Huh? Comments, please

[cattle_gal]

The computer program that creates EPDs is a sophisticated, high level mathmatical program.

Oh that's rich. That programed into peoples head what to tell others who want to dig deep rather than except what they have been given? Is this kind of like Dumbing of America? I got the same response from the AAA. Computer didn't just get this equation from the hard drive by itself, humans need to make the equation.

Not to be rude, but you don't even seem to understand what EPDs do.

Hahahahaha that's funny. :roll:

How could you expect to understand the mathmatical formula that they use to create EPDs? Every breed association uses much the same formula; call your other breed association and ask them. Maybe they'll be nicer than the AAA people.

How can you act like you know all about the EPD's when you can not give nor do the foundations/program that go into making a EPD, but only give the final conclusion numbers of what they might mean. It doesn't take even a kindergardener to figure out that 80 is higher than 60. And that the lower the BW EPD the chances are that you may get a lighter calf if your cow is a bigger birth weight than the bull. Just because I don't like EPD's and don't reley on them doesn't mean I can not read and examine EPD's and look way beyond what other do. And yes I have used them in advertising and promoting what's he's so good in with in the breed. Have to appeal to the buyers on what they have been washed in to thinking is wonderful. Only those that came up with and use the EPD equation know what it entails.

I'd take them a copy of MARC's across breeds EPDs. That will give a basis for comparing Angus EPDs with other breeds. But be warned, you might not like the result.

MARC only has a few to cross with as you know, since you know your EPD's .

The Angus Association took all the BW, WW, YW's reported to the Association in 1976 (I think), averaged them, and called that zero when they started EPDs. But that doesn't mean anything; EPDs have been adjusted since then. The program that creates EPDs has been improved.

Am I correct in the AAA base is now between 70 and 77?

Explain to the bull buyer that EPDs won't tell him what a calf will wean at. EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They can't. If you breed a Charolais cow and a Jersey cow to the same bull, would you expect the calf to weigh he same at birth, weaning or yearling? The bull is only half the calf. You may think EPDs are no good, but, believe me, more and more cattlemen are recognizing their value.

More and more producers are not following EPD's also, those that have been let down. Depends who you talk with. Oh no I'm not talking about breeding x breed bull to y breed cow on what a producer wants to know. That can't happen. I'm talking about a producer buying X breed versus
Y breed of bull. The realistic scenario. A producer wants the best bull he can get regardless of breed. That's why there needs to be a total across breeds EPD/APD.

I hate to break it to you, but you're in the minority if you're mystifed about EPDs. Every breed association probably has a brochure that explains how their EPDs were created. Have you taken the time to read them? The Angus brochure that I prefer to hand out to bull customers who are not so comfortable with EPDs is called "Bull Buying Stategies to Improve your Herd." I'll look for it online and post a link for you. But you have to read it and try to understand what it says.

Frankie you yourself can't give me a equation nor the across breeds equivalent then you are mystified also. If you know the equation please get that to me then I will know that you know all there is to know about EPD's . If you would have read Yes I read the blah blah the AAA has and
it's just lots of words that don't tell me what I really want to know. Yeah I had that little book of bull buying they sent. That didn't tell me anything that I wanted know - the equation! It's like reading a government study that leaves all the important things out but has a lot written to think
the people are getting something worth while. Some of us want to know the nitty gritty not the fluff of it's a high level mathematical program and a- it's simple 80 is higher than 60. And if you want to improve this and that get this, but watch out not to get to high of this trait EPD of it will off set this. Well DUH.

CA? Chi-Angus? If so, you're getting hybrid vigor with that crossbred animal that you don't get with Angus. And you haven't identified what "high" YW means.

Yeah I'm getting traits that each doesn't have, and? I have no beef against the Angus breed it's self. If I did I wouldn't be using them. But improvement on them yes. It's common knowledge that the original characteristics of Continentals in general have more muscle, lower rib fat and fat and higher weight and low marbling, and that the original characteristic of British in general have higher marbling, higher rib fat and fat, lower muscling, and lower weight. So gee what happens when you put traits together through lineages and selection. An animal that's muscle, tenderness, marbling, weight, and low waste fat. CA is 2nd for the marbling gene. Why do I say original of Continental and British. Because we all know that there's been breed dipping in most all the
breeds that will call purebred. Lets see lets say the top 20% of breed is the start of the higher EPD which is about 80 and a couple of point higher at top 15% for a non parent and parent bull the last time I looked last spring. If you are wondering an EPD is not assigned to an Angus or the
offspring resulting from a CA bull/cow coming into the ACA until there is sufficient data on the future offsprings.

