Hereford question

[smnherf]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

I would be very interested in which polled bulls you have used. I find it peculiar that since you are trying to raise grass only cattle that you would use a Denver champion bull raised by an operation that caters heavily to the show cattle industry. Its not even close to your management style.

Actually, surprisingly, Optimum was one of the few A.I. bulls that really worked in my operation as well as my neighbours, both along the lines of rough management. We both ended up with herd bulls off of him, which are still fondly remembered and have many daughters in both herds. Easy fleshing and good hair were two things he contributed to both operations. Mind you, I didn't get keen on Optimum until he was over 7 years of age. I will try and make a tally of the Polled bulls I used A.I. Mind you I don't remember full pedigreed names, it's been years. Some Canadian bulls, so you won't probably recognize them all.

Optimum
Kilmorlie Deliverance
GK Tradewind
Louada Voyageur
Ascendent
Sheridan
Chivas
Justamere Bob
BT Future Grazer
TA-BAR Royale
GK Sportsman
GK Sport
BFL Modern Beau
RWJ Victor
Icepick
WTK Weld
Haroldson Outwest
Boyd Limited
YY Venture 705G
Sunburst Roundup
Kilmorlie Baron
Nichols Max
RHF IGT Victor 103T
CRNL Whirlwind

I may have missed some. But I think I got most. All have good points, but none, other than Optimum, transmitted and thick, burly hair coat. Oh, and one bull I remember that I sold off of the Nichols Max bull...he was ok. But the majority of the calves off these bulls were not woolly come winter...they were slick or long-haired with little undercoat. The first Horned bull I used A.I. was JNHR President 226E. Now there was a bull that put hair on his calves. :cowboy:

I know of quite a few of these bulls. Never used any though. Optimum was the first polled bull that got me interested in polled genetics. He was a type change for that time. Up until then there were too many big birthweight, large framed, hard doing, slick haired polled cattle around. But the horned cattle had their problems too. After a lot of study and looking around, I found the Mackintosh 117D bull and he filled my needs very well.

 

[JHH]

[

I have a few polled animals to. I can tell you that the bull customer where I live would rather have polled, but they keep looking at that one that was dehorned and saying wish he wasnt horned. These are guys that most generally buy their replacements and have 99.9% angus cows. They dont understand that there will be no horns on the first cross. Its the next cross where I would get into trouble.

I visited yesterady with a customer who runs about 800 black cows. About all of them are bought cows. He buys horned from a large breeder and mostly polled bulls from me. He said they paste all the horns in the spring at birth and then dehorn in the fall at weaning. He said this year they did 23 head in the fall. I was surprised that they had that many horns. Interesting too that he said that they havent noticed any difference in the calf vigor between horned and polled and he couldn't see any difference in the bulls and how they covered cows.

Brian

I never said there was a noticable difference in calf vigor or the way they covered cows?

I am also suprised that the paste didnt work. But you have all kinds of variables there to.

But I bet he has noticed improved WW hasn't he?

 

[Cowdirt]

Hmmmmm??????????

How many and how many different cattle have you raised and how long have you been in the business?

srbeef, Jim, dang you can't win can you. First two of the gals chastise you for being too modest and still claiming to be a novice; now limited experience with cattle is insinuated. Just keep doing what your're doing; you have some fine looking cattle.

 

[SRBeef]

...srbeef, Jim, dang you can't win can you. First two of the gals chastise you for being too modest and still claiming to be a novice; now limited experience with cattle is insinuated. Just keep doing what your're doing; you have some fine looking cattle.

As at home with the wife, sometimes the best plea is "guilty on all counts".

I am still a cattle novice regardless of what the line in the upper right says. I am an engineer by trade. There can be certain advantages to being a newcomer, if you keep your eyes, ears and mind open. I am just relating here what I have seen so far: I don't see any difference in wintering ability in my cattle related to coat. I also happen to like the ones that shine up quickly in the spring and really keep themselves and their calves clean.

I am still learning. As the song says about women, "she's never wrong, she just changes her mind". I'm open to changing my mind.

That's what makes it fun to get up in the morning - always something new to learn today.

CD, thank you for the kind words.

Jim

 

[smnherf]

[

I visited yesterady with a customer who runs about 800 black cows. About all of them are bought cows. He buys horned from a large breeder and mostly polled bulls from me. He said they paste all the horns in the spring at birth and then dehorn in the fall at weaning. He said this year they did 23 head in the fall. I was surprised that they had that many horns. Interesting too that he said that they havent noticed any difference in the calf vigor between horned and polled and he couldn't see any difference in the bulls and how they covered cows.

