Huh? Comments, please

[Frankie]

I cut this from the website below:

"Our goal is to change our present evaluation system to better parallel the numbers produced by the Angus breed. Why Angus? Simply put, they are the number one breed Maine-Anjou cattle are compared to in commercial operations. You must understand that when these changes are made it will not change the ranking of any Maine-Anjou bull. In other words, if a bull is presently ranked in the 56th percentile for weaning weight, that same bull would be ranked in the 56th percentile under the new system. I hesitate to put the following comparison in print, but it will provide you with an example of our goal. At this time, we are still in the research phase, so please realize our end product is not yet set. Our goal is to have the project completed and in place for fall run of data.

If we meet our projected timeline, you will see significant differences in the numbers presented in the 2005 Sire Summary, along with any number you may research on the Maine-Anjou Web site. Again, our goal will be to add or subtract pounds from individual categories on all animals in the Maine-Anjou system. Each animal will be treated the same, thus not changing any percentile rating."

http://www.maine-anjou.org/hq.html

This bothers me. I know each breed maintains their own EPD database, but I have to admit this is a new one on me. Do you think/know other breeds have done this to be competitive with Angus. Is this why some cattlemen don't believe in EPDs?

 

[ollie]

Why would it bother you for your breed to be the standard. It's certainly not the problem I have with epd's.

 

[cattle_gal]

Do you think/know other breeds have done this to be competitive with Angus. Is this why some cattlemen don't believe in EPDs?

Yes and Yes. Alot of breeds want to have the EPD number mean the same across the board for no matter what breed. If we take a Angus bull that is say 80 YW and we take another breed that is a 70 YW. Breeders want to know how to correlate who is better. But if other breeds don't know what the 80 YW stands for they can't adjust. Example: 80 YW what exactly is 80 YW anyway. What is the base for each EPD trait. Can't give a weight.

In the Angus breed say a 112 was a top YW EPD bull, but if it was a MA or a CA bull they may have a 124 YW if it tried to use the Angus EPD formula. Making the top Angus bulls not top any more. It is a hot hot topic with the BIF and various breed associations to get the numbers meaning the same for all breeds, but it won't happen, not soon anyway.

 

[ollie]

I would think the Angus Association welcome the new data points and try to incorporate them into the system. If they do then they have my utmost respect. I am editing to say all of the above is tongue n cheek.

 

[Frankie]

Why would it bother you for your breed to be the standard. It's certainly not the problem I have with epd's.

Doesn't bother me for Angus to be the standard. We've worked hard for that to happen. The price of Angus bulls continues to rise every year. I keep thinking some other breed will come along and compete, but they don't seem to be able to do that, at least in my area.

 

[Frankie]

Yes and Yes. Alot of breeds want to have the EPD number mean the same across the board for no matter what breed. If we take a Angus bull that is say 80 YW and we take another breed that is a 70 YW. Breeders want to know how to correlate who is better. But if other breeds don't know what the 80 YW stands for they can't adjust. Example: 80 YW what exactly is 80 YW anyway. What is the base for each EPD trait. Can't give a weight.

Apparently the Maines can "adjust." From what I read at the site I mentioned, they plan to add pounds to their EPDs to match Angus. Personally, I think they're fooling themselves if they think that's going to dramatically increase the demand for Maine bulls. But what do I know? IMO, you and the Maine people aren't giving enough credit to commercial cattlemen. When I talk to guys who come here to buy bulls or at bull sales, they seem to understand EPDs and know how use them. MARC has created across breed EPDs. Is anyone using them?

EPDs will never, ever tell you what an animal will weigh! What is an 80 YW? As a number, setting there, it's nothing. But a bull with an 80 YW EPD would be EXPECTED to sire calves that weigh 40 more pounds as a yearling than a bull with a YW EPD of 40. Very simple concept. I've never understood why people try to make it more complicated.

In the Angus breed say a 112 was a top YW EPD bull, but if it was a MA or a CA bull they may have a 124 YW if it tried to use the Angus EPD formula. Making the top Angus bulls not top any more. It is a hot hot topic with the BIF and various breed associations to get the numbers meaning the same for all breeds, but it won't happen, not soon anyway.

First of all, the Angus Association doesn't use a special formula for their EPDs. I think all breeds use similar formulas. Angus have been doing it longer and have more data than other breeds. IMO, some breed associations are missing the boat. It's not the numbers; it's the cattle behind the numbers. Angus didn't always have the EPD numbers they have today. When they started, the average was 0. We've worked hard to improve those numbers, as can any breed that has breeders willing to work at it. Some breeds have improved; some apparently prefer to take short cuts.

BTW, I think 133 is the highest YW in the Angus breed. I can well remember when GT Maximum was the only bull to have a YW EPD above 100. Now there are many bulls.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

The Hereford breed began using EPDs in 1977 if I recall correctly. The current breed average YW is 59 at this time. There are now also a number of Hereford bulls with YW EPDs over a hundred. I remember one Canadian bull that had somewhere in the vicinity of 150 for a while, but as the accuracies grew, the EPD dropped like a rock on that one. What is the average Angus YW EPD?

