Large Cow vs Midsize Cow - more anecdotal evidence

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SRBeef

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I put out my first hay bales of the season yesterday just as insurance even though there is still a fair amount of grass in the pastures open to my cattle.

I went out awhile later and find my three largest (one 1900, two 1800 lb range) cows with their heads buried in the bale feeder while all of the ones from 1700 on down were out aggressively grazing what grass is left.

I think this is related to the cow size discussions we've had...or could just be coincidence.

Jim
 
What if the larger ones were actually the smarter ones that are the quickest to recognize a higher TDN food source? If so then they could be larger because they have made themselves availbe to higher TDN groceries longer than the smaller cows. Perhaps an uncommon perspective, but wouldn't if be worthy of consideration? Or is it just currently fashionable to automatically assume the largest cows as inefficient?
 
Julian":3ghysfmz said:
What if the larger ones were actually the smarter ones that are the quickest to recognize a higher TDN food source? If so then they could be larger because they have made themselves availbe to higher TDN groceries longer than the smaller cows. Perhaps an uncommon perspective, but wouldn't if be worthy of consideration? Or is it just currently fashionable to automatically assume the largest cows as inefficient?

Both above are good points - comments

There was more room at the feeder for a couple more cows so I think the smaller cows could have been there if they wanted to be eating hay.

My criteria for efficiency is calf weaning weight to cow weight at weaning. This may not be right for all systems but in mine makes a lot of sense (calves marketed/processed early@ 13-14 months).

My 50-60% cows were out grazing. My 30-40% cows had their heads stuck in a bale of purchased hay.

TDN considerations aside, my 60% cows have done well with their selection of grazing so far. Neither has had creep.

As I said, this is anecdotal at best. The grazers may have been in the hay heavily later. But just one more piece of info leading me to move toward 1200 lb/50%+ cows and away from 1800-1900 lb cows no matter how good they look.

Jim
 
Some considerations

1. The big cow could have been the boss cows and ran the smaller ones off
2. They may have been near the bale when you fed them and the smaller cows may not have seen it
3. Some cows prefer hay as it is something a bit different
4. Smaller cows might like to graze.
5. Were the big cows raised the same as the smaller cows? If not, they were taught to eat differently.
6. Just because the big cows had their head in the bale doesn't mean they are eating more if the smaller ones were out grazing
7. Big cows came up for water and stayed by the feeder
8. Smaller cows may have either already been at the feeder or came up after you left.
9. Bigger cows may need more feed.
 
BRG":1zp448mn said:
Some considerations

1. The big cow could have been the boss cows and ran the smaller ones off. The group of big cows did include the boss cow but there was more room at the feeder
2. They may have been near the bale when you fed them and the smaller cows may not have seen it. They were all gathered around as I loaded the feeder.
3. Some cows prefer hay as it is something a bit different. Possible
4. Smaller cows might like to graze. Possible - I like that
5. Were the big cows raised the same as the smaller cows? Yes
6. Just because the big cows had their head in the bale doesn't mean they are eating more if the smaller ones were out grazing ?
7. Big cows came up for water and stayed by the feeder n/a
8. Smaller cows may have either already been at the feeder or came up after you left. no
9. Bigger cows may need more feed. yes, my conclusion

BRG, the main reason I put out hay was that the manure patties looked very flat/runny and like they need more roughage. My over riding conclusion is that the big cows overall consume much more grazing and hay and anything else I put out and produce about the same calf. Using the 3% of wt/day rule this is not surprising but just more evidence. Thank you.

Jim
 
We have some cows that are just like that...they are older and know that it takes more work to graze than stick their heads in the feed bunk. They get more groecries with each bite and don't like to work for meals.
dave Mc
 
How Cow Weight and Milk Output Effect Revenue

Depending on the operation, feed costs are usually between 40% to 60% of annual cow costs. From a cost standpoint, continual focus on feed cost results in the greatest opportunity to increase profit potential of the cow/calf enterprise. Breed sire summaries indicate that the genetic trends for growth traits, carcass weight, and milk production have increased over the years. It is hard to see how milk production and mature weight of commercial cow herds has not continue increased over time. In addition, it hard to see how nutrient needs of the commercial cow herd haven't increased over time as well. McMurray (Feedstuffs article, 2008) suggested that average cow weight had increased 322 pounds between 1975 and 2005. McMurray indicates that average cow weight (weight for cows at body condition score 5) in 2005 was 1,369 pounds compared to 1,047 pounds in 1975.

