Horned Hereford -vs- Polled Hereford

[alexfarms]

Just a comment or two.
#1 Ever notice the horned breeders always attack the polled breed. Me thinks maybe they protest too much.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

#3 My grandfather used to say that running someone else down never made you 1 inch taller.

#1 I don't think I have ever seen a horned breeder go after a polled guy out of the blue. It always starts with a commercial guy asking the same old question, why horned? Why not polled? It's a no different question for me than, why Herefords? Why not Lowlines? or Brangus?. Can we help it if an honest answer is given? I know the answer if the question is reversed, and it plays into a question of competency than actual production reasons.

#2 It's always been that way since the the dawn of AI. If that makes the Polled superior, good for them. I can't recall too much to be excited about in the polled sections of the 1980's semen catalogs.

#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it.

"#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it."

So your gonna tell us all the truth? Prove it then. You show us one study or objectively collected volume of performance data that proves there is a significant performance difference between horned and polled Herefords. We all have our opinions and our loyalties, but on average, there just isn't any performance difference.

 

[SPH]

Just a comment or two.
#1 Ever notice the horned breeders always attack the polled breed. Me thinks maybe they protest too much.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

#3 My grandfather used to say that running someone else down never made you 1 inch taller.

Good points, there are guys that definitely fit #1. We're Polled breeders but Herefords are Herefords, wish the best to our fellow breeders regardless of horned or polled. We just prefer polled because don't like messing with horns but we do have some cows with a horn gene in their pedigree that we occasionally will get a horned calf out of it matched up with a bull with a horn gene too. There is nothing wrong with someone preferring one over the other. A good Hereford is a good Hereford regardless of horned or polled and those without a huge bias against one or the other can admit that when they see one.

#2 I wouldn't read too much into. AI catalogs are promotional material. If you strictly go by those to make your breeding decisions then that is being short-sighted. Most guys already know what bulls they want to use without needing an AI catalog to help them choose.

#3 Couldn't be a more true statement!

 

[Elder Statesman]

Just a comment or two.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

Some might answer that question with a statement you won't like. For instance, that is the only way a polled bull can get many cows bred, either in an AI lab or a 2 acre lot standing around the hay feeder, where the horned bulls can be found out on the range.

And if your grandfather liked #3, he wouldn't think much of your #1. "Always"??

As far as the original question and answers go, there are good and bad polled and horned cattle out there in the Hereford breed. It is just that the pool of "good" polled cattle is a lot smaller than the pool of "good" horned cattle. There is increasing number of folks trying to breed polled "horned" genetics on both sides if the line.

 

[alexfarms]

Just a comment or two.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

Some might answer that question with a statement you won't like. For instance, that is the only way a polled bull can get many cows bred, either in an AI lab or a 2 acre lot standing around the hay feeder, where the horned bulls can be found out on the range.

And if your grandfather liked #3, he wouldn't think much of your #1. "Always"??

As far as the original question and answers go, there are good and bad polled and horned cattle out there in the Hereford breed. It is just that the pool of "good" polled cattle is a lot smaller than the pool of "good" horned cattle. There is increasing number of folks trying to breed polled "horned" genetics on both sides if the line.

What size are these "pools" you're talking about?

 

[Aaron]

Just a comment or two.
#1 Ever notice the horned breeders always attack the polled breed. Me thinks maybe they protest too much.

#2 A simple observation. Check your AI catalogs. How many polled and how many horned Herefords?

#3 My grandfather used to say that running someone else down never made you 1 inch taller.

#1 I don't think I have ever seen a horned breeder go after a polled guy out of the blue. It always starts with a commercial guy asking the same old question, why horned? Why not polled? It's a no different question for me than, why Herefords? Why not Lowlines? or Brangus?. Can we help it if an honest answer is given? I know the answer if the question is reversed, and it plays into a question of competency than actual production reasons.

#2 It's always been that way since the the dawn of AI. If that makes the Polled superior, good for them. I can't recall too much to be excited about in the polled sections of the 1980's semen catalogs.

#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it.

"#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it."

So your gonna tell us all the truth? Prove it then. You show us one study or objectively collected volume of performance data that proves there is a significant performance difference between horned and polled Herefords. We all have our opinions and our loyalties, but on average, there just isn't any performance difference.

So unless a paid researcher confirms your understanding of the world, everything you or anyone else says is BS? I think I am beginning to understand what your all about now, AF.

 

[alexfarms]

#1 I don't think I have ever seen a horned breeder go after a polled guy out of the blue. It always starts with a commercial guy asking the same old question, why horned? Why not polled? It's a no different question for me than, why Herefords? Why not Lowlines? or Brangus?. Can we help it if an honest answer is given? I know the answer if the question is reversed, and it plays into a question of competency than actual production reasons.

#2 It's always been that way since the the dawn of AI. If that makes the Polled superior, good for them. I can't recall too much to be excited about in the polled sections of the 1980's semen catalogs.