Brian

I never said there was a noticable difference in calf vigor or the way they covered cows?

I am also suprised that the paste didnt work. But you have all kinds of variables there to.

But I bet he has noticed improved WW hasn't he?

I never meant to accuse you of saying that there were differences in calf vigor and how they cover cows. I was addressing previous posts.

Its not that the paste didn't work. It seems that when crossing polled and horned cattle often times when the calves are born, horn either isn't easy to find and doens't show up until later in the fall. I have noticed that too on my cows. Calves I swear are polled at birth need to have horns cut off at weaning.

His weaning weights are very good. He weans probably as big of calves as anyone around here. He has been using Hereford bulls on black cows for probably over 10 years now. Hired man of another first time customer stopped in yesterday. He runs red angus cows and has been using Charolais bulls on them. He used 4 Hereford bulls, all polled too, and he told me when they sold the steers that the rwf steers outweighed the Char X steers by 50 lbs. Hired man wants to put a Hereford bull on his cows now too.

Brian

 

[Beef Man]

I am new to this forum and this disscusion,but have lived all my life with Hereford cattle. I strongley beleive that the real true horned hereford is superior to polled cattle. many polled hereford breeders were smaller breeders and many were and still are moneyed hobby farmers,that were only in the biz to show. The show ring is just that, a great place to look and visit,but a very poor way to improve and build a breed. This said the polled cattlehave come a long waysince the 2 associations have merged.Not that many years ago the polled cattle were known as "no butt,no balls, no milk and horrible sheath's. Another 25 years and a bunch of dedicated breeders will have these problem's licked. I really hate to see the AHA controlled by polled breeders but do realize that there are probabley more polled breeders with more resources and more time to give. Always remember that they broke their own APHA some time ago,but do beleive there is a lot of polled people that are practical and dedicated now. To sum it all up the horned cattle werebred and raised by many ranchers to make their liveing and they could'nt have done that without raiseing cattle that not only were practical but also profitable.

 

[Aaron]

I am new to this forum and this disscusion,but have lived all my life with Hereford cattle. I strongley beleive that the real true horned hereford is superior to polled cattle. many polled hereford breeders were smaller breeders and many were and still are moneyed hobby farmers,that were only in the biz to show. The show ring is just that, a great place to look and visit,but a very poor way to improve and build a breed. This said the polled cattlehave come a long waysince the 2 associations have merged.Not that many years ago the polled cattle were known as "no butt,no balls, no milk and horrible sheath's. Another 25 years and a bunch of dedicated breeders will have these problem's licked. I really hate to see the AHA controlled by polled breeders but do realize that there are probabley more polled breeders with more resources and more time to give. Always remember that they broke their own APHA some time ago,but do beleive there is a lot of polled people that are practical and dedicated now. To sum it all up the horned cattle werebred and raised by many ranchers to make their liveing and they could'nt have done that without raiseing cattle that not only were practical but also profitable.

Welcome to the board. Agree with you completely. But beware, there are a bunch on here that will take offense to what you said. Pay no heed to them and continue posting. :cowboy:

 

[KNERSIE]

Everyone thinks their fart smells the sweetest. :roll:

 

[novatech]

The show ring is just that, a great place to look and visit,but a very poor way to improve and build a breed. quote]

You would be hard pressed to find decent bulls of any breed, polled or not, that did not have show stock in their pedigree. My advice to you would be to talk to some judges and find out why they select for the traits they select for. Polled vs horned is no different than show vs no show.
If it were not for the show ring there would be nothing but a bunch of barn blind farmers trading ignorant knowledge with more ignorant knowledge. That pretty well describes your statement. It is based on ignorance.
We are all ignorant to some degree in a lot of things. That is OK. Stupid is the unwillness to learn.

 

[JHH]

The show ring is just that, a great place to look and visit,but a very poor way to improve and build a breed. quote]

Polled vs horned is no different than show vs no show.

This makes alot of sense to me. There are good ones in both. The truth is if you want to sell bulls (around here) They about have to be polled. I have gotten calls recently and have also geared up to sell some polled bulls around here ( 2 years from now it is a goal ) .

