cattle_gal":1uagca41 said:
Many associations have asked the BIF to make an across breeds formula. For years. This gets talked about at breed association meetings. I've also asked the BIF why and why not. But the AAA is the one not wanting to do so.
Years ago, other breed associations laughed and poked fun at the Angus Association while Angus breeders spent their time, money and effort to produce the data that makes up Angus EPDs. Now that commercial cattlemen understand and want EPDs, these same breed associations want to use Angus EPDs to build their own. If they want reliable EPDs, send in the data and create them. The Angus Association is refusing to participate (at this time) and that's OK with me.
I've even asked the AAA how they come up with the formulation. They say - It's complicated. Yeah good way to say - not telling.
The computer program that creates EPDs is a sophisticated, high level mathmatical program. Not to be rude, but you don't even seem to understand what EPDs do. How could you expect to understand the mathmatical formula that they use to create EPDs? Every breed association uses much the same formula; call your other breed association and ask them. Maybe they'll be nicer than the AAA people.
Only a few breed associations can cross reference with AAA EPD's. Many breeders I've talked to from various breeds have buyers always asking - what does that mean in Angus EPD's. Cattlemen who know the AAA EPD's don't know what the other association EPD's mean and ask how this correlates.
I'd take them a copy of MARC's across breeds EPDs. That will give a basis for comparing Angus EPDs with other breeds. But be warned, you might not like the result.
But this would go for any associations EPD on what is what. What is the base to get this number.
The Angus Association took all the BW, WW, YW's reported to the Association in 1976 (I think), averaged them, and called that zero when they started EPDs. But that doesn't mean anything; EPDs have been adjusted since then. The program that creates EPDs has been improved.
When a bull buyer asks about a bull on what a bulls offspring may wean at when he has a 43 WW and the breeder says, 43 more lbs than a 0. Did the bull buyer get an answer. No. What the heck is 0. It's a question I've yet to see a real answer on. A very simple concept that doesn't let anyone know the begining of how the concept came to those numbers. So could I say that 43 EPD is 43 more lbs than a 0 which is 500 lbs? Probably not. If an EPD can not correlate to what a WW/YW is most likely to be, what good is it.
Explain to the bull buyer that EPDs won't tell him what a calf will wean at. EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They can't. If you breed a Charloais cow and a Jersey cow to the same bull, would you expect the calf to weigh he same at birth, weaning or yearling? The bull is only half the calf. You may think EPDs are no good, but, believe me, more and more cattlemen are recognizing their value.
Ah it's good to mystify the person to what is good and what is mediocer with out actualy saying what the good stands for.
I hate to break it to you, but you're in the minority if you're mystifed about EPDs. I've explained them to you, as well as others, and you continue to say the same thing. Every breed association probably has a brochure that explains how their EPDs were created. Have you taken the time to read them? The Angus brochure that I prefer to hand out to bull customers who are not so comfortable with EPDs is called "Bull Buying Stategies to Improve your Herd." I'll look for it online and post a link for you. But you have to read it and
try to understand what it says.
[I've studied the EPD's of the Angus as I also buy the females and I watch closely the Wean and Yearling weight and correlate to there EPD's and there offsprings EPD's(alongwith the sire). And look at their siblings.
If you don't understand what EPDs are designed to do, how can you tell they correlate to their EPDs?
I've buy Angus cattle that were high YW EPD and carry a calf that also had high WW and YW EPD's and they were inferior in weight to the CA.
CA? Chi-Angus? If so, you're getting hybrid vigor with that crossbred animal that you don't get with Angus. And you haven't identified what "high" YW means.
That Angus calf had a highWW EPD and but was 100 lbs lighter in ADJ 205 than the CA's born the same day. Can't give and EPD that would mean anything. But then we get all the other breeds in there and that 100 lbs heaveir CA's may not be so great when compared to other bigger breeds. So this goes back to why the AAA is not to keen on an across breeds EPD. Apples to apples. Their high EPD cattle would not be on the top any more. It's all numbers. People get to facinated by formulated numbers and not hard facts. How simple it would be if the YW EPD was a weight number of what the estimated weight would be not a number that signifies nothing but so much from 0 what ever 0 is. If the AAA says that an EPD can not give a wieght estimate then it's all a blur of oh 100 plus EPD is the best over any breed. Why because people are familiar with the AAA numbers. Which is fine, if people know the AAA EPD's. Which like Ollie says the AAA is the standard.