#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it.

"#3. I have heard the same statement before. I don't think it applies when a person speaks the truth. But then maybe all of us horned guys are just lying to cover up our real problem. We have a horn fetish. That has to be it."

So your gonna tell us all the truth? Prove it then. You show us one study or objectively collected volume of performance data that proves there is a significant performance difference between horned and polled Herefords. We all have our opinions and our loyalties, but on average, there just isn't any performance difference.

So unless a paid researcher confirms your understanding of the world, everything you or anyone else says is BS? I think I am beginning to understand what your all about now, AF.

No. What I am saying is it is easy to let your loyalties blind you from the bigger truth. Your experiences may tell you one thing, but your experiences are small compared to the rest of the world. I have used both horned and polled and I have heard most of the arguments and they have all been due to a guy drawing conclusions based on a very small sample of experiences. If there were a significant difference in the horned and polled Herefords, it is a simple matter to add or breed off the horns. It only takes one mating to breed the horns off. There is nothing to back up your argument but talk, talk and more talk. Do you have anything to offer other than talk?

Here's an excerpt from an article in BEEF magazine:

"In 1996, Dr. Laki Goonewardene from Alberta and I collaborated on a project to compare the performance records of horned and polled Charolais and Hereford bulls. The bulls were kept at two test stations, one in Alberta and one in Saskatchewan from 1985-1993. We had access to the performance records of 578 Charolais bulls (329 horned and 249 polled) and 1,860 Hereford bulls (1,182 horned and 678 polled).

As shown in Table 1, we found very little difference between the horned and polled bulls in the traits that were measured. The polled Charolais bulls did carry significantly more backfat than their horned counterparts, but they were not different in average daily gain, adjusted yearling weight or in scrotal circumference.

The polled Hereford bulls in Saskatchewan had a significantly higher average daily gain compared to the horned bulls and tended to be larger yearlings. Polled Hereford bulls in Alberta also tended to have a greater average daily gain, but the difference was not considered significant.

Our findings were similar to other studies. Research by Lange in 1989 found no difference between polled and horned German Simmental cattle in growth, carcass yield, carcass composition, health and reproductive performance.

Work reported by Frisch and coworkers from Australia in 1980 - comparing various beef breeds - showed no difference between horned and polled crossbred lines in live weight, fertility and mortality rates.

 

[Aaron]

Spoken like a true polled man. I can't stress this enough, it has nothing to do with horns that makes the animal. I get that all the time. A horned animal crops up in a polled herd and the guy says, "you must really like that animal, it has horns". How dense can you get? Think back 30 years. What kind of cattle was the polled side pushing? Now, what kind of cattle did the horned side push? They were not one and the same.

 

[alexfarms]

Spoken like a true polled man. I can't stress this enough, it has nothing to do with horns that makes the animal. I get that all the time. A horned animal crops up in a polled herd and the guy says, "you must really like that animal, it has horns". How dense can you get? Think back 30 years. What kind of cattle was the polled side pushing? Now, what kind of cattle did the horned side push? They were not one and the same.

I don't know who you are quoting, but it sure isn't me. About 30 years ago, the hot bulls being pushed by the poweres that be in the breeds were the Titan, Tex Prime time, Explosion in the horned and Race and Knight Ryder in the polled. I'd say they were darn similar, in fact the big shots were using them in both the horned and polled sides. Now there were certainly members in both assn's that weren't caught up in the frame race and were using range type cattle. I don't know where you are going with a 30 year flashback, but the horned and polled sides were in a pretty similar situation competeing against the continental cattle. Most of the Lamplighter cattle that had been dominating the breeds for many years were bred up to the big frame bulls. But you can find cattle today in both horned and polled that have none of those hot frame bulls in them, if that is what you are looking for. For example the Feltons cattle and the Victor Domino cattle on the polled side and the Line 1 and the Lents cattle on the horned side. There are many others that are less prominent, but still out there.

 

[Carlos F.]

[URL=http://s1287.photobucket.com/u.../Youngherefordbull_0117_zps107a4bad.jpg[/img][/url]

The old commercial cowmen here always refered to the polled breed as" no balls, no butts, no bags"! It was very near the truth and like so many things is hard to live down. Only knew of 1 large herd of polled cattle that run strictly as range cattle. That was another reason that oldtimer's did'nt like the polled breed,needed to much care to survive here. These things are not so true anymore but like I said hard to forget some things.

I don't think its so true anymore either, but everyone has different opinions.

What's the pedigree on that bull?

 

[BMCC]

Carlos; that bull isn't registered, he is just a calf maker being used on commercial crosbreed cows. I will have to pull out papers on his ancestors to give exact details, but he is from Domino bloodlines. My point in posting photo was that the old saying of "Breed the horns off, breed the a$$ off" is not necessarily true. I don't like de-horning and this bull does it for me while producing consistent thick bodied calves.

