Hereford question

[angie1]

pssst.....it goes on the horn button

duh.

 

[alftn]

So HORNED vs POLLED is just a choice nowdays, since their gentic are so close????

What a person likes or thinks is the best...."All old crows , think their baby is the Blackest"

 

[Doug Thorson]

That is not what their DNA will tell you. The differences between horned and poll herefords is purely selection differences and nothing more.

DNA the grizzly bear and the Alaskan Great Brown Bear and scietists will tell you the same thing, but hunters, guides and locals will tell you there is a big difference.

Frequent burned udders and burned calf faces for starters

I have to take exception to that line. I have pasted hundreds of hereford calves and never had a face or udder burned. It may happen if you use a teaspoon to put it on, but if you shave the hair in a nickel sized circle around the button, put the paste on with a popcicle stick and then push the hair back over it you NEVER have any problems.

 

[BIZIN]

As a cattle buyer, feedlot operator, and rancher I would have to say that horned herefords are better. If your breeding a bunch of black cows to a polled bull or a horned bull, you wont see much of a difference, but when your finishing a polled hereford animal and a horned hereford animal, it seems the horned animals always do better. When it comes to breeding the horned cattle spread out and get cows covered, we dont just find this with out horned herefords, but with our horned simmies and welsh blacks. We have found from experience that a group of polled bulls will follow the same cow around all day and fight over who is gonna finish the job. We have even ran dehorned bulls and they still cover more cows. After 45 days we mix our herds together and 90% of the calves that come at the end are hereford. We run our cows on stockpiled grass and swath grazing, they dont see a tractor during the winter and we find the horned cattle are much easier doing than the polled cattle.

 

[Aaron]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

 

[alacattleman]

dam!! yall make it sound like when they bred the horns off,, it left a shell of a animal,

 

[KNERSIE]

dam!! yall make it sound like when they bred the horns off,, it left a shell of a animal,

Its a case of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.

 

[alacattleman]

dam!! yall make it sound like when they bred the horns off,, it left a shell of a animal,

Its a case of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.

reckon and i was almost believin' em

 

[KNERSIE]

dam!! yall make it sound like when they bred the horns off,, it left a shell of a animal,

Its a case of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.

reckon and i was almost believin' em

:secret:

 

[Doug Thorson]

Its a case of if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.

Yep, that is how the polled got a toehold. That and make dehornig seem like a huge problem. 8)

 

[smnherf]

On the subject of the original post, Horned and Polled herefords are no more alike than Red Angus and Shorthorn or Gelbveigh and Simmental or Char and Limo.

That is not what their DNA will tell you. The differences between horned and poll herefords is purely selection differences and nothing more.

DNA the grizzly bear and the Alaskan Great Brown Bear and scietists will tell you the same thing, but hunters, guides and locals will tell you there is a big difference.

I will take a bet with anyone that the Polled and Horned Herefords are a lot more related than the Brown and Grizzly bear or a Simmental and Gelveih. Slight DNA differences can make huge huge differences in appearances. They say that homo sapiens share 98% of their DNA with a monkey too, but look at the differences. But we dont need DNA to settle this. Just check your pedigrees. Make a list of the horned bulls that don't trace back to Prince Domino and then make a list of Polled Herefords that don't trace to Prince Domino. Make a list of them and report back on a new thread.

But in reality, it doesn't really matter what I think or what you think, it comes down to what the commercial cattleman and beef industry think. I have a pretty good idea where their thoughts are too.

 

[smnherf]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

I would be very interested in which polled bulls you have used. I find it peculiar that since you are trying to raise grass only cattle that you would use a Denver champion bull raised by an operation that caters heavily to the show cattle industry. Its not even close to your management style.

 

[SRBeef]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

I would be very interested in which polled bulls you have used. I find it peculiar that since you are trying to raise grass only cattle that you would use a Denver champion bull raised by an operation that caters heavily to the show cattle industry. Its not even close to your management style.

Smnherf, wouldn't a show operation tend to favor stock with heavier hair coats since they use the hair for trimming?

What I would ask is why is the hair coat so important? I actually prefer Herefords that shine up faster in the spring. I'm selling beef not shag rug hides.

I have a polled bull and some of my best cows don't have extreme hair coats or high backfat numbers.

Yet they outwinter as well or better than my shaggy coated ones in some cold (-30 F last Jan) Wisconsin weather. I don't understand it but it seems to me that outwintering ability is not related to the amount of coat.

Having said that, I do have to admit that the one horned steer I have and mentioned above does have significantly heavier coat than his polled brothers. But I sure would not use this as a selection criteria from what I see and know so far.

Jim

 

[giftedcowboy]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

I would be very interested in which polled bulls you have used. I find it peculiar that since you are trying to raise grass only cattle that you would use a Denver champion bull raised by an operation that caters heavily to the show cattle industry. Its not even close to your management style.

Smnherf, wouldn't a show operation tend to favor stock with heavier hair coats since they use the hair for trimming?