But it is getting harder to find a good polled bull without horns in the pedigree because of the merge I suspect. (hereford)

 

[Aaron]

If it were not for the show ring there would be nothing but a bunch of barn blind farmers trading ignorant knowledge with more ignorant knowledge. That pretty well describes your statement. It is based on ignorance.

Boy you don't give anyone an ounce of credit for experience do you? 'Without the show ring, y'all be a bunch of morons.!" Because of course, the show ring is where the REAL money is made and selling cattle to a packer or order buyer with critical points (that have nothing to do with the showring), is just a game we play. :lol: :lol: :lol: :cowboy:

Real smooth. :roll:

 

[novatech]

If it were not for the show ring there would be nothing but a bunch of barn blind farmers trading ignorant knowledge with more ignorant knowledge. That pretty well describes your statement. It is based on ignorance.

Boy you don't give anyone an ounce of credit for experience do you? 'Without the show ring, y'all be a bunch of morons.!" Because of course, the show ring is where the REAL money is made and selling cattle to a packer or order buyer with critical points (that have nothing to do with the showring), is just a game we play. :lol: :lol: :lol: :cowboy:

Real smooth. :roll:

Just don't believe in cutting down people because they show or don't show. I do not show but go to shows to learn. Don't have to. I could just go out and tell people my cows are great and expect them to believe it.
Now just to let you know my attitude about this is relatively new. I was brought up in the commercial cattle business. I had no use for show people or their livestock. When I got into F1's I wanted to know what people wanted. I started to go to shows. Well I thought I new a lot but found out I really didn't know squat. I found out there are very good reasons why traits are important. I'm still learning and hope I never quit until they throw dirt on me. The older I get the more I realize how important knowledge is and how little I really know. Experience is important but doing something wrong for a hundred years does not make it right. If you want to listen to a lot of experience well here is some. We used to treat pink eye by squirting kerosene in their eye. There are probably a hundred other things I could bring up where experience doesn't work. Listen to what everyone has to say, then research it for yourself.

 

[Beef Man]

I'm sorry that I steped on some of your toes or hurt your feelings but still believe that the show ring and what happens there is a poor way to build a breed. It is quite often a feeding--fiting contest. It does have a place as it is agood place to visit and take some time off from the work at home and not feel to guilty about that because we are attending a business related event. As for me being stipid that is just your opinion and doe'snt bother me a bit.I helped show cattle in Denver55 years ago and attended that show many times in the past as well as many years at Mt. Winter Fair and Missoula Top cut. Does'nt make me a expert but do remember some great show men and there influence on the hereford breed. I saw and learned so much out behind the barns or in the nurse cow areas that wer'nt only wrong they were downright dishonest and realized that if I was going to be a breeder and look at myself in the mirror every morning and teach my kids right from wrong that it wouldnt be as a show ring producer. That said many of the most successful people in many of the breeds never put a halter on a bull to sell him. As to polled versus horned in this area it is very hard to market polled steers and we have been severe'ly critisized for throwing in a few polled steers on aload of horned feeder steers. Also as we handle quite a lot of breeding herefords, we have alot of commercial buyers that will not take a polled heifer. Been in this biz. 60 years and been herefords on this placesince 1910. So i am not new to the breed. We do at this time have some polled cattle and figure that they are about 5-6 generations behind the horned herd. They have and are makeing improvement and someday long after I'm gone will perhaps measure up. There is not at this time or has ther ever been a commercial ranch here that was all polled hereford. The main reason for polled herefords here is to use on the many black cows that make up east mt.'s cow herd and "yes" most know that horned bull on pure angus cow is polled calf but a great amount of the black cattle are just that. only black. One other thing the polled bull-- FHR Gentic Giant was bred and born here and went to Frank Felton and he being strait horned blood was very typically polled bull as i stated before. Once again I'm sorry to offend you and do see a place for the polled breed but it will be awhile before they can take their place as an equal to the horned cattle.

 

[Aaron]

If it were not for the show ring there would be nothing but a bunch of barn blind farmers trading ignorant knowledge with more ignorant knowledge. That pretty well describes your statement. It is based on ignorance.