As a refresher, maintenance feed is proportional to the animal's metabolic body weight. Metabolic body weight is defined as body weight to the 3/4 power (body weight3/4) which also describes the surface area and is representative of the active tissue mass or metabolic mass of an animal. So as cow weight increases, maintenance feed increases because metabolic body weight increases. In addition, as daily milk output increase, so does nutrient needs. In regard to milk production, not only are nutrient needs increased during the time of lactation, but the nutrient needs are also increased during the dry period because high milk potential females have a greater visceral organ weight compared to cows that have lower milk potential.

If milk output per day is fixed at 20 pounds per day and cow mature weight changes from 1,000 to 1,200 pounds or 1,400 pounds and cows are managed on a fixed resource base, with some assumptions, gross sale dollars can be determined. If par is a set of cows with a mature weight of 1,200 pounds and daily milk production is 20 pounds, using annual maintenance energy needs, 100 head of 1,200 pound cows producing 20 pounds of milk daily could be managed on a fixed resource base, using similar calculations, about 90 head of 1,400 pounds cows producing 20 pounds of milk daily or about 112 head of 1,000 pound cows could be managed on the same fixed resource base. Again, if cows in each weight group had a weaning rate of 85%, 85 calves, 77 calves, and 95 calves would be weaned from cows that weighed 1,200, 1,400, and 1,000 pounds respectively. It is a little more difficult to determine weaning weight of the calves as a percent of cow weight for cows of similar daily milk production. On a limited resource base, larger cows have potential to wean off heavy calves, but because of the limited resources, that genetic potential is not met. Bigger calves have greater nutrient needs. Just the opposite would be expected for calves from light mature weight dams. If the group of 1,200 pound cows wean 47% of their mature weight, 1,400 pound cows will wean about 44% of their mature weight. In comparisons, the 1,000 pound cow of similar milk production would wean of about 49% of their mature weight. Remember, these calculations are based on cows being managed on the same resource base in the same environment. Using the percentages above, it calculates that 1,400 pound cows wean about 616 pound calves, 1,200 cows wean 564 pound calves and 1,000 lb cows wean 490 pound calves. All groups of cows on the same fixed resource base, 85% of the cows that are exposed to a bull during the breeding season wean a calf. Gross pay weigh at weaning for each of the groups would calculate to 47,432 pounds, 47,940 pounds, and 46,550 pounds for the group of 1,400 pound, 1,200 pound, and 1,000 pound mature weight cows.

If 500 pound calves sell for $100/cwt and there is a $5/cwt price slide, 616 pound calves sell for $94.20/cwt, 564 pound calves sell for $96.80 and of course, 490 pound calves sell for $100.50/cwt. There likely needs to be a discount for frame. Too much frame or not enough. The calves from large mature weight female will be discounted another $0.50 and calves from the small mature weight females will be discounted another $1.50/cwt. This discount seems to make sense as frame impacts carcass weight at which they will grade USDA Choice. The question might be should both large and frame size be discounted equally. Gross sale dollars generated from the sale of calves from 1,400 pound cows would be $44,444, calves from 1,200 pound cows would generate $46,406 , and calves from 1,000 pound cows would generate $46,085.

The above calculations do illustrate the importance of weaning weight and reproductive rate. Can a producer continue to drive weaning weight up at the expense of weaning rate.

An extra calf to sell appears more important than extra weaning weight per calf. If the genetic trends continue in the direction they have been, how does a producer maintain the genetic package that they have worked so hard to fit their resources and environment? The idea is to help you keep your eye on the target of what genetics package fits your environment and to make an attempt to relate the amount of revenue generate in a cow herds that differ in mature size managed in the same environment and resources.

