shop or elevator or sale barn but not good talk at the bank.

Simply put, it is the NET INCOME (=profit) that counts, not the GROSS INCOME (=sales).

Very often, Maximum Profit does NOT occur at maximum yield.

I use the analogy of the 500 lb pumpkin raised for the fair. Sure you can do it: water it every day, fertilize it every week, thin all others, etc. but do you make any money on it?

Jim

 

[TexasBred]

Doc, There is exactly the same problem in grain farming - emphasis on the YIELD (bu/acre) often with little regard for the costs to produce that yield.

Makes for good talk at the coffee shop or elevator or sale barn but not good talk at the bank.

Simply put, it is the NET INCOME (=profit) that counts, not the GROSS INCOME (=sales).

Very often, Maximum Profit does NOT occur at maximum yield.

I use the analogy of the 500 lb pumpkin raised for the fair. Sure you can do it: water it every day, fertilize it every week, thin all others, etc. but do you make any money on it?

Jim

"Point of diminishing return".

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Reading ranching magazine articles in the past, I have seen several discussions on nutrition of 1 and 2 year old heifers needing to be appropriate for a growing animal to maximize their potential. I understand that an appropriate % of mature weight needs to be met to limit chances of dystocia prior to breeding so that adequate pelvic diameter can be developed.

However, I have often contemplated if a heifer with genetic potential to be larger frame/mass could be raised in a more limited environment, and have a response in limiting her from reaching her full size potential at maturation (maybe decreasing it by 200 lbs). Could this smaller framed, lighter weight cow be more conservative on feed (less overall body mass) but retain a genetic ability to raise a larger calf. With this model, the nutrition to the marketed calves would not be limited and once the cow's reached maturitity (slightly stunted for lack of a better term, or maybe just not maximized), appropriate nutrition would be provided to keep them in adequate condition for re-breeding, with the idea that it would take less overall feed to do so.

Or does limiting available nutrition not affect the mature size an animal will reach, but just delay the time it takes to get there?

 

[Angus Cowman]

limitiing the feed will basically just stunt the animal and IMO is wrong and usually causes an animal to be less productive and can cause other problems down the road

 

[3waycross]

Some considerations

1. The big cow could have been the boss cows and ran the smaller ones off. The group of big cows did include the boss cow but there was more room at the feeder
2. They may have been near the bale when you fed them and the smaller cows may not have seen it. They were all gathered around as I loaded the feeder.
3. Some cows prefer hay as it is something a bit different. Possible
4. Smaller cows might like to graze. Possible - I like that
5. Were the big cows raised the same as the smaller cows? Yes
6. Just because the big cows had their head in the bale doesn't mean they are eating more if the smaller ones were out grazing ?
7. Big cows came up for water and stayed by the feeder n/a
8. Smaller cows may have either already been at the feeder or came up after you left. no
9. Bigger cows may need more feed. yes, my conclusion

BRG, the main reason I put out hay was that the manure patties looked very flat/runny and like they need more roughage. My over riding conclusion is that the big cows overall consume much more grazing and hay and anything else I put out and produce about the same calf. Using the 3% of wt/day rule this is not surprising but just more evidence. Thank you.

Jim

I would be a lot more inclined to put out hay if their patties looked tall and piled up real high. If they were not losing body condition and they had fairly loose droppings I would say they were doing just fine?

 

[SRBeef]

I would be a lot more inclined to put out hay if their patties looked tall and piled up real high. If they were not losing body condition and they had fairly loose droppings I would say they were doing just fine?

From the "cow pie ology" posts and references here in the past, I was under the impression that a flat runny cow pie and dirty rear ends was the result of too much protein and too little roughage in the diet.

It was my impression also that green fall grazing after a frost had higher protein content than usual.

The year-old wrapped hay I put out for them is probably about 10% protein but coupled with the very green but short grazing left to them would provide primarily roughage - at least more than they get from this fall grass. I'm looking at the hay as more filler.

Am I wrong on this? Their condition has stayed very stable (BCS 6 or better) and good even still nursing very large calves. I was concerned about the difference in the cow pies than what I am used to seeing earlier.

