I had one of them there epiphanies this morning.....

[Warren Allison]

Young guy ( well, 40 something) called me last night and asked if he could buy me breakfast this morning. Said he wanted to pick my brain on some things. He has rodeoed since he was a teenager. Big ole boy, so he only does steer wrestling and team roping. I have sold him several heelers and a rocket of a doggin' horse over the years. Grew up on his grand dad's row crop farm. They have about 450 acres, and raised cotton, beans and corn. They never had cattle or hogs or any livestock except his horses , and his Corriente roping steers. Anyway, his grandad is retiring soon as the cotton is picked, and his dad or uncle don't want anything to do with the farm. So, Grandpa is turning it over to him. He wants to get into the cattle business, and wanted to see what I thought would be the best way for him to go. Wanted to know what I have done all these years and not lose my shirt. I told him the best way I have made money, and made the most money, and never had a loss, was in buying and selling. I said " But, I have been doing this for 60 years, and learn something new every day just about. No way to make more money than buying and selling, and you make your money when you buy them. But you got to do it a lot. Go to several sales a week for years and years. You have to make a lot of contacts." He said what he really wanted to do, was have cows and sell calves off of them. He is going to sell the combines, cotton pickers ( they have 3 of each), the bigger, 8 wheel tractors, the grain drills and planters, etc. They have 2 road tractors and lowboy trailers. He will get enough money to fence the hole place in with any kind of fencing he wants. And, it is all rich bottom land, and clean as a golf course. He said he thought about raising Corrientes. He'd know enough people in the business...stock contractors, rodeo producers, etc...to have a ready made market. I told him "Well, you know how much you pay for ropers, and that's about what the cos will cost you. Or closer to $700 and up these days..now that more and more people are doing what I have been doing...raising the polled, black beef calves off of them." But, I explained to him we were in a unique situation.... land not fit for anything else covered in 26% protein Kudzu, and access to high dollar black bulls. no feed, hay, fertilizer, wormer or vaccs inputs, etc. He then started asking me about all the cattle breeds. The continentals, the British, the Brahma composites, Waygu, etc. Which would be the best for him to get into. That's when this epiphany hit me. I told him when I was growing up, all we had around here was Angus and Hereford..like most places still are. I said in the late 60's Brahma, Simmental and Charolais, turned up, and by 1970 Santa Gertrudis and Chianina showed up. Then came the Brahma composites. Next came other continentals like Limms, Gelbeivs, Salers, etc. Next, people turned all the Continentals into part Angus. They all had their 15 minutes of fame, before the trends cooled off. The latest flavor of the month is the Waygu. Then it dawned on me: Might not be the fastest growing and biggest calves, but you can't hardly go wrong with the black baldies. Consistently, year after year, they will always sell as well as the Angus and Angus type black calves. They will be the highest priced per pound at weaning..even if they aren't the heaviset at weaning. Herf X Angus or Ang x Hereford...don't really matter. And down here, Braford x Angus or Brangus x Herford will do just as well. I don't see how a novice could go wrong doing that way. My epiphany was, after the first 300 years of LH, Corriente type cattle, the 1st three imports...Angus, Hereford and Brahma..have had the most impact on cattle in America than any of the other breeds. Our cattle industry would be just as strong, if the imports had stopped with those 3 breeds.

So, this is what I recommended he do, and I don't think I have steered him wrong, do you? They have already started fencing. As soon as all the crops are in, he is going to sow fescue, perennial rye, and sprig bermuda grass. There is a grant available for turning row crop land into pasture, that will pay for the initial seed and fertilizer. Same grant, or might be another, will pay for cross fencing a place already fenced in. He is going to check to see if UGA will still come out and plant that World Feeder Bermuda and Alfalfa pasture mix for free. Then after the equipment is sold, we gonna start buying cows. He is gonna get 50 Herefords and breed to Angus and Brangus bulls. and get 30 Brafords to breed to Angus bulls. He is going to get 30 Angus and 30 Brangus to breed to Hereford. 20 red Angus to breed to Black Hereford and 20 Black Herefords to breed to red Angus and red Brangus bulls. He will be able to eventually run 250 pairs on the place. After 2 or 3 calving seasons, he is going to see if he needs to narrow down the mixes, after he sees which combo, if any, stands out in performance. I am sure if he stays in it, and gains experience, he will experiment some with other breeds and crosses, but for now ,I think the plan is a safe bet. Oh, and he is going to get up about 50 Corr cows and a Corr bull, so he doesn't have to buy practice steers anymore.