Now you're ranting. I consider myself a better than average Angus breeder, but know dozens just like me and I'm not at all concerned about Angus not having the highest EPD numbers. I'll bold this for you: There are no good or bad EPDs. Some people consider a milk EPD of 15 bad; personally, a cow with that works fine on my grass based program. If you're breeding Continental heifers, you might want a BW EPD of -2. Since I know the EPDs on my Angus, I can use bigger BW EPDs which usually correlate with more muscle and heavier WW and YW. EPDs are not a magic wand. They are a tool for Angus breeders to use. I'll bold this one, too: If other breed associations want reliable EPDs, get to work reporting data.

Ranting? Because things should be able to be put in black and white no matter what breed they are. Show what animal and line is better than others in different breeds. Some how you are sticking to just one breed EPD's. I don't care about one breeds EPD's. But I want true across
breeds information. I'm glad you strive to be good. Everyone should. But you tell me how I'm going to differentiate between breeds by just using your EPD alone? Can't. Have to use actual weights and ultrasound info through lineages. Unless the EPD's are consistent in a number of
herd mates. Milk EPD doesn't bother me. I've seen 5 and 7's grow good. BW is the only EPD that I will even go by. I've heard the phrase
there's no good or bad animal, so gee lets breed them up, mass produce. Yeah it's suppose to be the combination of dam and sire to get what you want. Hell if she/he is that bad sell her/him. Don't use it as stockseed as some do just because it has good lines in there.

Interesting. I've found that the commercial cattlemen who know the most about EPDs tend to be those actually making their living in ranching. They've embraced them as a tool to help improve their bottom line. The smaller, part time breeders who can't/won't pay more than $1200 for a bull are less interested in learning about them.

So what pray tell is a smaller breeder in your eyes? Tell you what try telling those breeders who have 400 plus cows that they are part time breeders and by relying on weights and ultrasounds of that line of bull and what their results were when they wean and slaughter that they are all washed up because they don't worship EPD's. I see more rich, got to fit in, with the "right" crowd" type people swarm over EPD's.

Your comment that the higher EPD cattle let you down is not logical or likely. Cattlemen do want hard facts. And the hard fact is that EPDs are not a silver bullet. There are no silver bullets.

Ok do you have any idea that you are contradicting yourself ? So higher EPD cattle will live up to what the EPD says, god no it just can't ever be wrong, but oh wait a minute EPD's can't be trusted totally so that high EPD bull you bought might not be as good a what the EPD says. Yeah
so were back to a crap shoot again on reading EPD's. Oh yes as long as high dollar bull has tons of offspring his accuracy will be just wonderful and his EPD's will change. And of course that high dollar bull's calves will all be in an area that will result heavier weights. Have to promote how awesome he is. That's in any breed. But will be far different than if high dollar bull's offspring were born and raised in the dessert conditions. A bull that is just as good if not better hasn't been proven for 2 generations because he had far less offspring, thus EPD numbers haven't changed and the accuracy is low and he just isn't a bull that is up for contention. Oh by the way it is very logical and is not only likely it happens. Not all of us can live in areas where cattle have grass on very little acreage. Thus a bull who looks good on paper with high EPD's who's offspring were also raised in good conditions make him a wow bull, but he now has
offspring in arid tough conditions, because the producer looked at the EPD's and thought that's what he needs to increase weight in his conditions so either AI'd him or bought a son(s), but gets calves that do worse than the bulls he bought from a seed producer who had similar conditions as his. What a great way for the big shots to get bigger and the ones that are really trying to improve don't get noticed. I went through a pen a Angus Bulls that was great looking from one breeder. There sale was the middle of the line sale 1,500 - 2000. High was $3,500. Yes full set of EPD's and lineage. And one sire that was a land mark for an actual REA trait passed through offspring. Another Angus breeder who had inferior cattle sold like hot cakes, He had lots of cattle and sires
that we high dollar raised in good conditions to have good EPD's. Both breeders had similar EPD's.