[October 11th, 2010]
 
Relationship Between Cow Weight, Milk Production, and Nutrient Needs

Calf prices appear to be strong this fall. Because of high input costs, margin of profit for the cow/calf producer will again be narrow. Producers that continue to match genetics (mature weight and level of milk production) with feed resources, environment, and management system will be the ones that continue to enhance their profit potential. If moderation is your goal in terms of cow weight and milk production, it may be an increasing challenge to find the genetics to meet this goal. Breed sire summaries indicate that the genetic trends for growth traits, carcass weight, and milk production have increased over the years. It is hard to see how milk production and mature weight of commercial cow herds has not continue increased over time. In addition, it hard to see how nutrient needs of the commercial cow herd haven't increased over time as well. McMurray (Feedstuffs article, 2008) suggested that average cow weight had increased 322 pounds between 1975 and 2005. McMurray indicates that average cow weight (weight for cows at body condition score 5) in 2005 was 1,369 pounds compared to 1,047 pounds in 1975.

Maintenance feed intake is proportional to the animal's metabolic body weight. Metabolic body weight is defined as body weight to the 3/4 power (body weight3/4) which also describes the surface area and is representative of the active tissue mass or metabolic mass of an animal. So as cow weight increases, maintenance feed intake increases because metabolic body weight increases. Cows partition energy that they consume to body maintenance and growth, then lactation, and finally reproduction. In a low feed environment, cows with a high production potential would have limited energy left over for reproduction because they would shunt energy to maintenance and lactation and finally reproduction. In contrast, cows with low production potential (described as lower mature weight and daily milk production) in a low feed environment in theory would be able to shunt energy to body maintenance, lactation, and reproduction. A solution to increase energy intake for high producing cows in a low feed environment on a fixed resource base would be to reduce cow numbers (cow inventory). In a high feed environment, low production potential cows have enough energy to partition to maintenance, lactation, reproduction, and will likely put on condition. In this low feed environment and a fixed resource base, to limit energy intake of low production potential cow so they don't get over-conditioned would be to increase cow numbers.

If cow mature weight were fixed at 1,200 pounds and milk production varied from 10 pounds/day to 30 pounds/day, annual maintenance energy needs increase. As milk output per day increases from 10 to 20 pounds/day, annual maintenance energy needs increase by 8% (7,815 Mcal per year compared to 8,427 Mcal per year). The increase in annual maintenance energy of a 1,200 pound mature cow producing 10 pounds of milk daily is 16% less than the same cow producing 30 pounds of milk daily.

If milk output per day is fixed at 10 pounds per day and cow mature weight changes from 1,000 to 1,200 pounds or 1,400 pounds, annual maintenance energy needs increase 14% going from a 1,000 pound cow (6,803 Mcals annually) to a 1,200 pound cow (7,728 Mcals annually). Likewise, maintenance energy needs increase 27% between a 1,000 pound cow compared to a 1,400 pound cow (8,637 Mcals annually).

If a ranch unit has a fixed set of resources, the effect of mature cow weight and daily milk production can be used to determine the number of cows at the same milk output with cows differing in mature weight that could be managed on the unit. If par was annual maintenance needs in Mcals for cows with a mature weight of 1,200 pounds and daily milk production was 20 pounds, we could calculate the number of 1,400 pound cows producing 20 pounds of milk daily on a fixed resource base. Likewise, using similar information, we could calculate the number of 1,000 pound cows producing 20 lb of milk daily that could be managed on the same set of resources. If 100 head of 1,200 pound cows producing 20 pounds of milk daily could be managed on a fixed resource base, using the annual maintenance energy needs, about 90 head of 1,400 pounds cows producing 20 pounds of milk daily or 112 head of 1,000 pound cows could be managed on the same fixed resource base. If cows in each weight group had a weaning rate of 85%, 85 calves, 77 calves, and 95 calves would be weaned from cows that weighed 1,200, 1,400, and 1,000 pounds respectively.

This is only part of the profit equation. Profit of an enterprise is a complex set of relationships. Net income or profit is gross income dollars generated minus total annual expenses. Gross income in a cow/calf enterprise is pounds of calf sold times price ($/cwt). Pounds of calf sold is a function of weaning weight and the number of cows weaning a calf. Nutrition impacts both of those factors.

Breed differences allow producers to design genetic packages that best fits the feed resources of the operation. In turn, this should increase the profit potential of the enterprise. The next question is what is the difference in costs as cow mature weight and daily milk production are varied. You've got over half the battle whipped when you have a genetic package of your cow herd fitting the resources they are to be managed in, especially feed resources. If the genetic trends continue in the direction they have been, how do producers maintain the genetic package that they have worked so hard to fit their resources and environment? The focus of the article isn't to say light mature weight cows are better than heavy cows and high milk output is less desirable than low milk output. The idea is to help you keep your eye on the target of what genetics package fits your environment and to remind you of the major items that impact of the nutrient needs of your cow herd.