 

[Stickney94]

In the upper midwest your advice would be looked on with a a raised eyebrow -- there is very little row crop land being converted into pasture. What little pasture does remain is being converted to row crops. I know a lot more operators in the last year that have sold all their cattle. And many have already ripped out the fences and tilled the pasture under. As one of them told me this spring "It turns out, row crop farmers only work about 6 weeks all year." haha.

 

[Warren Allison]

In the upper midwest your advice would be looked on with a a raised eyebrow -- there is very little row crop land being converted into pasture. What little pasture does remain is being converted to row crops. I know a lot more operators in the last year that have sold all their cattle. And many have already ripped out the fences and tilled the pasture under. As one of them told me this spring "It turns out, row crop farmers only work about 6 weeks all year." haha.

???? Raised eyebrows at my advice on what kind of cattle he should start with?!!! What does that have to do with changing row crops to pasture or vice versa?!!

 

[farmerjan]

@Warren Allison ...what @Stickney94 was saying was the raised eyebrows was not on the cattle... it was on the turning row crops INTO pasture since any usable pasture that can be cropped is what is bringing the money... and the income in rent to those not wanting to do it themselves.... for the land.

 

[Stickney94]

Yep what @farmjan said. Up here advising anyone to get into livestock over row crops would be heresy. Just a difference in regions. I can't comment on your cattle advice either as this region's markets for cattle are very different.

As I read your post I was like "why would you not keep the row crops!" haha. Again, regional differences -- nothing to do with your advice.

 

[SBMF 2015]

In the upper midwest your advice would be looked on with a a raised eyebrow -- there is very little row crop land being converted into pasture. What little pasture does remain is being converted to row crops. I know a lot more operators in the last year that have sold all their cattle. And many have already ripped out the fences and tilled the pasture under. As one of them told me this spring "It turns out, row crop farmers only work about 6 weeks all year." haha.

Yeah, I've been watching this happen since my grandpas generation started retiring. There are darn few guys my age or younger that want to make livestock part of their operation. Around here if you can keep from rolling a combine on it they row crop it.
It takes a special person who enjoys starting tractors in zero weather and numb fingers trying to thaw frozen drinkers. Not to mention mud, heat, freezing rain, sickness, cows out, building fences.
Maybe you just have to be crazy? I don't know, but I'm sure glad I am.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison ...what @Stickney94 was saying was the raised eyebrows was not on the cattle... it was on the turning row crops INTO pasture since any usable pasture that can be cropped is what is bringing the money... and the income in rent to those not wanting to do it themselves.... for the land.

Yeah I know that. But no need in raising eyebrows at me. I wasn't advising the boy to quit row cropping and fence it in...his grandpa is already doing it. That's what most row croppers do when they retire,,,fence it in and buy cows. Or sell it to real estate developers. These grants from the federal gvernment to turn farmland into pasture may just mostly be in this area. Part of the Soil Conservation programs. It is because crop farming destroys the land, where as grazing actually helps re-consititute it. Thise farm land here may have had cotton on it for nearly 300 years, where as the upper midwest maybe 100-150 years. But, this thread is about the 3 most important breeds to the cattle industry in America! Didn;t want it branch off into another topics..like so many threads do! @Stickney94 just needs to read the OP more carefully.)

 

[Warren Allison]

Yep what @farmjan said. Up here advising anyone to get into livestock over row crops would be heresy. Just a difference in regions. I can't comment on your cattle advice either as this region's markets for cattle are very different.

As I read your post I was like "why would you not keep the row crops!" haha. Again, regional differences -- nothing to do with your advice.

No where did I say anything about advising the boy to leave row cropping and raise cattle. That is a given. It is what retired farmers here always do. And our tax money is funding turning row crop land into pasture extremely well. It is part of a plan to stop the devastation row crops causes, and encourage the re-furbushing of the soil via planting grass and running livestock on it.

 

[Warren Allison]

ENOUGH!!! This thread is NOT about turning row crops into pasture! Never was...never will be...and no one is ADVISING anyone to do that. It is about the 3 most influential breeds of cattle imported here! In the words of Charlie Brown....Good Grief!!!