 

[ollie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I have a specific question for Frankie, Txag, Amazed, and any other die-hard EPD fans. I ask this honestly, and not with any intent to be a smart-aleck or unfriendly:

If you were searching for a replacement heifer or bull, and you had a choice between an animal that looked better, had better performance, and at least as good carcass data, but lower EPDs, and an animal that had higher EPDs but nothing else was as good, which would you choose? Add to this equation that the lower EPD animal's siblings had consistently ratioed better in the herd than the higher EPD animal's siblings. As you know, it takes a lot of data to move EPDs, and this scenario is very possible; indeed, I have seen it.

Well, of course, I cheat; we AI everything and generally don't use a bull until we've seen some offspring that peformed well on test. But I guess if I had to choose, I'd pick the bull with good EPDs. Research has shown over and over that EPDs are many times better indicators of a bull's potential than his own performance. And performance is very management related. "looked better" is in the eye of the beholder. EPDs take into consideration the performance of a bull's siblings. If I'm looking at cows, today I'd pick by pedigree. And this is all considering all the animals were sound, etc.

Part of this question included the scenario that the siblings HAD performed better, if you will read it closely.

 

[Frankie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

Sorry, Ollie, I answered too quick. We'll just have to disagree about using them improperly being the norm. Yes, everyone needs good, functiona, efficient cattle. EPDs can help you find those cattle.

BTW, I went to the Hereford link you mentioned. I may be missing something, but I read some people discussing EPDs. I like EPDs. If I knew more about Hereford EPDs, I might have joined the discussion. Discussing EPDs is like discussing a snazzy paint job on a new truck, or admiring the fancy leatherwork on a saddle, or a newborn Hereford calf. I can admire them without buying into them.

 

[Frankie]

I have a specific question for Frankie, Txag, Amazed, and any other die-hard EPD fans. I ask this honestly, and not with any intent to be a smart-aleck or unfriendly:

If you were searching for a replacement heifer or bull, and you had a choice between an animal that looked better, had better performance, and at least as good carcass data, but lower EPDs, and an animal that had higher EPDs but nothing else was as good, which would you choose? Add to this equation that the lower EPD animal's siblings had consistently ratioed better in the herd than the higher EPD animal's siblings. As you know, it takes a lot of data to move EPDs, and this scenario is very possible; indeed, I have seen it.

Well, of course, I cheat; we AI everything and generally don't use a bull until we've seen some offspring that peformed well on test. But I guess if I had to choose, I'd pick the bull with good EPDs. Research has shown over and over that EPDs are many times better indicators of a bull's potential than his own performance. And performance is very management related. "looked better" is in the eye of the beholder. EPDs take into consideration the performance of a bull's siblings. If I'm looking at cows, today I'd pick by pedigree. And this is all considering all the animals were sound, etc.

Part of this question included the scenario that the siblings HAD performed better, if you will read it closely.

Am I missing something? The performance of a bull's siblings should be included in the data used for producing a bull's EPDs. Doesn't matter if they performed better or worse, they were weighted into the calculation. :?:

 

[ollie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

Sorry, Ollie, I answered too quick. We'll just have to disagree about using them improperly being the norm. Yes, everyone needs good, functiona, efficient cattle. EPDs can help you find those cattle.

BTW, I went to the Hereford link you mentioned. I may be missing something, but I read some people discussing EPDs. I like EPDs. If I knew more about Hereford EPDs, I might have joined the discussion. Discussing EPDs is like discussing a snazzy paint job on a new truck, or admiring the fancy leatherwork on a saddle, or a newborn Hereford calf. I can admire them without buying into them.

I think most people that use epd's Frankie would agree that there is no GOOD epd, therefore you couldn't find good cattle with epd's only. Phenotypically there are other things that contribute to good functional efficient cattle. Volume , Length of spine, foot size, teat size, leg set,hair coat, etc. These things need to be addressed to find good functional cattle first then the epd's considered.

 

[Frankie]

Oh that's rich. That programed into peoples head what to tell others who want to dig deep rather than except what they have been given? Is this kind of like Dumbing of America? I got the same response from the AAA. Computer didn't just get this equation from the hard drive by itself, humans need to make the equation.

Do you understand how this message board works? I don't, but I know that it does. Are you a computer guru? Are you actually looking for the computer code?

Quote:
Not to be rude, but you don't even seem to understand what EPDs do.

Hahahahaha that's funny.

Oh, from your posts here complaining that EPDs won't tell you what something weighs, it's obvious that you don't know much about EPDs. You wanted to know what calves from a bull with an 80 lb YW EPD will weigh. That's proof you don't understand EPDs.