Boy you don't give anyone an ounce of credit for experience do you? 'Without the show ring, y'all be a bunch of morons.!" Because of course, the show ring is where the REAL money is made and selling cattle to a packer or order buyer with critical points (that have nothing to do with the showring), is just a game we play. :lol: :lol: :lol: :cowboy:

Real smooth. :roll:

Just don't believe in cutting down people because they show or don't show. I do not show but go to shows to learn. Don't have to. I could just go out and tell people my cows are great and expect them to believe it.
Now just to let you know my attitude about this is relatively new. I was brought up in the commercial cattle business. I had no use for show people or their livestock. When I got into F1's I wanted to know what people wanted. I started to go to shows. Well I thought I new a lot but found out I really didn't know squat. I found out there are very good reasons why traits are important. I'm still learning and hope I never quit until they throw dirt on me. The older I get the more I realize how important knowledge is and how little I really know. Experience is important but doing something wrong for a hundred years does not make it right. If you want to listen to a lot of experience well here is some. We used to treat pink eye by squirting kerosene in their eye. There are probably a hundred other things I could bring up where experience doesn't work. Listen to what everyone has to say, then research it for yourself.

There is your first mistake. Shows are fun-time. Go and relax and do a lot of BS'ing. But don't think your going to learn what you need to raise a herd of efficient F1 cows for sale to fellow commercial buyers from the inside of show ring feed tub.

Experience is the fallback when innovation and insight fail you. I don't recommend to rely on experience itself, but your own insight into your cowherd's needs genetically, will take you further than a random fat show-ring 2 year old bull will. :cowboy:

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm sorry that I steped on some of your toes or hurt your feelings but still believe that the show ring and what happens there is a poor way to build a breed. It is quite often a feeding--fiting contest. It does have a place as it is agood place to visit and take some time off from the work at home and not feel to guilty about that because we are attending a business related event. As for me being stipid that is just your opinion and doe'snt bother me a bit.I helped show cattle in Denver55 years ago and attended that show many times in the past as well as many years at Mt. Winter Fair and Missoula Top cut. Does'nt make me a expert but do remember some great show men and there influence on the hereford breed. I saw and learned so much out behind the barns or in the nurse cow areas that wer'nt only wrong they were downright dishonest and realized that if I was going to be a breeder and look at myself in the mirror every morning and teach my kids right from wrong that it wouldnt be as a show ring producer. That said many of the most successful people in many of the breeds never put a halter on a bull to sell him. As to polled versus horned in this area it is very hard to market polled steers and we have been severe'ly critisized for throwing in a few polled steers on aload of horned feeder steers. Also as we handle quite a lot of breeding herefords, we have alot of commercial buyers that will not take a polled heifer. Been in this biz. 60 years and been herefords on this placesince 1910. So i am not new to the breed. We do at this time have some polled cattle and figure that they are about 5-6 generations behind the horned herd. They have and are makeing improvement and someday long after I'm gone will perhaps measure up. There is not at this time or has ther ever been a commercial ranch here that was all polled hereford. The main reason for polled herefords here is to use on the many black cows that make up east mt.'s cow herd and "yes" most know that horned bull on pure angus cow is polled calf but a great amount of the black cattle are just that. only black. One other thing the polled bull-- FHR Gentic Giant was bred and born here and went to Frank Felton and he being strait horned blood was very typically polled bull as i stated before. Once again I'm sorry to offend you and do see a place for the polled breed but it will be awhile before they can take their place as an equal to the horned cattle.

Gosh, someone who has been messing with Herefords longer than my 50 year involvement (coming up this year)! You sound a lot like some of the "old-timers" I know down here in Texas that have been around the horned Herefords longer than I have. The common statement has always been: "No horns = no brains and no butt!" Times and cattle may change, but the old prejudices still endure!

With the exception of the Hereford cattle of Line 1 breeders, some "maverick breeders" like Jim Lents, and a few other old "diehards" on both sides, the genepool of the horned and polled Herefords has become so comingled that I don't think there's any significant difference any more. Generally, they're all too heterozygous to be very consistent.

The show ring has changed a bit in the last few years and some of the cattle that are featured there, both horned and polled, are indeed useful in everyday breeding operations. The challenge is in figuring out which ones they are!

Welcome to CT!