Now you're ranting. I consider myself a better than average Angus breeder, but know dozens just like me and I'm not at all concerned about Angus not having the highest EPD numbers. I'll bold this for you:
There are no good or bad EPDs. Some people consider a milk EPD of 15 bad; personally, a cow with that works fine on my grass based program. If you're breeding Continental heifers, you might want a BW EPD of -2. Since I know the EPDs on my Angus, I can use bigger BW EPDs which usually correlate with more muscle and heavier WW and YW. EPDs are not a magic wand. They are a tool for Angus breeders to use. I'll bold this one, too:
If other breed associations want reliable EPDs, get to work reporting data.
I never under estimate the commercial cattleman because I am one. I know the boots they wear. Where conditions aren't easy and need to get as much out of their cattle with the least cost. Their the ones that reley on that once a year pay check to survive.
Interesting. I've found that the commercial cattlemen who know the most about EPDs tend to be those actually making their living in ranching. They've embraced them as a tool to help improve their bottom line. The smaller, part time breeders who can't/won't pay more than $1200 for a bull are less interested in learning about them.
I wish I could sometimes go play at breeders functions, but not something I can do or afford.
The AAA runs seminars across the us when a new EPD comes out; they don't cost much. Are you a member of your state Angus Association? Some of those hold very informative meetings on a regular basis. I belong to several Angus groups. The meetings are fun and often informtive. You state Ag university may have programs to help you understand EPDs. They may charge for lunch or something like that, but otherwise, they're a great cheap resource.
I know a lot of commerical cattlemen that don't take EPD's to heart to much. Especially for me after seeing how much the higher EPD cattle let me down when I looked at EPD's and how the middle of the line EPD cattle were great- listening to the numbers jargon over the years of how good those cattle will be when they have such and such EPD. Of course, breeds should as much as they can get the sibbling information to their prospective association. Which I do for both the AAA and ACA and pay the yearly dues for both asssociations.
Since you don't understand EPDs, your comment that the higher EPD cattle let you down is not logical or likely.
Theres honest and crooked in every breed giving in their information. This happend with a few of the females I got. Those cattle were the poorest doers and producers of calves, but yet they are the one of the big names that ahh cattlemen to buying there stock. But lose many each year also.
You're right, there are honest and crooked in every breed. But, again, I think Angus has the advantage just because of sheer numbers. While there are some big operations that I wouldn't buy cattle from, there are others who have been around for generations and plan to be for more generations.
Cattlemen want hard facts
Cattlemen do want hard facts. And the hard fact is that EPDs are not a silver bullet. There are no silver bullets.
... wean and yearling weights and of herd siblings and what conditions they were raised in and what feed they got fed and how long and the siblings slaughter information. Things that an EPD is supose to signify, but doesn't do straight forward.
The conditions cattle are raised in has nothing to do with EPDs. EPDs are based on contemporary groups. A contemporary group is a group of at least two calves, born within 90 days and raised, managed, the same.
EPDs are very simple. You have a set of cows. They are what they are. You have a management program and grass. They are what they are. EPDs will simply tell you that if you breed those cows to a bull with a WW EPD of 50, you should
EXPECT the calves from each cow to weigh 50 more pounds at weaning than if you bred those cows to a bull with a 0 WW EPD. That's it. That's what EPDs do.
I think there's always room for one more. Breeding good cattle takes a lot of time. When a young man (generally) shows up here wanting to buy Angus cattle and start a seedstock program, I will either him my best cattle and advice. We bought our share of sorry Angus early on because they were cheap. Today I encourage youngsters to buy the best they can afford (even if they have to buy fewer head) and start an AI program. IMO, that's the only way to be profitable in the Angus business.