How can you act like you know all about the EPD's when you can not give nor do the foundations/program that go into making a EPD, but only give the final conclusion numbers of what they might mean.

I haven't said I know all about EPDs, but I for sure know more than you do. I did give you the foundation figures for Angus EPDs. Why are you ignoring it? The Angus Association averaged all the BW, WW and YWs reported in 1976 (or '77) and set that as 0. So what? That average is available to you in your sire summary. But those numbers mean very little, since adjustments have been made and the computer programs improved since the inception of EPDs. No, I don't know what the program consists of any more than I understand the computer program that runs this message board. But I know they both work.

It doesn't take even a kindergardener to figure out that 80 is higher than 60. And that the lower the BW EPD the chances are that you may get a lighter calf if your cow is a bigger birth weight than the bull.

I guess you failed kindergarden then because you don't seem to understand the basic use of EPDs: that they don't tell you what something will weigh.

Just because I don't like EPD's and don't reley on them doesn't mean I can not read and examine EPD's and look way beyond what other do.

Ah, you're so much smarter than the average bear. You are working very hard not to understand EPDs. There's no secret about EPDs. They are just what I've posted, nothing more, nothing less. If you can get someone to explain how the program works, you won't know any secret that is useful to you, as a breeder, than you know now. A bull with a BW EPD of 5 will be expected to produce calves weighing five more pounds at birth than a bull of the same breed with a BW EPD of 0.

And yes I have used them in advertising and promoting what's he's so good in with in the breed. Have to appeal to the buyers on what they have been washed in to thinking is wonderful. Only those that came up with and use the EPD equation know what it entails.

Interesting that you would use something you have no faith in to promote your cattle.

MARC only has a few to cross with as you know, since you know your EPD's .

Gee, you choose to use a minor breed that most cattle people don't use and complain because MARC doesn't include them in their computations. Poor you.

Am I correct in the AAA base is now between 70 and 77?

Base of what?

More and more producers are not following EPD's also, those that have been let down. Depends who you talk with.

We're talking to different producers for sure. because I see more and more people turning to EPDs. I can see people that you explain EPDs to being disappointed in the results they get in using them.

Oh no I'm not talking about breeding x breed bull to y breed cow on what a producer wants to know. That can't happen. I'm talking about a producer buying X breed versus
Y breed of bull. The realistic scenario. A producer wants the best bull he can get regardless of breed. That's why there needs to be a total across breeds EPD/APD.

Who says there needs to be a total across breed EPD? Just because you choose to use a minor breed doesn't mean the rest of the world should cater to your requirements. I'm very satisfied with the situation.

Frankie you yourself can't give me a equation nor the across breeds equivalent then you are mystified also. If you know the equation please get that to me then I will know that you know all there is to know about EPD's .

LOL! You are for sure a hoot! Tell me what knowing how the program for EPD works will help you use EPDs? You will still use them the same way.
A bull with a BW EPD of 5 will be expected to produce calves weighing five more pounds at birth than a bull of the same breed with a BW EPD of 0.

Yes I read the blah blah the AAA has and
it's just lots of words that don't tell me what I really want to know. Yeah I had that little book of bull buying they sent. That didn't tell me anything that I wanted know - the equation! It's like reading a government study that leaves all the important things out but has a lot written to think
the people are getting something worth while. Some of us want to know the nitty gritty not the fluff of it's a high level mathematical program and a- it's simple 80 is higher than 60. And if you want to improve this and that get this, but watch out not to get to high of this trait EPD of it will off set this. Well DUH.

DUH is right. It's pretty simple; you just don't like EPDs and have latched on to the fact that you can't find the program that you likely wouldn't understand anyway to "prove" they don't work. Sorry, but they do work.

Yeah I'm getting traits that each doesn't have, and? I have no beef against the Angus breed it's self. If I did I wouldn't be using them. But improvement on them yes. It's common knowledge that the original characteristics of Continentals in general have more muscle, lower rib fat and fat and higher weight and low marbling, and that the original characteristic of British in general have higher marbling, higher rib fat and fat, lower muscling, and lower weight. So gee what happens when you put traits together through lineages and selection. An animal that's muscle, tenderness, marbling, weight, and low waste fat. CA is 2nd for the marbling gene. Why do I say original of Continental and British. Because we all know that there's been breed dipping in most all the breeds that will call purebred. Lets see lets say the top 20% of breed is the start of the higher EPD which is about 80 and a couple of point higher at top 15% for a non parent and parent bull the last time I looked last spring. If you are wondering an EPD is not assigned to an Angus or the offspring resulting from a CA bull/cow coming into the ACA until there is sufficient data on the future offsprings.