Thanks for any info. Jim

 

[3waycross]

You are not wrong. I just look at it like if they are stacked up too high they are getting lots of roughage but not enuf nutrition. But what the he[[ do I know. :dunce:

 

[KNERSIE]

Registered Angus 10 1/2 year old cow, 5.83 frame (hip height 54"), body condition score of 5, weight is 1626. Her bull calf born 3-19-2009 weaned 766lbs on 10-29-2010

Registered Angus cow 7 1/2 years old, (no score when bought) hip height 52.5" , body condition score of 9, weight is 1540. Her heifer calf born 3-13-10 weaned 680lbs on 10-29-10.
Full sister to 7 1/2 year old cow but 1 year older, hip height 55 1/2, body condition score 7, weight is 1712. Her heifer calf born 3-19-2010 weaned 638lbs on 10-29-10.
1/2 sister to these 2 cows (same sire) 7 1/2 years old, hip height 52 1/5", body condition score of 8, weight is 1464. Her heifer calf born 3-13-2010 weaned 610lbs on 10-29-2010.

Same sire on all calves. Don't really see much difference in short and tall cows. Maybe the ability to achieve heavy muscling is better than cow size. I had a high 6 frame cow that I sold that had a #19 ww EPD and a +27.29 $E. Hard to keep bred but :lol: saved money on feed $E
Valerie

Have you ever thought that the fact that you creep feed as you do might even up the playing field for those big girls?

Please post a photo or two of those heavy muscled angus, I'd like to see something new from time to time.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I would be a lot more inclined to put out hay if their patties looked tall and piled up real high. If they were not losing body condition and they had fairly loose droppings I would say they were doing just fine?

From the "cow pie ology" posts and references here in the past, I was under the impression that a flat runny cow pie and dirty rear ends was the result of too much protein and too little roughage in the diet.

It was my impression also that green fall grazing after a frost had higher protein content than usual.

The year-old wrapped hay I put out for them is probably about 10% protein but coupled with the very green but short grazing left to them would provide primarily roughage - at least more than they get from this fall grass. I'm looking at the hay as more filler.

Am I wrong on this? Their condition has stayed very stable (BCS 6 or better) and good even still nursing very large calves. I was concerned about the difference in the cow pies than what I am used to seeing earlier

I graze a lot of high legume pastures, and some grass meadows. You can see cows drop condition in a week when rotated into a paddock where the protein level is too high. I think having a straw bale or a grass hay bale out is a great idea.

 

[vclavin]

Registered Angus 10 1/2 year old cow, 5.83 frame (hip height 54"), body condition score of 5, weight is 1626. Her bull calf born 3-19-2009 weaned 766lbs on 10-29-2010

Registered Angus cow 7 1/2 years old, (no score when bought) hip height 52.5" , body condition score of 9, weight is 1540. Her heifer calf born 3-13-10 weaned 680lbs on 10-29-10.
Full sister to 7 1/2 year old cow but 1 year older, hip height 55 1/2, body condition score 7, weight is 1712. Her heifer calf born 3-19-2010 weaned 638lbs on 10-29-10.
1/2 sister to these 2 cows (same sire) 7 1/2 years old, hip height 52 1/5", body condition score of 8, weight is 1464. Her heifer calf born 3-13-2010 weaned 610lbs on 10-29-2010.

Same sire on all calves. Don't really see much difference in short and tall cows. Maybe the ability to achieve heavy muscling is better than cow size. I had a high 6 frame cow that I sold that had a #19 ww EPD and a +27.29 $E. Hard to keep bred but :lol: saved money on feed $E
Valerie

Have you ever thought that the fact that you creep feed as you do might even up the playing field for those big girls?

Please post a photo or two of those heavy muscled angus, I'd like to see something new from time to time.

I'll see what I can do. Of course, I did not necessarily mean :"mine" were heavily muscled just that a cow that is smaller framed but has the ability to put on more muscle (as muscle weighs more than fat). In other words, a short, long, wide cow might be better at converting feed and still raise a "heavy" calf.
Valerie

 

[Commercialfarmer]

limitiing the feed will basically just stunt the animal and IMO is wrong and usually causes an animal to be less productive and can cause other problems down the road

To be clear, not talking starving them, just not maximizing there potential size. You may be absolutely correct, as I have read about productivity in many articles. But it seems most articles state this as a given and don't site any references that I have found. What is the productivity loss- rebreading on future heat cycles (past the first rebreading cycle), milk production, calf growth? What do you consider the potential problems down the road?