 

[Ky hills]

If that were the case it would be interesting to see what our cattle would be today, without the competition from the continental cattle. Angus and Hereford both tried to compete and a lot of those cattle became as big at maturity as the continentals.
I honestly think more people in other areas like here could benefit from Brahman influence.
It's like everything else if other breeds are out there then they's a good chance they gonna be imported and tried by somebody case in point the Wagyu. No idea where that's going.
I will add that around here Charolais and Simmentals have contributed quite a bit.
The Simmental breed has been and is hot here. People are buying those bulls to breed their Angus based cows to get bigger weaning weights,

 

[Brute 23]

That's very odd. From I have seen here, even leasing out farmland generates more than you can make in cattle.

I guess they will double dip and get some kind of crp deferred payment while raising cattle?

Moving from farming to cattle does not seem like retirement at all. These people should really looking into investing outside of agriculture to diversify a little.

 

[Warren Allison]

That's very odd. From I have seen here, even leasing out farmland generates more than you can make in cattle.

I guess they will double dip and get some kind of crp deferred payment while raising cattle?

Moving from farming to cattle does not seem like retirement at all. These people should really looking into investing outside of agriculture to diversify a little.

Well, cattle are a LOT less work around here, than say our northern neighbors and Canadians friends have to put in. Once it is fenced, you just have to cut and bale and get up hay a few times a summer. And the cost., Even a small place like his 450 acres ( and they may rent some land, too, I dunno) requires a LOT of expensive equipment. They will get a couple million dollars for those combines, cotton pickers, planters, the two Peterbuilts, I think 4 aluminum dump trailers, 3 low boy trailers, and several big 8 wheel tractors. They will keep a couple 100-horse or smaller tractors, probably one Hi-Boy for herbicide, buy a gooseneck cattle trailer, and a couple of flat beds, and a mower, tedder and baler ( or 2). It is fairly common here and more so further south, to raise 2 crops, so the row crop is a little more work here than further north. And yeah, most do have other investments...some even other jobs or businesses. South Ga farmers can and do sell their peanut allotments. and these programs to pay for seed, fertilizer and fencing make it more attractive. When my parents' neighbor, who row cropped all his life ( and most of mine til about 20 years ago) quit, it was when his wife retired from the carpet mill ( she worked to have insurance on both of them, mostly) . He had always had some pasture and 100 cows or less) and cut some hay, but he fenced in everything he had and bought about 600 cows. He said Ruby didn't care too much after working all day for riding around dusty fields seeing how the beans and cotton was doing, but they both enjoyed ( Until he died last Christmas) riding in the pastures of an evening, looking at the calves playing. But again, this thread has nothing to do with the pros and cons of raising cattle vs cotton or corn. And leasing your row crop land here is not a cash flow thing, and no guarantee what you wiol get paid. Farm land here, you pay 25% of the seed and fertilizer, and get 25% of what the crop brings. No paying you a certain dollar amount per acre in rent.

 

[Warren Allison]

If that were the case it would be interesting to see what our cattle would be today, without the competition from the continental cattle. Angus and Hereford both tried to compete and a lot of those cattle became as big at maturity as the continentals.
I honestly think more people in other areas like here could benefit from Brahman influence.
It's like everything else if other breeds are out there then they's a good chance they gonna be imported and tried by somebody case in point the Wagyu. No idea where that's going.
I will add that around here Charolais and Simmentals have contributed quite a bit.
The Simmental breed has been and is hot here. People are buying those bulls to breed their Angus based cows to get bigger weaning weights,

Thank you! At last, someone stayed on topic! ANd yeah, I agree about the other breeds. In fact, I started to tell him about a couple of other options today, but decided what I said is enough to digest at one time, and that these suggestions were safe. He has been bombarded with expert advice from others about every breed there is, including bison and water buffalo! And dairy! We gonna buy cows, not heifers for him to start out with. And I am not gonna buy for him. I am going to take him to see cows, and help him pick out the ones to buy. Explain to him why I think this cow would be good, this one not so good, etc. Giving that we are buying cows, I started to suggest considering a black Simm bull for the Hereford and Braford cows. And still might get one or some semen for some of those cows that first year. And, we already bought the Chi-Angus x Black Simm heifers the dude Clay helped over the 4th will wean next July. We are looking at a couple of years off, but once we get the first calf out of them, in 2026, I would have no problem selling them to him to use where he is using Angus and Brangus cows in his program. But for now, I don't feel like I have done him a dis-service, having him cut his teeth on the Ole Reliable, black baldies.

