Hair Sheep running behind the cattle?

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City Guy":175br9uf said:
I have read extensively about hair sheep, especially Katahdins. St. Croix are beautiful, but I have heard the size criticized many times. Most Katahdin producers I have read about or talked to praise their easy keeping and low maintenance. They can lamb out of season making 3 crops in two years a reality. Many producers I am familiar with get 200% crops regularly.

Some considerations as I understand.
Tighter fences
Guard against lambs drowning in water tanks.
Protect against predators.
Too much copper in mineral mix-- need to keep cattle minerals and sheep minerals separate which hinders mixed grazing.
RM90 suggested running sheep ahead of cattle. I'd like to hear his rationale for that scheme. I just always thought that cattle should go first to knock down the tall grass and expose the short plants and weeds for the sheep--but I have no experience to back that up.
From all I have read and learned cows and sheep are a made in heaven duo--lots to gain and little to lose.
I like a katahdin ewe and the f1 dorper cross lambs sure are growthy. The reasoning behind the sheep ahead of the cows is that the sheep prefer the smaller green tender grass (much like stocker cattle) and the cows handle the big rank grass better with their larger rumens. Giving pastures a break from sheep helps with the parasites. Just what works in my operation, results may vary.
 
Right now we are running our Katahdins behind the cattle, but will eventually have them all running together as a "flerd" (flock/herd). This will be our third flock of hair sheep. We sold out the first time when the drought was on hard, and then another time when we wanted to focus on just cattle, but found that we really miss the sheep, so we bought a third flock early this year.

We normally put the sheep right in with the cows, but this time we've added a Pyrenees dog to the sheep to help with predator control. The cattle will help keep some coyotes away, but they really don't care that much if the coyote is grabbing a baby lamb for a scooby snack, as long as it's not their calf. We ran a Jenny donkey the second time around, and that reduced the predation some, but not totally. With the dog, we haven't had any predator loss.

We move our cows every day or two and keep the sheep in the previous paddock. This gives a fence to separate them, but lets the dog be close to the cows to get accustomed to them. We've got three wire high tensile electric fence between the paddocks, and use three wire or tape gates between paddocks. We'll probably blend the sheep in with the cows in another month or two once they are fully ignoring each other. Once you get them all together, it makes management very easy.

For us, the Katahdins are a low maintenance addition to cattle with very good income. When we run them together, they bond very well with the cows and keep the pastures in better condition by eating more of the weeds. They get the same minerals as the cows from the same round three compartment feeder, and drink from the same tire tanks. One compartment of the mineral feeder has loose Redmond trace mineral salt, one has Redmond mineral salt mixed 50/50 with Redmond conditioner, and the third compartment has Fertrell's graziers choice (no copper).

For our first flock, we just bought 20 cull bred ewes at the sale barn and then bought a nice purebred ram to put with them, and then turned them out with the cows. We had about six or seven ewes die the first month and then they took off and multiplied from there. We never pulled the ram, and don't wean any lambs. We leave the whole flock together year round, selling the rams when they are 90 to 120 pounds, and leaving the females in unless they don't breed. You'll be surprised at how quickly they multiply. No special care makes for a tough, surviving flock. There will be some that occasionally die, but it's really very few. They are very hardy.

Our second flock was put together from a couple different folks that were selling out. The flock we have now was bought the same way, from some folks that were selling out. We really like the Katahdins. We're located in SW Missouri, north of Joplin, and they do great here.

May 2015 - Sheep and cows on lush May grass


February 2016 - Fed the sheep hay right along with the cows.


March 2015 - Jenny and the sheep on hay with the cows
 
RanchMan90, Why would you run sheep AHEAD of cattle? (I'm trying to think as I type) I think that running cattle first would knock down the tall grass to make it easier for sheep to get to the short stuff. But maybe you are concerned that the trampling by the cattle would destroy the grass for the sheep? (In a mob grazing scheme) Why not run them together, except during lambing?
 
Been hearing rumblings of brainworm problems in cattle run behind sheep, not directly after, but fields that used to have sheep in them. Seems to be a new problem thats popping up. I know locally the moose have problems with it, getting it from the deer. Causes paralysis and eventually death if not figured out soon enough.