What I would ask is why is the hair coat so important? I actually prefer Herefords that shine up faster in the spring.

I have a polled bull and some of my best cows that don't have extreme hair coats or high backfat numbers. They outwinter as well or better than my shaggy coated ones in some cold (-30 F last Jan) Wisconsin weather.

I don't understand it but it seems to me that outwintering ability is not related to the amount of coat.

Jim

Hmmmmm??????????

How many and how many different cattle have you raised and how long have you been in the business?

 

[dun]

I don't understand it but it seems to me that outwintering ability is not related to the amount of coat.

Of course not, it's all related to horns!

 

[SRBeef]

Hmmmmm??????????

How many and how many different cattle have you raised and how long have you been in the business?

Not as many or as long as you I am sure.

How about the question: why be concerned about the coat? Or are you assuming that a shaggy coat Hereford winters better?

I bought my bull from Jerry Huth who's operation is not far from Green Bay WI except it doesn't get the warming of the lake effect. If you look to nature, there are many different animals living in cold weather climates that are not particularly shaggy....

Jim

edit: thinking about this a bit more - yes the hair coat does trap insulating air. And even my "shinier" cattle do put on much more hair in the winter but it might be a finer hair and more dense than the longer and shaggier coats like my one horned calf. In the end maybe they both have about the same insulating ability?

 

[JHH]

[

Jim dont take this the wrong way. Take away that standing corn and feed just hay and see which ones without the heavy coat look like come spring.

I have a few polled animals to. I can tell you that the bull customer where I live would rather have polled, but they keep looking at that one that was dehorned and saying wish he wasnt horned. These are guys that most generally buy their replacements and have 99.9% angus cows. They dont understand that there will be no horns on the first cross. Its the next cross where I would get into trouble.

 

[giftedcowboy]

[

I have had slick haired cattle in a few different breeds. Fed many in the feedlot. I wont have a slick or wire haired cow on the place now. My feedlot buyer had better get a discount of $4-5 for any calves in the group that are slick or wire haired. I prefer cattle with a good coat of hair. I might have a different opinion if I lived in South Texas etc. I live in country where it gets cold and the damn wind tends to blow too much.

 

[Aaron]

One thing I will say about the Horned Herefords as well, is winter haircoat. Polled Herefords can't even come close. I used a lot of Polled A.I. bulls and the only one the would put a reasonable haircoat on them was MSU Optimum Z03. Even then, it still wasn't the same as a Horned Herf's coat. :cowboy:

I would be very interested in which polled bulls you have used. I find it peculiar that since you are trying to raise grass only cattle that you would use a Denver champion bull raised by an operation that caters heavily to the show cattle industry. Its not even close to your management style.

Actually, surprisingly, Optimum was one of the few A.I. bulls that really worked in my operation as well as my neighbours, both along the lines of rough management. We both ended up with herd bulls off of him, which are still fondly remembered and have many daughters in both herds. Easy fleshing and good hair were two things he contributed to both operations. Mind you, I didn't get keen on Optimum until he was over 7 years of age. I will try and make a tally of the Polled bulls I used A.I. Mind you I don't remember full pedigreed names, it's been years. Some Canadian bulls, so you won't probably recognize them all.

Optimum
Kilmorlie Deliverance
GK Tradewind
Louada Voyageur
Ascendent
Sheridan
Chivas
Justamere Bob
BT Future Grazer
TA-BAR Royale
GK Sportsman
GK Sport
BFL Modern Beau
RWJ Victor
Icepick
WTK Weld
Haroldson Outwest
Boyd Limited
YY Venture 705G
Sunburst Roundup
Kilmorlie Baron
Nichols Max
RHF IGT Victor 103T
CRNL Whirlwind

I may have missed some. But I think I got most. All have good points, but none, other than Optimum, transmitted and thick, burly hair coat. Oh, and one bull I remember that I sold off of the Nichols Max bull...he was ok. But the majority of the calves off these bulls were not woolly come winter...they were slick or long-haired with little undercoat. The first Horned bull I used A.I. was JNHR President 226E. Now there was a bull that put hair on his calves. :cowboy:

 

[smnherf]

[

I have a few polled animals to. I can tell you that the bull customer where I live would rather have polled, but they keep looking at that one that was dehorned and saying wish he wasnt horned. These are guys that most generally buy their replacements and have 99.9% angus cows. They dont understand that there will be no horns on the first cross. Its the next cross where I would get into trouble.

I visited yesterady with a customer who runs about 800 black cows. About all of them are bought cows. He buys horned from a large breeder and mostly polled bulls from me. He said they paste all the horns in the spring at birth and then dehorn in the fall at weaning. He said this year they did 23 head in the fall. I was surprised that they had that many horns. Interesting too that he said that they havent noticed any difference in the calf vigor between horned and polled and he couldn't see any difference in the bulls and how they covered cows.

Brian