I think Brahma influence would be good in your area. Maybe not Brahma or F1'ss, but certainly composites and composite crosses, like Ultrablack and the increasingly popular Gert x Herefords. Starting to see a lot of BM cows being bred to Black Simm, SimmAngus, and Angus, too.

 

[Brute 23]

This biggest problem is see with your plan is an over emphasis on breeds. Who actually in the cattle business gives a flip about breeds unless you are a pure bred breeder.

Good cattle are always popular. Buy good cattle, raise good cattle, sell good cattle. Its that easy. Focus on the numbers and not the breeds.

 

[coachg]

I can't blame him wanting no part of row cropping. I have cousins on both sides of my family, one group in north Alabama and the other side down in lower Alabama. Cost of equipment, seed and fertilizer prices , repair costs , the availability of parts etc. I think you gave him sound advice on the type of cattle to raise . If I was south of where I am I would definitely think brangus or Brahma or crosses of them . I have no experience with corriente but Warren has some awesome success with his . .

 

[dave_shelby]

Happy to pick you brain without paying for breakfast.

I see more people going after Brahmin genetics here in VA. The old folks claim there was more OG and Timothy in pastures then and KY31 wasn't around 100 years back. So heat and fescue tolerance is a thing.

Beyond that everything is black now and we call them Angus.

 

[Lazy M]

This biggest problem is see with your plan is an over emphasis on breeds. Who actually in the cattle business gives a flip about breeds unless you are a pure bred breeder.

Good cattle are always popular. Buy good cattle, raise good cattle, sell good cattle. Its that easy. Focus on the numbers and not the breeds.

Agreed. The only purebred animals I own is the bulls.

No question angus, hereford, and Brahma are the most influential breeds in the US.. with the key being to keep the % Brahma as low as possible.

250 pairs on 450 acres? I'm not from your area, but that seems like way too many head for that much land without constant supplementation.

 

[Warren Allison]

This biggest problem is see with your plan is an over emphasis on breeds. Who actually in the cattle business gives a flip about breeds unless you are a pure bred breeder.

Good cattle are always popular. Buy good cattle, raise good cattle, sell good cattle. Its that easy. Focus on the numbers and not the breeds.

Uhhh, no...the breed is definitely the most important thing. Don't want Highlands down in central Florida, Or Brahmas up in northern Canada. 1st and foremost in importance is raising black calves. Might raise as good a red or white one as a black, but it will NOT sell for as much. It is gonna take him a while to learn a good Angus and a good Herford from bad ones. No need in him trying to learn a good Char, or Chianina, or Limousine, or shorthorn, or white park, etc, etc., from bad ones. People telling him about all these different kinds he "ought" to get is why he called me in the first place. Most everyone I know that is successfully in the cattle business, gives mega flips about what breed they have!

 

[Warren Allison]

Agreed. The only purebred animals I own is the bulls.

No question angus, hereford, and Brahma are the most influential breeds in the US.. with the key being to keep the % Brahma as low as possible.

250 pairs on 450 acres? I'm not from your area, but that seems like way too many head for that much land without constant supplementation.

No, down here the percentage Brahma most desired is 3/8ths. like Brangus and Braford to 50% like BeefMaster. Rule of thumb here in this part of Ga is an acre per cow. The highest priced brood cows or replacement heifers will be pure Brahma.

 

[Brute 23]

Uhhh, no...the breed is definitely the most important thing. Don't want Highlands down in central Florida, Or Brahmas up in northern Canada. 1st and foremost in importance is raising black calves. Might raise as good a red or white one as a black, but it will NOT sell for as much. It is gonna take him a while to learn a good Angus and a good Herford from bad ones. No need in him trying to learn a good Char, or Chianina, or Limousine, or shorthorn, or white park, etc, etc., from bad ones. People telling him about all these different kinds he "ought" to get is why he called me in the first place. Most everyone I know that is successfully in the cattle business, gives mega flips about what breed they have!

Keep diggin.