For the EPD Naysayers

[Caustic Burno]

Any old timers on here have a practical example of when they did not have epd's and now that they use them?

Did you pull calves lots more in the old days than you do now that you have BW Epd?

Do you have heavier Calves now that you use Epd's than you did years ago before them?

Do you think the art of picking good cattle might be getting lost in the fact buyers spend more time looking at the catalog of epd's than back in pens looking at the Animal?

Yes I can as just in reverse there has been about every breed you can think of on this place. There are two Braxton Giant Hereford breeders in this county. Since switching to this line five years ago for herd bulls I have pulled one calf . Used to pull calves regular that had all the right numbers on the bull side.
My calfs might get here small and not have as good of weaning weight as you but I am hauling them to the salebarn, check speaks for itself.

Caustic, Since most of BW is environmental and not heritable, you must have improved your management over the years too! ;-)

Same grass same hay same Horsesass running them the same way only thing that has changed here is the bull's.

 

[MikeC]

Same grass same hay same Horsesass running them the same way only thing that has changed here is the bull's.

Glad I know someone who can control the climate. ;-)

How'd the pearl millet do?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Same grass same hay same Horsesass running them the same way only thing that has changed here is the bull's.

Glad I know someone who can control the climate. ;-)

How'd the pearl millet do?

They eating it right now out of a roll.
The climate hasn't changed here hot in the spring, hotter in summer, hot in the fall and cool in the winter. Rains sometimes sometimes it doesn't same as it always has been.

 

[txag]

There are two Braxton Giant Hereford breeders in this county. Since switching to this line five years ago for herd bulls I have pulled one calf .

BG's bw epd is low, so you would "expect" the calves to be smaller. ;-)

 

[Caustic Burno]

There are two Braxton Giant Hereford breeders in this county. Since switching to this line five years ago for herd bulls I have pulled one calf .

BG's bw epd is low, so you would "expect" the calves to be smaller. ;-)

I know that there have been Lims Brammers Brangus Simms Herf's Maines with good BW epd's and so on here and none not one has proven to have the calving ease.

 

[la4angus]

Seems like there is more Value in A.I. Bulls epd's due to hundreds or thousands of data from difference sources. But a local Bull seller could really fudge his numbers on a bull sold to a commercial guy.

I don't know how many times it takes to have this posted on here for you and a few others, but the guy lieing about BW, WW or any other number that gets puts into the equation for the EPD number to be tabulated is like the guy peeing in the ocean. EPD's take into consideration all the relatives on both, the sires side and dams side of an animal that has been turned in.
So quit worrying about some yahoo lieing about how light this little 1200 lb. 205 day weaning calf was when he was born. Even though he only weighed (according to reported numbers) 37 lb. it aint gonna make no difference in his tabulation.

 

[aplusmnt]

Seems like there is more Value in A.I. Bulls epd's due to hundreds or thousands of data from difference sources. But a local Bull seller could really fudge his numbers on a bull sold to a commercial guy.

I don't know how many times it takes to have this posted on here for you and a few others, but the guy lieing about BW, WW or any other number that gets puts into the equation for the EPD number to be tabulated is like the guy peeing in the ocean. EPD's take into consideration all the relatives on both, the sires side and dams side of an animal that has been turned in.
So quit worrying about some yahoo lieing about how light this little 1200 lb. 205 day weaning calf was when he was born. Even though he only weighed (according to reported numbers) 37 lb. it aint gonna make no difference in his tabulation.

Very few things I worry about, especially Epd's. And as you stated one person changing a Birth weight is just a small drop in the bucket. But by the same token, hundreds or thousands of people fudging just a fraction either on purpose or by poor management would have a big affect on it.

I do wonder though if all input is figured equally in the calculation of epd's or does something such as the BW of that specific animal carry a greater part of the calculation?

Say a guy has an Angus Bull how much would the BW Epd change if he reported the Bulls Birth Weight at 65 lbs VS 95 lbs. Does the actual Birth weight of that specific bull play a greater part in figuring than all of the other data coming in?

 

[MikeC]

Very few things I worry about, especially Epd's. And as you stated one person changing a Birth weight is just a small drop in the bucket. But by the same token, hundreds or thousands of people fudging just a fraction either on purpose or by poor management would have a big affect on it.