Or you might get the worst traits of each breed by crossing them. You're ranting again, BTW.

Ranting? Because things should be able to be put in black and white no matter what breed they are. Show what animal and line is better than others in different breeds. Some how you are sticking to just one breed EPD's. I don't care about one breeds EPD's.
But I want true across breeds information. I'm glad you strive to be good. Everyone should. But you tell me how I'm going to differentiate between breeds by just using your EPD alone? Can't.
Have to use actual weights and ultrasound info through lineages. Unless the EPD's are consistent in a number of herd mates. Milk EPD doesn't bother me. I've seen 5 and 7's grow good. BW is the only EPD that I will even go by. I've heard the phrase there's no good or bad animal, so gee ets breed them up, mass produce. Yeah it's suppose to be the combination of dam and sire to get what you want. Hell if she/he is that bad sell her/him. Don't use it as stockseed as some do just because it has good lines in there.

You didn't hear the phrase "no bad animal" from me. You heard no bad EPD from me. And it's the truth. You have elected to use a minor breed and now are out here ranting because the rest of the world doesn't cater to your requests.

So what pray tell is a smaller breeder in your eyes? Tell you what try telling those breeders who have 400 plus cows that they are part time breeders and by relying on weights and ultrasounds of that line of bull and what their results were when they wean and slaughter that they are all washed up because they don't worship EPD's. I see more rich, got to fit in, with the "right" crowd" type people swarm over EPD's.

I guess "small breeder" depends on where you live. I'd call a small breeder 15-25 cows. As I said, the producers around here that actually depend on cattle for their living are the ones who seem most interested in EPDs. I don't have any rich cattle producers in my area, I'm afraid.

Ok do you have any idea that you are contradicting yourself ? So higher EPD cattle will live up to what the EPD says, god no it just can't ever be wrong, but oh wait a minute EPD's can't be trusted totally so that high EPD bull you bought might not be as good a what the EPD says.

You have not defined what "higher EPD" cattle are. Obviously you don't understand how EPDs work, so you can't really say if they work or not. EPDs are based on data in the Angus database. As more information comes available, EPDs may change. I've seen bulls EPDs go up as well as down. But then I'm pretty picky about the bulls I use.

Yeah so were back to a be nice shoot again on reading EPD's. Oh yes as long as high dollar bull has tons of offspring his accuracy will be just wonderful and his EPD's will change. And of course that high dollar bull's calves will all be in an area that will result heavier weights. Have to promote how awesome he is. That's in any breed. But will be far different than if high dollar bull's offspring were born and raised in the dessert conditions. A bull that is just as good if not better hasn't been proven for 2 generations because he had far less offspring, thus EPD numbers haven't changed and the accuracy is low and he just isn't a bull that is up for contention. Oh by the way it is very logical and is not only likely it happens. Not all of us can live in areas where cattle have grass on very little acreage. Thus a bull who looks good on paper with high EPD's who's offspring were also raised in good conditions make him a wow bull, but he now has
offspring in arid tough conditions, because the producer looked at the EPD's and thought that's what he needs to increase weight in his conditions so either AI'd him or bought a son(s), but gets calves that do worse than the bulls he bought from a seed producer who had similar conditions as his.

I explained this once, but I'll put it in bold since you have such a problem: EPDs are based on contemporary groupings. A contemporary group (you would know this if you had bothered to read EPD literature) is a group of at least two calves, born within 90 days of each other and raised under similar conditions. Thus, your claim that calves raised in lush pasture conditions or desert conditions would skew EPDs is inaccurate. Want to try again?

What a great way for the big shots to get bigger and the ones that are really trying to improve don't get noticed. I went through a pen a Angus Bulls that was great looking from one breeder. There sale was the middle of the line sale 1,500 - 2000. High was $3,500. Yes full set of EPD's and lineage. And one sire that was a land mark for an actual REA trait passed through offspring. Another Angus breeder who had inferior cattle sold like hot cakes, He had lots of cattle and sires
that we high dollar raised in good conditions to have good EPD's. Both breeders had similar EPD's.

I think you're proving my point here, though your ranting is a bit hard to understand sometimes. Both breeders had similar EPDs, so what makes one breeder's cattle "inferior?" Did they have bad hair?