There are plenty of sources stating that too much BCS in a growing heifer can limit future milk production due to development of fat in the mammary tissue and studies can be found to back it up.

 

[cow pollinater]

Eventually that cow will reach full size. She'll be at a negative energy balance until she does and everything she tries to do in between will suffer. You would be much better off to breed a more moderate frame size cow that can get up to speed fast and efficient and then use a terminal bull to get a bigger calf out of a smaller cow.

 

[MF135]

I have been wanting to ask this for some time now. How does the animals metabolism play apart in this evaluation? Theoreticall, I understand how a heavier animal would require a higher maintenance caloric intake but is this necessarily the case? I mean we all know smaller body weight individuals who consume far more, yet stay smaller. I would think that to make the comparison solely on body weight would imply that all cows, regardless of breed or pedigree, have the same conversion ratio?? Just some thoughts I look forward to hear others opinion.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Eventually that cow will reach full size. She'll be at a negative energy balance until she does and everything she tries to do in between will suffer. You would be much better off to breed a more moderate frame size cow that can get up to speed fast and efficient and then use a terminal bull to get a bigger calf out of a smaller cow.

I'm sure your correct and have always operated in this fashion, was just attempting to think outside the box and looking for an edge. Probably should not have been typing while pondering. :dunce:

Along similar lines of this topic and MF135's response: If cellular metabolism is largely influenced by mitochondia and mitochondria DNA is directly inherited by the female linage only, Is there evidence that the dam of the animal has more (not all) control over the efficency and maintenance of body condition of the progeny than the sire? Wondered about this with all the cloning that has started and differences people have reported in the phenotypes of identical clones (except for their mitochondrial DNA).

I assume several of you wiser gentlemen with a few years under your belt and geneology of known cow families dating back many years could comment on your impressions.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I guess I didn't understand your question on the limit feeding
I wean my hfrs they get grain for approximatey 60 day then they are turned out on pasture in July
then the bulls are turned out in November So I don't know how I would limit feed them since they are on grass or hay except when they are in the weaning pasture

so again I don't know how you would limit feed an animal that is on grass unlees there isn't enough grass to support the animals you have on it

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

You just did compared to what some folks do AC.

 

[Douglas]

That is a darn interesting question Commercial. If all your cows were of the large cow potential variety, limiting there growth to reduce production cost while still passing on the growth gene so to speak is something worth discussing.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

That is a darn interesting question Commercial. If all your cows were of the large cow potential variety, limiting there growth to reduce production cost while still passing on the growth gene so to speak is something worth discussing.

had two full black simbrah sisters,, the oldest lost her first calf ""not her fault"" well between her 1st and 2nd calf she hit a growth spurt.. weighed 1800 pd in decent shape, around frame 7+ her sister matured to around 1400 smaller frame... both raised simular calves course the oldest ate like a race horse to maintain herself. if she had ever been really fat no telling what her weight would have been. but limiting their genetic potentail? id rather go with moderate and let them acheive their potentail.. my neighbor limits his .. his dink bull came over on me once and bred one of my breeding age heifers.. i thought she be ok, after all my heifers are bigger than his grown cows and half brahman.. had to all but cut the calf out of her should have hit her with lute...

 

[cow pollinater]

:dunce:

Not even close!

If cellular metabolism is largely influenced by mitochondia and mitochondria DNA is directly inherited by the female linage only, Is there evidence that the dam of the animal has more (not all) control over the efficency and maintenance of body condition of the progeny than the sire? Wondered about this with all the cloning that has started and differences people have reported in the phenotypes of identical clones (except for their mitochondrial DNA).

If you're willing to pick and choose genetics to get to the end goal of efficiancy than check out the higher reliability angus sires in the ABS catalog. They have cow energy evaluations and from what I can tell they are not directly correlated to size. I doubt that breeding big cows and limiting their feed would work but breeding for proven efficiancy and letting size take a backseat should work quite well.