[September 13th, 2010]


Dr. Rick Rasby, Professor of Animal Science
Animal Science, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, Lincoln, NE
 
This is an interesting thread - again! The posts here are mostly factual, illustrating the point that cattle that are TOO big are, in fact, TOO BIG! - - for PROFIT OVERALL! But, curiously enough, there are still those uniformed producers who have not investigated the facts sufficiently enough to prevent their being dragged kicking, screaming, and making three tracks - still insisting that "- - they still pay by the pound, don't they!?" and opt for 1800# + cows because they have big calves! All other common sense and reasonably-determined evidence to the contrary is of no consequence in their sensible, fact-processing protocols!

I guess that we are all Sons of Adam! He didn't use common sense either - or Faith!

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":uxvbekia said:
This is an interesting thread - again! The posts here are mostly factual, illustrating the point that cattle that are TOO big are, in fact, TOO BIG! - - for PROFIT OVERALL! But, curiously enough, there are still those uniformed producers who have not investigated the facts sufficiently enough to prevent their being dragged kicking, screaming, and making three tracks - still insisting that "- - they still pay by the pound, don't they!?" and opt for 1800# + cows because they have big calves! All other common sense and reasonably-determined evidence to the contrary is of no consequence in their sensible, fact-processing protocols!

I guess that we are all Sons of Adam! He didn't use common sense either - or Faith!

DOC HARRIS
We all know that an 1800 lbs cow is to big and eats more than one should. But with my post, I was just trying to make others think a bit, as it isn't always as it looks. Just because the big cows had their head in the feeder when he was there doesn't mean they eat more.

In my opinion a 1300 to 1400 lbs cow is ideal. I don't want a 1000 lbs cow as you will get beat up when you sell themir offspring and we have been working to hard and long to get our cows to have depth of body, and length of spine, easy keeping and have some performance. By having all of this, your cows will weigh more than the great 1000 to 1100 lbs cow.
 
We worked all our calves today. That includes those from our 7 smallest cows that weigh about 935#. These calves looked like:
- One fat pig that is short. Plan to butcher this one off grass.
- One is a well balanced but a bit below average in size compared to the rest of the herd.
- The remaining five are very nice, average sized, bwf calves and we plan to retain the 3 that are heifers.

We do not see much if any correlation between weaning weight and cow size. Last year our biggest calf was from a small Simi x A heifer... She miked heavy and still bred back right away. Wish they were all like that.
 
Stocker Steve":20k5t7ek said:
...We do not see much if any correlation between weaning weight and cow size...

Steve, That statement sums up what I am seeing also and the key to this whole discussion. Once we discover this, if we can get the same size and quality calf from a smaller, more profitable cow then why not do it?

Thank you.

Jim
 
SRBeef":2jlzy6zz said:
Stocker Steve":2jlzy6zz said:
...We do not see much if any correlation between weaning weight and cow size...

Steve, That statement sums up what I am seeing also and the key to this whole discussion. Once we discover this, if we can get the same size and quality calf from a smaller, more profitable cow then why not do it?

Thank you.

Jim

I have to agree with you Jim.

But people like BRG have to produce what the commercial and registered people want. Brg has some very nice cows and bulls and it shows. I would be happy with his I think. I bet he has worked a lifetime building it.

Most of these people want a bigger bull to produce more pounds. I have heard and seen it alot in the last several years.Just because that bull is bigger they are thinking he will produce more pounds.

I told a friend of mine I would rather have the 1000-1200 lb range cows and he said he wanted a bigger cow than that to raise a bigger calf. Just because they are bigger doesnt mean they will raise a bigger calf. It is all about effeciency in your environment.
 
Registered Angus 10 1/2 year old cow, 5.83 frame (hip height 54"), body condition score of 5, weight is 1626. Her bull calf born 3-19-2009 weaned 766lbs on 10-29-2010

Registered Angus cow 7 1/2 years old, (no score when bought) hip height 52.5" , body condition score of 9, weight is 1540. Her heifer calf born 3-13-10 weaned 680lbs on 10-29-10.
Full sister to 7 1/2 year old cow but 1 year older, hip height 55 1/2, body condition score 7, weight is 1712. Her heifer calf born 3-19-2010 weaned 638lbs on 10-29-10.
1/2 sister to these 2 cows (same sire) 7 1/2 years old, hip height 52 1/5", body condition score of 8, weight is 1464. Her heifer calf born 3-13-2010 weaned 610lbs on 10-29-2010.