Its possible its direct deer to cattle transmission as well, but the case I heard of had the sheep in the mix also. Of which, sheep, goats, llamas etc.. are more susceptible to it, as they graze closer to the ground, and likely closer to a deer then a cow does.
 
Jacob":24402esg said:
We are looking at the possibility of running hair sheep behind the cattle. I have been doing a ton of research trying to decide if this is a path we want to go down. does any other cattle producer on here run hair sheep? I am looking at all the breeds. I like the Dorper but understand the twining rate is not high which is a issue for me. From my research I'm leaning towards the Royal White. which is a cross between the dorper and St croix.

What breed or cross breed would you suggest and why?
Do you run the sheep with the cows? Before the cows or After the cows?
Have you notice improved pasture health by running sheep?
Do you find the ratio of one cow per one ewe is about correct without adding additional pasture?
we have high tensile wire do you find this an issue?

Jacob we used to run about 40 Kahtadin/St. Croix crosses. Hair sheep are good for cleaning up a place before you run cattle. Thankfully around 2006-2007 the price went to about $400 per head and we sold out.

Hair sheep STINK! Get enough together in one spot and they will make it smell like a cesspool. Their small pellet turds don't break down like cow and horse dung.

We never had problems with the straight St. Croix. Check the feet good on anything you buy here the Gulf Coast.
 
SD,
To my knowledge, meningeal/brain worm (Parelaphostrongylus tenuis) is only spread by whitetail deer, which are it's natural host.
Sheep, goats, moose, elk, llamas, etc. can become infected - and develop 'brainworm' disease - but as far as I know it's not a 'patent' infection... meaning, they don't spread infective stages that could infect other animals.
I suspect that whomever is spreading the hair sheep/cattle/brainworm rumor either misunderstood what they heard or... is just full of it.

In areas where barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus) is a problem - like the Southeastern USA - 95% or more of small ruminant deaths are directly attributable to this one parasite. In general, we've not regarded Haemonchus to be a major problem for cattle, but I have been seeing some reports of haemonchosis problems in young/stocker cattle following behind sheep/goats.
 
City Guy":2zx3ug9g said:
RanchMan90, Why would you run sheep AHEAD of cattle? (I'm trying to think as I type) I think that running cattle first would knock down the tall grass to make it easier for sheep to get to the short stuff. But maybe you are concerned that the trampling by the cattle would destroy the grass for the sheep? (In a mob grazing scheme) Why not run them together, except during lambing?
I explained it in my previous 2 comments. I never said it was the only way, it's just what I do.
 
Lucky_P":1vldbkuf said:
SD,
To my knowledge, meningeal/brain worm (Parelaphostrongylus tenuis) is only spread by whitetail deer, which are it's natural host.
Sheep, goats, moose, elk, llamas, etc. can become infected - and develop 'brainworm' disease - but as far as I know it's not a 'patent' infection... meaning, they don't spread infective stages that could infect other animals.
I suspect that whomever is spreading the hair sheep/cattle/brainworm rumor either misunderstood what they heard or... is just full of it.

Yeah, Like I said its not likely direct sheep to cattle, just so happens its on properties that also have sheep, or that sheep have been getting it in the past. They sent a steer away early this week to be tested, it was still alive when sent - but as I understand it needs to be killed for any sort of testing? I should hear something back from that guy before long, as he doesnt live too far away. I understand it to be very rare in cattle, so I've had my doubts that was even it from the start.

Its happening to younger cattle, prob around 7 months? - going down in the hind end is what I've heard. He's had several vets out looking into it, so they are taking it seriously. Lost a couple already, and were treating others with injectible ivomec I believe for 5 days, as well as another drug. Im not sure of the specifics though.
 
I raised Katahdins for 10 years and like them a lot. I'd buy at least my rams from someone enrolled in a National Sheep Improvement Program flock, so has EPDs/EBVs, and that also selects for parasite resistance. They are likely also to be a breeder that selects for mothering ability. Call the Katahdin Hair Sheep International Office in Arkansas and ask Jim Morgan.
 

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