 

[Frankie]

The Hereford breed began using EPDs in 1977 if I recall correctly. The current breed average YW is 59 at this time. There are now also a number of Hereford bulls with YW EPDs over a hundred. I remember one Canadian bull that had somewhere in the vicinity of 150 for a while, but as the accuracies grew, the EPD dropped like a rock on that one. What is the average Angus YW EPD?

According to my ABS catalog, the average YW EPD for Angus is 67. The YW EPD for the old Max bull stayed right around 100 for years. It would go to 101 for one sire summary, then drop to 99 for a sire summary. It's 105 in my last sire summary, with an accuracy of .97. He has over 5,000 daughters in production, so his EPDs are not likely to change much.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

The Hereford breed began using EPDs in 1977 if I recall correctly. The current breed average YW is 59 at this time. There are now also a number of Hereford bulls with YW EPDs over a hundred. I remember one Canadian bull that had somewhere in the vicinity of 150 for a while, but as the accuracies grew, the EPD dropped like a rock on that one. What is the average Angus YW EPD?

According to my ABS catalog, the average YW EPD for Angus is 67. The YW EPD for the old Max bull stayed right around 100 for years. It would go to 101 for one sire summary, then drop to 99 for a sire summary. It's 105 in my last sire summary, with an accuracy of .97. He has over 5,000 daughters in production, so his EPDs are not likely to change much.

Kind of like Keynote 20X, although 20X is around the 117 area.

 

[ollie]

Why would it bother you for your breed to be the standard. It's certainly not the problem I have with epd's.

Doesn't bother me for Angus to be the standard. We've worked hard for that to happen. The price of Angus bulls continues to rise every year. I keep thinking some other breed will come along and compete, but they don't seem to be able to do that, at least in my area.

This bothers me.

Wouldn't you agree the other breeds making Angus epd's their basis makes Angus the standard?

 

[Frankie]

Why would it bother you for your breed to be the standard. It's certainly not the problem I have with epd's.

Doesn't bother me for Angus to be the standard. We've worked hard for that to happen. The price of Angus bulls continues to rise every year. I keep thinking some other breed will come along and compete, but they don't seem to be able to do that, at least in my area.

This bothers me.

Wouldn't you agree the other breeds making Angus epd's their basis makes Angus the standard?

I'm not bothered by other breeds making Angus the standard. With the numbers of Angus out there, they should be pointed to as the standard. I'm bothered by what I see as manipulating the numbers to make a breed's EPDs look better. A lot of breeders (not just Angus breeders) spend their time and money reporting data to make their breed's EPDs as accurate as possible. IMO, this undermines the entire EPD system, though I doubt it will make a lot of difference in the long run. People who have learned to use EPDs will likely continue to do so; those that are looking for another excuse to poo poo them, will do so.

 

[txag]

I'm bothered by what I see as manipulating the numbers to make a breed's EPDs look better.

maybe i misinterpreted the article or maybe i'm naive in thinking there's not some sinister plot by the Maine Assoc, but i don't think they're manipulating the epd's. basically what i understood is that they're trying to create "across breed epd's" for just maine & angus, so the epd's can be compared between the two breeds. the goal would be for bull buyers to be able to compare maine & angus epd's as equivalent. in other words, a maine bull with a ww epd of +16 can be expected to wean calves 16 lbs heavier than another maine bull with a ww epd of 0 and an angus bull with a ww epd of 0. right now, there's no clue how much heavier a maine bull with a +16 ww's calves should weigh when compared with an angus bull with a 0 ww epd. imo, it'll be like when the horned & polled hereford associations merged & the epd's were combined (except in this case, the epd databases will remain separate).

i don't see a problem with the initital changes in the epd's. my concern would be maintaing these "comparative" epd's as separate data is coming in to two separate databases.

 

[dun]

basically what i understood is that they're trying to create "across breed epd's" for just maine & angus, so the epd's can be compared between the two breeds.

It sort of makes sense since maines aren't onw of the breeds that is included in the BIF crossbreed EPD conversion charts.

dun

 

[txag]

one thing i forgot to mention earlier, is that of course, it still wouldn't work if you were looking at using the bulls on maine or angus cows. by using the opposite breed bull, he'd have the extra advantage of hybrid vigor.