Same sire on all calves. Don't really see much difference in short and tall cows. Maybe the ability to achieve heavy muscling is better than cow size. I had a high 6 frame cow that I sold that had a #19 ww EPD and a +27.29 $E. Hard to keep bred but :lol: saved money on feed $E
Valerie
 
Don't you think the root cause of too large cows is utilizing the same sire for calves (big as we can get them) we intend sell and heifer to retain? Also we have a tendency to retain the larger heifers at sale time to ensure they are big enough to breed as yearlings. May be a reason to buy heifers vs. raise them yourselves.
 
Douglas":3h2v4o9w said:
Don't you think the root cause of too large cows is utilizing the same sire for calves (big as we can get them) we intend sell and heifer to retain? Also we have a tendency to retain the larger heifers at sale time to ensure they are big enough to breed as yearlings. May be a reason to buy heifers vs. raise them yourselves.
If they're bigger heifers because they're substantially older keeping the bigger ones isn;t a problem. If you buy heifers based on the same standards that you retain them all you've done is changed genetics
 
Douglas":33uulz02 said:
Don't you think the root cause of too large cows is utilizing the same sire for calves (big as we can get them) we intend sell and heifer to retain? Also we have a tendency to retain the larger heifers at sale time to ensure they are big enough to breed as yearlings. May be a reason to buy heifers vs. raise them yourselves.

Douglas, that is exactly the root cause of ever increasing cow size. In herds where maximum pounds
produced is a top priority and bull selection criteria is based on growth, you can go to the market with
steers that have extra pay-weight. The byproduct of the larger and heaver steers will be larger and heaver
heifers that will have the genetic capability to get large at maturity. All of our herd sires are of similar frame
size so that we will have control of our cow herd size. The bulls we offer for sale when used in a cross breeding
program will still produce pounds because of heterosis, but since they are not extreme, they can also help moderate
mature cow size because they are of a medium frame size.
DM
 
JHH":208hpo4n said:
SRBeef":208hpo4n said:
Stocker Steve":208hpo4n said:
...We do not see much if any correlation between weaning weight and cow size...

Steve, That statement sums up what I am seeing also and the key to this whole discussion. Once we discover this, if we can get the same size and quality calf from a smaller, more profitable cow then why not do it?

Thank you.

Jim

I have to agree with you Jim.

But people like BRG have to produce what the commercial and registered people want. Brg has some very nice cows and bulls and it shows. I would be happy with his I think. I bet he has worked a lifetime building it.

Most of these people want a bigger bull to produce more pounds. I have heard and seen it alot in the last several years.Just because that bull is bigger they are thinking he will produce more pounds.

I told a friend of mine I would rather have the 1000-1200 lb range cows and he said he wanted a bigger cow than that to raise a bigger calf. Just because they are bigger doesnt mean they will raise a bigger calf. It is all about effeciency in your environment.

It is NOT ALL about "...efficiency in your environment". Of course, no one with a modicum of awareness of business sense in Beef Production Management will argue about the importance of breeding and feeding efficiency on an invironmental basis. That is a given factor that is not debatable! But a very large factor in this specious argument of "Cow Size" and "Pounds" is the COST of PRODUCTION of the breeding herd - at the end of the year! Just receiving 'financial returns ' for produced progeny is NOT the entire story of Business Profit! In the many discussions that I have had with ranchers involving "Total Costs of Production" for the determination of Profit at the end of the year, the main 'stumbling block' in their thinking has been the fact that they ignore the costs of maintaining the breeding herd!

Large cows create large feed costs - pasture, hay, bedding, Vet. bills, INefficient conversion of nutrient feedstuffs, and how the pasture land upon which they graze can be utilized to the maximum optimum efficiency - of which it is capable! It is NOT just "Pounds of Calf Sold!" During these discussions it is difficult to understand how obstinate the thinking can be when the facts stare one right in the face!

DOC HARRIS
 

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