George

 

[novatech]

I'm sorry that I steped on some of your toes or hurt your feelings but still believe that the show ring and what happens there is a poor way to build a breed. It is quite often a feeding--fiting contest. It does have a place as it is agood place to visit and take some time off from the work at home and not feel to guilty about that because we are attending a business related event. As for me being stipid that is just your opinion and doe'snt bother me a bit.I helped show cattle in Denver55 years ago and attended that show many times in the past as well as many years at Mt. Winter Fair and Missoula Top cut. Does'nt make me a expert but do remember some great show men and there influence on the hereford breed. I saw and learned so much out behind the barns or in the nurse cow areas that wer'nt only wrong they were downright dishonest and realized that if I was going to be a breeder and look at myself in the mirror every morning and teach my kids right from wrong that it wouldnt be as a show ring producer. That said many of the most successful people in many of the breeds never put a halter on a bull to sell him. As to polled versus horned in this area it is very hard to market polled steers and we have been severe'ly critisized for throwing in a few polled steers on aload of horned feeder steers. Also as we handle quite a lot of breeding herefords, we have alot of commercial buyers that will not take a polled heifer. Been in this biz. 60 years and been herefords on this placesince 1910. So i am not new to the breed. We do at this time have some polled cattle and figure that they are about 5-6 generations behind the horned herd. They have and are makeing improvement and someday long after I'm gone will perhaps measure up. There is not at this time or has ther ever been a commercial ranch here that was all polled hereford. The main reason for polled herefords here is to use on the many black cows that make up east mt.'s cow herd and "yes" most know that horned bull on pure angus cow is polled calf but a great amount of the black cattle are just that. only black. One other thing the polled bull-- FHR Gentic Giant was bred and born here and went to Frank Felton and he being strait horned blood was very typically polled bull as i stated before. Once again I'm sorry to offend you and do see a place for the polled breed but it will be awhile before they can take their place as an equal to the horned cattle.

I never said you were stupid. I will fully agree their is a lot wrong with the show circuit. Way to much politics for one and the primary reason I do not show. Although it is a way of being recognized by others for your cattle wither you win or not. This is one reason many show their cattle knowing they have no chance against the big boys.
There are a lot of young people out there that have learned about what makes a good beef animal from the shows. Of course they put the fat on, no different than a women wearing make up. I have no doubt that you may have learned a bit yourself. So you don't like some dishonest people within the show circuit. Does this mean there is nothing to gain. He!! I think CAB is dishonest but that doesn't keep me from liking Angus or using their bulls. That does not keep me from admiring some of the thing the Angus assoc. does.
If I wanted to go around and dislike people that had some faults I don't think I would like anyone. I prefer to find the good and learn.
A lot of people use nothing but show winners for breeding, I do. The reason is that I do not have to worry about conformation.
As far as honesty and your kids are concerned, I have met just as many dishonest people off the show circuit as on.
Your poled cattle are 5-6 generations behind your horned? What is the reason for this? There are other genetics you could have choosen from. Sounds like you started with lesser quality yet still want to make a judgement on the entire population of poles because of it. You made the choice, why blame the animals you chose?

 

[alacattleman]

I'm sorry that I steped on some of your toes or hurt your feelings but still believe that the show ring and what happens there is a poor way to build a breed. It is quite often a feeding--fiting contest. It does have a place as it is agood place to visit and take some time off from the work at home and not feel to guilty about that because we are attending a business related event. As for me being stipid that is just your opinion and doe'snt bother me a bit.I helped show cattle in Denver55 years ago and attended that show many times in the past as well as many years at Mt. Winter Fair and Missoula Top cut. Does'nt make me a expert but do remember some great show men and there influence on the hereford breed. I saw and learned so much out behind the barns or in the nurse cow areas that wer'nt only wrong they were downright dishonest and realized that if I was going to be a breeder and look at myself in the mirror every morning and teach my kids right from wrong that it wouldnt be as a show ring producer. That said many of the most successful people in many of the breeds never put a halter on a bull to sell him. As to polled versus horned in this area it is very hard to market polled steers and we have been severe'ly critisized for throwing in a few polled steers on aload of horned feeder steers. Also as we handle quite a lot of breeding herefords, we have alot of commercial buyers that will not take a polled heifer. Been in this biz. 60 years and been herefords on this placesince 1910. So i am not new to the breed. We do at this time have some polled cattle and figure that they are about 5-6 generations behind the horned herd. They have and are makeing improvement and someday long after I'm gone will perhaps measure up. There is not at this time or has ther ever been a commercial ranch here that was all polled hereford. The main reason for polled herefords here is to use on the many black cows that make up east mt.'s cow herd and "yes" most know that horned bull on pure angus cow is polled calf but a great amount of the black cattle are just that. only black. One other thing the polled bull-- FHR Gentic Giant was bred and born here and went to Frank Felton and he being strait horned blood was very typically polled bull as i stated before. Once again I'm sorry to offend you and do see a place for the polled breed but it will be awhile before they can take their place as an equal to the horned cattle.