 

[houstoncutter]

As a commercial cattleman I look at the numbers, it would be foolish not to. Having said that, I think many in the seedstock biz are wasting time chasing the epd numbers. Some of us are looking for bulls that will calve small and wean heavy. Also for bulls that are not hard keepers. As for myself I would never own a bull that was put in one the feed tests, been there and got that t-shirt. They look good on paper, but melt in the pasture. If the seedstock people want a good epd for the commercial cattleman, here it is: The "no feed epd", an adjust it for the different areas of grass in the country. Now that would be a useful epd

 

[dun]

If the seedstock people want a good epd for the commercial cattleman, here it is: The "no feed epd", an adjust it for the different areas of grass in the country. Now that would be a useful epd

Red Angus have the metebolic energy, or some such epd. The lower the number the less feed intake/nutirional intake.

dun

 

[txag]

If the seedstock people want a good epd for the commercial cattleman, here it is: The "no feed epd", an adjust it for the different areas of grass in the country. Now that would be a useful epd

geographic location is supposed to be accounted for somehow in the epd calculations. when sending in data, you also specify whether the calves were creep fed which also goes into the calculations.

 

[houstoncutter]

I thought maybe the Red Angus producers were working on something along those lines. Of course it would be nice to know if a replacement bull had ever had feed. They are hard to find these days but it never hurts to look for em. I sorta think God wanted cattle to eat grass, not feed or feed supplements. Sometimes I wonder if the feeding of our cattle might not be causing our high levels of cancer and heart disease

 

[cattle_gal]

Many associations have asked the BIF to make an across breeds formula. For years. This gets talked about at breed association meetings. I've also asked the BIF why and why not. But the AAA is the one not wanting to do so. I've even asked the AAA how they come up with the formulation. They say - It's complicated. Yeah good way to say - not telling. Only a few breed associations can cross reference with AAA EPD's. Many breeders I've talked to from various breeds have buyers always asking - what does that mean in Angus EPD's. Cattlemen who know the AAA EPD's don't know what the other association EPD's mean and ask how this correlates. But this would go for any associations EPD on what is what. What is the base to get this number.

When a bull buyer asks about a bull on what a bulls offspring may wean at when he has a 43 WW and the breeder says, 43 more lbs than a 0. Did the bull buyer get an answer. No. What the heck is 0. It's a question I've yet to see a real answer on. A very simple concept that doesn't let anyone know the begining of how the concept came to those numbers. So could I say that 43 EPD is 43 more lbs than a 0 which is 500 lbs? Probably not. If an EPD can not correlate to what a WW/YW is most likely to be, what good is it. Ah it's good to mystify the person to what is good and what is mediocer with out actualy saying what the good stands for. I've studied the EPD's of the Angus as I also buy the females and I watch closely the Wean and Yearling weight and correlate to there EPD's and there offsprings EPD's(alongwith the sire). And look at their siblings.

I've buy Angus cattle that were high YW EPD and carry a calf that also had high WW and YW EPD's and they were inferior in weight to the CA. That Angus calf had a highWW EPD and but was 100 lbs lighter in ADJ 205 than the CA's born the same day. Can't give and EPD that would mean anything. But then we get all the other breeds in there and that 100 lbs heaveir CA's may not be so great when compared to other bigger breeds. So this goes back to why the AAA is not to keen on an across breeds EPD. Apples to apples. Their high EPD cattle would not be on the top any more. It's all numbers. People get to facinated by formulated numbers and not hard facts. How simple it would be if the YW EPD was a weight number of what the estimated weight would be not a number that signifies nothing but so much from 0 what ever 0 is. If the AAA says that an EPD can not give a wieght estimate then it's all a blur of oh 100 plus EPD is the best over any breed. Why because people are familiar with the AAA numbers. Which is fine, if people know the AAA EPD's. Which like Ollie says the AAA is the standard.

I never under estimate the commercial cattleman because I am one. I know the boots they wear. Where conditions aren't easy and need to get as much out of their cattle with the least cost. Their the ones that reley on that once a year pay check to survive. I wish I could sometimes go play at breeders functions, but not something I can do or afford. I know a lot of commerical cattlemen that don't take EPD's to heart to much. Especially for me after seeing how much the higher EPD cattle let me down when I looked at EPD's and how the middle of the line EPD cattle were great- listening to the numbers jargon over the years of how good those cattle will be when they have such and such EPD. Of course, breeds should as much as they can get the sibbling information to their prospective association. Which I do for both the AAA and ACA and pay the yearly dues for both asssociations.

Theres honest and crooked in every breed giving in their information. This happend with a few of the females I got. Those cattle were the poorest doers and producers of calves, but yet they are the one of the big names that ahh cattlemen to buying there stock. But lose many each year also. Cattlemen want hard facts, wean and yearling weights and of herd siblings and what conditions they were raised in and what feed they got fed and how long and the siblings slaughter information. Things that an EPD is supose to signify, but doesn't do straight forward.

 

[Tod Dague]

I thought maybe the Red Angus producers were working on something along those lines. Of course it would be nice to know if a replacement bull had ever had feed. They are hard to find these days but it never hurts to look for em. I sorta think God wanted cattle to eat grass, not feed or feed supplements. Sometimes I wonder if the feeding of our cattle might not be causing our high levels of cancer and heart disease

I think it has more to do with age. We are living much longer now. The older you are the greater your chance of developing cancer heart dz and diabetes. The younger generation is just fat. Too much junk food and not enough activity.