I don't consider raising good Angus cattle a competition. I'm not trying to compete with the "big shots" in the Angus business. There's a good demand for good Angus bulls and cows. I'm not always pleased by what my animals bring at a sale, but I trust the buyers to recognize good genetics. If they don't like my cattle, it's generally my fault and I'll do better next time. I do appreciate the large breeders who are willing to step out and prove new genetics so I can comfortably use them.

 

[Frankie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

Sorry, Ollie, I answered too quick. We'll just have to disagree about using them improperly being the norm. Yes, everyone needs good, functiona, efficient cattle. EPDs can help you find those cattle.

BTW, I went to the Hereford link you mentioned. I may be missing something, but I read some people discussing EPDs. I like EPDs. If I knew more about Hereford EPDs, I might have joined the discussion. Discussing EPDs is like discussing a snazzy paint job on a new truck, or admiring the fancy leatherwork on a saddle, or a newborn Hereford calf. I can admire them without buying into them.

I think most people that use epd's Frankie would agree that there is no GOOD epd, therefore you couldn't find good cattle with epd's only. Phenotypically there are other things that contribute to good functional efficient cattle. Volume , Length of spine, foot size, teat size, leg set,hair coat, etc. These things need to be addressed to find good functional cattle first then the epd's considered.

I'd agree there are no "good" or "bad" EPDs. And I'd never try to select my cattle by EPD alone. But once I find an animal I like, if their EPDs don't meet my requirements, I won't buy it. This has been posted on this board over and over, but I can do it again: EPDs are a tool to help breeders improve their cattle herds. Nothing more; nothing less.

 

[ollie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

Sorry, Ollie, I answered too quick. We'll just have to disagree about using them improperly being the norm. Yes, everyone needs good, functiona, efficient cattle. EPDs can help you find those cattle.

BTW, I went to the Hereford link you mentioned. I may be missing something, but I read some people discussing EPDs. I like EPDs. If I knew more about Hereford EPDs, I might have joined the discussion. Discussing EPDs is like discussing a snazzy paint job on a new truck, or admiring the fancy leatherwork on a saddle, or a newborn Hereford calf. I can admire them without buying into them.

I think most people that use epd's Frankie would agree that there is no GOOD epd, therefore you couldn't find good cattle with epd's only. Phenotypically there are other things that contribute to good functional efficient cattle. Volume , Length of spine, foot size, teat size, leg set,hair coat, etc. These things need to be addressed to find good functional cattle first then the epd's considered.

I'd agree there are no "good" or "bad" EPDs. And I'd never try to select my cattle by EPD alone. But once I find an animal I like, if their EPDs don't meet my requirements, I won't buy it. This has been posted on this board over and over, but I can do it again: EPDs are a tool to help breeders improve their cattle herds. Nothing more; nothing less.

That my friend Frankie is what I find wrong with the Hereford thread. They started the process at the wrong end of the decision making process.Phenotype then use epd's to cull with.

 

[Frankie]

I'll take time to look at it, Ollie. But I don't think EPDs are eliminating the competition in the Angus business.

Frankie you know full well the value of the writen and spoken word . You also know that I didn't say that epd's are eliminating the competition in the Angus business or any other business. What I did say was using epd's improperly (which is the normal way of using them) will put you out of business. Good, functional,efficient cattle and being a low cost producer is what will keep you in the business.

Sorry, Ollie, I answered too quick. We'll just have to disagree about using them improperly being the norm. Yes, everyone needs good, functiona, efficient cattle. EPDs can help you find those cattle.

BTW, I went to the Hereford link you mentioned. I may be missing something, but I read some people discussing EPDs. I like EPDs. If I knew more about Hereford EPDs, I might have joined the discussion. Discussing EPDs is like discussing a snazzy paint job on a new truck, or admiring the fancy leatherwork on a saddle, or a newborn Hereford calf. I can admire them without buying into them.

I think most people that use epd's Frankie would agree that there is no GOOD epd, therefore you couldn't find good cattle with epd's only. Phenotypically there are other things that contribute to good functional efficient cattle. Volume , Length of spine, foot size, teat size, leg set,hair coat, etc. These things need to be addressed to find good functional cattle first then the epd's considered.

I'd agree there are no "good" or "bad" EPDs. And I'd never try to select my cattle by EPD alone. But once I find an animal I like, if their EPDs don't meet my requirements, I won't buy it. This has been posted on this board over and over, but I can do it again: EPDs are a tool to help breeders improve their cattle herds. Nothing more; nothing less.