I do wonder though if all input is figured equally in the calculation of epd's or does something such as the BW of that specific animal carry a greater part of the calculation?

Say a guy has an Angus Bull how much would the BW Epd change if he reported the Bulls Birth Weight at 65 lbs VS 95 lbs. Does the actual Birth weight of that specific bull play a greater part in figuring than all of the other data coming in?

The key to Calculating accurate EPD's is Comtemporary Grouping. If someone turns in a falsified extremely low BW on a bull calf, it makes the rest of the bulls in that contemporary group look bad by comparison. He gains no advantage overall.

Turning in a wrong number doesn't bother me at all. There is an error correction built into the model that throws out statistical errors. i.e. By knowing that weaning weight has a genetic correlation to birthweight and the rest of the calves in the contemporary group were the same weight or less at weaning, the possibility of that calf being so much lighter at birth is a statistical impossibility and throws it out of the calculations.

What bothers me most of all is a breeder just picking out his best calves to register and not including the entire group, which lowers accuracy and eliminates the ability of the best ones to shine.

Clear as mud?

 

[la4angus]

Say a guy has an Angus Bull how much would the BW Epd change if he reported the Bulls Birth Weight at 65 lbs VS 95 lbs. Does the actual Birth weight of that specific bull play a greater part in figuring than all of the other data coming in?

I think I just explained that to you. That one bull aint gonna make no difference

 

[DOC HARRIS]

There is an error correction built into the model that throws out statistical errors. i.e. By knowing that weaning weight has a genetic correlation to birthweight and the rest of the calves in the contemporary group were the same weight or less at weaning, the possibility of that calf being so much lighter at birth is a statistical impossibility and throws it out of the calculations.

This precludes the argument that if liars figure, the figures lie. This explains why Contemparary Grouping is necessary in providing accurate EPD's. The more animals in a group, the more accurate the ultimate EPD's will be. Nothing is perfect in this world, but as I have said before, let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. If we don't have SOMETHING to use as a tool or a key to open the door to better possible breeding practices, we will just continue to make the same guesses and the same mistakes year after year after year. Be skeptical - but not closed-minded!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Wewild]

Help me out.

I got to buy some replacement bulls.

Two red and two black and as ya'll know they are Lims.

Should I do EPD research or go back with the sellers my dad used before?

 

[dun]

Help me out.

I got to buy some replacement bulls.

Two red and two black and as ya'll know they are Lims.

Should I do EPD research or go back with the sellers my dad used before?

You can;t do both?

dun

 

[Wewild]

Help me out.

I got to buy some replacement bulls.

Two red and two black and as ya'll know they are Lims.

Should I do EPD research or go back with the sellers my dad used before?

You can;t do both?

dun

I have come to understand from my readings that their are few here that can.

My Dad bought the last ones.

I need some help.

He's 70 and tells everyone he's 66. He is " The Man" to me. He has made this my life without knowing what a EPD is.

Come see us. We raise Lim's.

 

[aplusmnt]

Very few things I worry about, especially Epd's. And as you stated one person changing a Birth weight is just a small drop in the bucket. But by the same token, hundreds or thousands of people fudging just a fraction either on purpose or by poor management would have a big affect on it.

I do wonder though if all input is figured equally in the calculation of epd's or does something such as the BW of that specific animal carry a greater part of the calculation?

Say a guy has an Angus Bull how much would the BW Epd change if he reported the Bulls Birth Weight at 65 lbs VS 95 lbs. Does the actual Birth weight of that specific bull play a greater part in figuring than all of the other data coming in?

The key to Calculating accurate EPD's is Comtemporary Grouping. If someone turns in a falsified extremely low BW on a bull calf, it makes the rest of the bulls in that contemporary group look bad by comparison. He gains no advantage overall.

Turning in a wrong number doesn't bother me at all. There is an error correction built into the model that throws out statistical errors. i.e. By knowing that weaning weight has a genetic correlation to birthweight and the rest of the calves in the contemporary group were the same weight or less at weaning, the possibility of that calf being so much lighter at birth is a statistical impossibility and throws it out of the calculations.