 

[Carlos F.]

Thank you. I wast trying to find where the tail black hair came from.
We also get good steers from this bull (Argentina):

 

[BMCC]

Carlos, very nice bull, these bulls are examples of what in my opinion are the "right type" of beef bulls; low, long, deep, wide and easy fleshing. And no de-horning just makes a ranchers job easier.

 

[JWBrahman]

Thank you. I wast trying to find where the tail black hair came from.
We also get good steers from this bull (Argentina):

Nice bull, Carlos. Thanks for sharing.
:clap: :tiphat: :clap:

 

[JWBrahman]

Carlos, very nice bull, these bulls are examples of what in my opinion are the "right type" of beef bulls; low, long, deep, wide and easy fleshing. And no de-horning just makes a ranchers job easier.

Couldn't be happier with mine. Nothing wrong with using the horned with the polled, either. Mine is 3/4 polled 1/4 horned and he is as healthy as any F1.

 

[elkwc]

Carlos I like your bull and the picture of the bull that belongs to BMCC. You don't find many polled bulls like either around here. The only thing I would change is for the rugged country our cattle run in and the need to be able to cover country I would like to see 2 more inches of leg. These bulls have just enough. If bred to a small cow chances are the heifers won't. My thought has always been that unless I had cows that were too large of a frame size then I should purchase a bull with at least a frame score .5-1 higher than the cows. Which in my case would be a 5.5-6. I like the muscling and everything else. Like I said I've looked at several yearling to two year olds along with 14-16 herd bulls and have only seen a couple I liked maybe a little better and maybe two I would say is equal. Many of these have cost lots of money and been at the top of some of the current hot polled breeder's sales. So I can safely say the majority of the polled cattle in this area aren't equal to these two bulls. Hopefully with the money being spent to upgrade their herds some better cattle will start showing up. I do have two herds to go look at that used to be straight horned and are now a combination. I know the horned cattle from both have been good for years and so expect the same from their polled cattle. If I was seeing polled cattle of the quality of these bulls priced at commercial prices I would have already purchased a polled bull. But I'm not going to pay 8,000 thousand or more just to have a polled bull when I can buy a comparable angus or Horned bull for a lot less.


quote="Carlos F."]Thank you. I wast trying to find where the tail black hair came from.
We also get good steers from this bull (Argentina):
[/quote]

 

[Carlos F.]

Carlos I like your bull and the picture of the bull that belongs to BMCC. You don't find many polled bulls like either around here. The only thing I would change is for the rugged country our cattle run in and the need to be able to cover country I would like to see 2 more inches of leg. These bulls have just enough. If bred to a small cow chances are the heifers won't. My thought has always been that unless I had cows that were too large of a frame size then I should purchase a bull with at least a frame score .5-1 higher than the cows. Which in my case would be a 5.5-6. I like the muscling and everything else. Like I said I've looked at several yearling to two year olds along with 14-16 herd bulls and have only seen a couple I liked maybe a little better and maybe two I would say is equal. Many of these have cost lots of money and been at the top of some of the current hot polled breeder's sales. So I can safely say the majority of the polled cattle in this area aren't equal to these two bulls. Hopefully with the money being spent to upgrade their herds some better cattle will start showing up. I do have two herds to go look at that used to be straight horned and are now a combination. I know the horned cattle from both have been good for years and so expect the same from their polled cattle. If I was seeing polled cattle of the quality of these bulls priced at commercial prices I would have already purchased a polled bull. But I'm not going to pay 8,000 thousand or more just to have a polled bull when I can buy a comparable angus or Horned bull for a lot less.

Thanks for your comments, elkwc. I also would like it to be taller but I had to made a trade-off. I think that for our grazing conditions frame 5-5.5 is good an the above bull is around frame 4.
Wish you find what you are looking for.

 

[elkwc]

Carlos there is several frame 4 cows in the herd I'm helping manage. They milk good and raise a good calf. They mature a little smaller and finish in the lot a little lighter than the current feedlot standards. So want enound frame to add a little and enough muscle so we don't lose any we have. Most are moderate muscled. And I would say 70% of the cows are 5's with a few 5.5's. I really don't want any cows over a 5.5. Prefer them all 5's if that was possible. I can say I would propably do a trade off like you if I had a chance at a bull of the caliber of yours. And just run him with 20-25 of the larger frame cows.

 

[RoanDurham]

Here in my part of the country the knock on polled Hereford bulls years ago (and I mean like 40 years ago) was that "When they bred the horns off they bred the a** off too." I don't think that's true any longer, but a lot of people still believe it and wouldn't have a polled bull for that reason.

I used a polled bull on some of my Brangus cow for the last five or six years and was very happy with the calves. He wore out and I went back to the same place Saturday and bought another bull. This one has horns, but that's not why I bought him. I thought he was the best bull they had for the price.

That should be the gold standard right there-