That my friend Frankie is what I find wrong with the Hereford thread. They started the process at the wrong end of the decision making process.Phenotype then use epd's to cull with.

Ollie, when are you going to understand that you don't run the world? IMO, those guys were having a discussion about some cattle. They chose to discuss EPDs. They might have chosen to discuss pedigrees, goggle eyed Herefords, cancer eye, whatever..... But you point to the discussion as proof that people are using EPDs the wrong way. When I look at a purebred sale catalog, I look at pedigrees, then EPDs, because that's the information I've got. When I get to the sale, I check out the cows that I've marked that I feel might work in my herd. If the cow doesn't have all the qualities I'm looking for, she's not going home with me.

 

[ollie]

Sorry to agitate you Frankie. Simply my opinion. I was afraid for a minute there we were about to agree.

 

[Frankie]

I was afraid for a minute there we were about to agree.

Scary thought, huh?

 

[dun]

They started the process at the wrong end of the decision making process.Phenotype then use epd's to cull with.

How do you use phenotype when all you have are names and registration numbers? Until you actually lay eyes on them all you have to work with is EPDs, and in some cases YFS, pelvic, ratios, actual weights, etc. Why not do the preliminary work with what you have at end first, then use the next set of tools available?

dun

 

[ollie]

They started the process at the wrong end of the decision making process.Phenotype then use epd's to cull with.

How do you use phenotype when all you have are names and registration numbers? Until you actually lay eyes on them all you have to work with is EPDs, and in some cases YFS, pelvic, ratios, actual weights, etc. Why not do the preliminary work with what you have at end first, then use the next set of tools available?

dun

I have seen pictures of your cows. I know that you are awful lucky or you also know what a good efficient functional cow is. You would also know that you can wear out a new vehicle hunting the same set of cows that you have now. There is a million of them with the epd's you would have if they were registerd stock. I think your question is rhetorical.

 

[dun]

Probably half of those are bought as heifers. I had the data on them weeks before I had the opportunity to actaully see them. Typically out of several hundred heifers there will be maybe a dozen that fall into my EPD, and other number selection criteria. Then we go and look at them and knock it down to a couple, sometimes none.
I guess I'm just lucky.
So far the only bought heifer we were disappointed in doesn't shed out so she alwasy looks rough. She raises a good calf, the very early calf that I mentioned in the teeny calf post, breeds back first service and carries good condition, maybe a little heavier then I like, but she looks ratty all the time.

dun

 

[ollie]

Probably half of those are bought as heifers. I had the data on them weeks before I had the opportunity to actaully see them. Typically out of several hundred heifers there will be maybe a dozen that fall into my EPD, and other number selection criteria. Then we go and look at them and knock it down to a couple, sometimes none.
I guess I'm just lucky.
So far the only bought heifer we were disappointed in doesn't shed out so she alwasy looks rough. She raises a good calf, the very early calf that I mentioned in the teeny calf post, breeds back first service and carries good condition, maybe a little heavier then I like, but she looks ratty all the time.

dun

Are you saying then that the first selection criteria you put on your replacement heifers that you buy, behind breed choice, is epd's?

 

[9 ER]

This is great! You guys really get fired up about EPD's. Yall are going to break your Quote button if yall are not careful.

 

[ollie]

This is great! You guys really get fired up about EPD's. Yall are going to break your Quote button if yall are not careful.

It may be fun for you 9er but my face is in such a grimis that I could bite the back of my head!

 

[dun]

Are you saying then that the first selection criteria you put on your replacement heifers that you buy, behind breed choice, is epd's?

If that's all I have to work with, yes it is.

dun

 

[jt]

i am pretty simple minded when it comes to these things, (not by choice but abilities) but to me epd's are nothing more than another bit of info that i can get on the cattle i am looking at.

it doesnt matter whether you are buying cattle or cars or what, you usually want all the info you can get on the product.

2 used cars with the same miles and age and looks, except one was driven by a little old lady and the other buy a lead foot hotrodder.. which one do you think you want? just more info to help you make the decision... and to me that is all epds are, and if that is all you can get is epds, then so be it. i see that as better than nothing. i know that is not going to be the case hardly ever, but all i am trying to say is it is another bit of info, and am saying it without ranking it. i will reject a cow on not only epds, but also looks, pedigree, etc etc. it is a package deal. the cow has to pass them all.



jt