I never said you were stupid. I will fully agree their is a lot wrong with the show circuit. Way to much politics for one and the primary reason I do not show. Although it is a way of being recognized by others for your cattle wither you win or not. This is one reason many show their cattle knowing they have no chance against the big boys.
There are a lot of young people out there that have learned about what makes a good beef animal from the shows. Of course they put the fat on, no different than a women wearing make up. I have no doubt that you may have learned a bit yourself. So you don't like some dishonest people within the show circuit. Does this mean there is nothing to gain. He!! I think CAB is dishonest but that doesn't keep me from liking Angus or using their bulls. That does not keep me from admiring some of the thing the Angus assoc. does.
If I wanted to go around and dislike people that had some faults I don't think I would like anyone. I prefer to find the good and learn.
A lot of people use nothing but show winners for breeding, I do. The reason is that I do not have to worry about conformation.
As far as honesty and your kids are concerned, I have met just as many dishonest people off the show circuit as on.
Your poled cattle are 5-6 generations behind your horned? What is the reason for this? There are other genetics you could have choosen from. Sounds like you started with lesser quality yet still want to make a judgement on the entire population of poles because of it. You made the choice, why blame the animals you chose?

yeah what,,,, even when i used horn bulls 20+ years ago they werent that far behind

 

[Beef Man]

I really feel that our polls are as good as most other breeders. In the last 10 years have lowered birthweights,length'ed and bred some thickness in the quarters,increased their milk, moderated their mature size, think we have eliminated prolapse[at least I certainly hope so] and just generally turning into cow's that live on and produce the way any comm. rancher run's his cattle here.By the way tthese polled cattle originated from a leading show outfit. Our main herdsire does come from one of the most respected hereford herds in the U.S. yet they are one that has never used a show halter or a show bull in their operation. Nuff said on this subject,we all have to raise cattle that fit's our environment andthose that we feel pays our bills best. Here ,we have always lived on the cowherd and cannot afford to make any mistakes. One other thing and I promise I'm done with this subject, "If hereford breeders do not mind their business and pay attention to things that are true'ly important the breed will become just another hobby breed". In other words if we stub our toes on some silly fad we're done. If we would all get on the ball and do away with a few titan's some red holsteins and a little bit of other genetic problems. we could maybe be the last truely pure breed. I DO AT THIS TIME CHALLENGE ALL REG. HEREFORD BREEDERS TO SELL FOR SLAUGHTER ALL KNOWN OR SUSPECTED HEREFORDS THAT MAY CARRY ANY GENETIC PROBLEMS.

 

[Herefords.US]

If we would all get on the ball and do away with a few titan's some red holsteins and a little bit of other genetic problems. we could maybe be the last truely pure breed. I DO AT THIS TIME CHALLENGE ALL REG. HEREFORD BREEDERS TO SELL FOR SLAUGHTER ALL KNOWN OR SUSPECTED HEREFORDS THAT MAY CARRY ANY GENETIC PROBLEMS.

The Titan reference is obvious. Care to expand on the Red Holstein reference and what Hereford cattle are suspect?

George

 

[KNERSIE]

What Beef Man seems to forget is that the world is an awfully big place, a lot bigger than Montana even. What may be true in Mt isn't neccesarily the case elsewhere, hence my comment on the first page of this thread that the only real difference nowadays between all herefords is different selection criteria. The quality of the breeders also play a huge role, if you have a mostly a few useless poll breeders in your area I can understand your point in your area, still doesn't mean its universally applicable.

Where I live poll cattle is at the very least equal to their horned counterparts. I do agree that polls have certain problems horned don't typically have, the vice versa also apply, doesn't mean you can't have cattle from either segment without the traditional flaws.

Like I've said so many times before I am happy if a hereford bull sells instead of an angus, makes no difference to me whether that bull is horned, poll or scurred.

What gets my goat isn't the oldtimers who's been at it for ever and who truly have an outstanding herd of horned cattle. I can understand why they want to (need to?) protect their market and why they feel like they do, but what really piszes me off is the young nobodies who has done sweet all for the breed who owns cattle and sell bulls (and posts photos of them) a serious breeder can only see as culls and then aloofly claims horned genetics are superior to all poll genetics.