What bothers me most of all is a breeder just picking out his best calves to register and not including the entire group, which lowers accuracy and eliminates the ability of the best ones to shine.

Clear as mud?

Defiantly a little clearer thanks for the explanation!

 

[ronay0]

I been around cattle all my life, own cattle; But I do not consider myself a cattleman; I try to educate myself as much as possible.
So I was watching The Cattle Show on RFD, and this guy from "Leachman" Cattle Company?? from the way he was talking, it sound like HE or LEACHMAN INVENTED THE EPDs. This individual was stating the importance of EPDs AND THEY, LCCo., will or they have a new stat to add to the EDPs. The new stat is RETURN ON INVESTMENT. In the EDPs this new stat will be included on all EPDs. From what I understood is: the new ROI stat will tell a rancher how much a return the rancher will get using a particular will bull.
I do not fully understand EPDs, but if this ROI stat is included, I think one should FORGET about BW YW WW MA IMF LOL BRB BB MB CBC DVD VCR AND ETC. Why should a rancher look at BW YW WW MA IMF, ETC when hes after one thing $$$, right?
Im stating what I seen from the Cattle Show.
AND
Please tell me someone seen this part.

 

[MikeC]

Charolais has a Terminal Sire Profit Index.

You plug in all the numbers and it lets you know what bulls you need for your market.

http://www.charolaisusa.com/TM/tabID__3 ... lored.aspx

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Help me out.

I got to buy some replacement bulls.

Two red and two black and as ya'll know they are Lims.

Should I do EPD research or go back with the sellers my dad used before?

You can;t do both?

dun

I have come to understand from my readings that their are few here that can.

My Dad bought the last ones.

I need some help.

He's 70 and tells everyone he's 66. He is " The Man" to me. He has made this my life without knowing what a EPD is.

Come see us. We raise Lim's.

Wewild-

Your Dad may have made this your life, but YOU are the one who has to live YOUR life. Your Dad can't live it for you. I would suggest that you carefully check EPD's, analyse the other bulls and their EPD's, IF POSSIBLE, and then start to do some strong thinking - FOR YOURSELF. You may choose to do what you did last time - and you may not. But make it YOUR decision - not your Dad's!

DOC HARRIS

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I been around cattle all my life, own cattle; But I do not consider myself a cattleman; I try to educate myself as much as possible.
So I was watching The Cattle Show on RFD, and this guy from "Leachman" Cattle Company?? from the way he was talking, it sound like HE or LEACHMAN INVENTED THE EPDs. This individual was stating the importance of EPDs AND THEY, LCCo., will or they have a new stat to add to the EDPs. The new stat is RETURN ON INVESTMENT. In the EDPs this new stat will be included on all EPDs. From what I understood is: the new ROI stat will tell a rancher how much a return the rancher will get using a particular will bull.
I do not fully understand EPDs, but if this ROI stat is included, I think one should FORGET about BW YW WW MA IMF LOL BRB BB MB CBC DVD VCR AND ETC. Why should a rancher look at BW YW WW MA IMF, ETC when hes after one thing $$$, right?
Im stating what I seen from the Cattle Show.
AND
Please tell me someone seen this part.

ronayO - I did not see the Cattle Show you refer to, but I know Lee Leachman and his operation and I will tell you he is NOT suggesting that you throw all the EPD's in a sack and drown them!! You totally misunderstood the concept. Contact Leachman Cattle of Colorado and have them straighten you out. And I would suggest that you get in contact with http://www.angus.org/performance, use the information that they send you and learn what this EPD concept is all about. Ignorance of facts is no excuse for not being well informed. Choose to incorporate these improved breeding and mating practices in your operation - or not - but KNOW WHY you make the decisions.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Wewild]

Your Dad may have made this your life, but YOU are the one who has to live YOUR life. Your Dad can't live it for you. I would suggest that you carefully check EPD's, analyse the other bulls and their EPD's, IF POSSIBLE, and then start to do some strong thinking - FOR YOURSELF. You may choose to do what you did last time - and you may not. But make it YOUR decision - not your Dad's!

DOC HARRIS

Thanks. It will have to be my decision as he is incapable of making one in his condition.