For the EPD Naysayers

[MikeC]

An EPD is currently the best estimate of an animals genetic worth given the information available for the analysis. Numerous studies using research herds and field records have validated the merit of an EPD as a selection tool to make directional change in beef herds for the traits evaluated. Research has further shown that even for young animals, an EPD can be as much as 9 times more accurate than a with-in herd ratio or weight. However, there are many traits that impact the profitability of the beef enterprise, not all of those traits are reported here in this analysis. Furthermore, proper management practices must be matched to your genetics to realize the best opportunity for profitability.

 

[SEC]

you have repeated what we have been told for a long time.

The sky is blue! We have been told that for a long time too.

 

[SEC]

you have repeated what we have been told for a long time.

The sky is blue! We have been told that for a long time too.

 

[MikeC]

you have repeated what we have been told for a long time.

The sky is blue! We have been told that for a long time too.

Half of the time here the sky is not blue. At night it is black. :shock:

 

[handydandy]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

 

[MikeC]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

I guess you didn't read this part:

"However, there are many traits that impact the profitability of the beef enterprise, not all of those traits are reported here in this analysis."

There are many tools in the box. EPD's are just one.

 

[handydandy]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

I guess you didn't read this part:

"However, there are many traits that impact the profitability of the beef enterprise, not all of those traits are reported here in this analysis."

There are many tools in the box. EPD's are just one.

Nope I read it, EPDs are still the most overused and abused by even eople that supposedly understand them. EPD encourages outcrossing trying to get just the right mixture. but then consistency of genetics drops. There are a tremendous number of problems and pitfalls with using epds that they become worthless.

 

[Frankie]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

"greatest and best"? :roll: Serious cattlemen everywhere are using EPDs. Only a fool will leave that TOOL in the toolbox when making breeding decisions. And they don't stay in business by being foolish. When we started selling bulls at the test station fifteen or so years ago, the only EPD most producers were interested in was the BW EPD. Today they want them all. Probably the largest ranch in OK (commercial) wouldn't touch a bull that doesn't have ALL EPDs AND ultrasound data.

EPDs can help meat quality. Research tells us consumers prefer higher quality (marbled) beef. Most breeds have an IMF EPD that can help improve the quality grade of the beef you raise. On the other hand, if you have a market for lean beef, use bulls of your chosen breed with a low IMF EPD.

EPDs aren't magic; but they are an additional, helpful tool for the producer.

 

[handydandy]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

"greatest and best"? :roll: Serious cattlemen everywhere are using EPDs. Only a fool will leave that TOOL in the toolbox when making breeding decisions. And they don't stay in business by being foolish. When we started selling bulls at the test station fifteen or so years ago, the only EPD most producers were interested in was the BW EPD. Today they want them all. Probably the largest ranch in OK (commercial) wouldn't touch a bull that doesn't have ALL EPDs AND ultrasound data.

EPDs can help meat quality. Research tells us consumers prefer higher quality (marbled) beef. Most breeds have an IMF EPD that can help improve the quality grade of the beef you raise. On the other hand, if you have a market for lean beef, use bulls of your chosen breed with a low IMF EPD.

EPDs aren't magic; but they are an additional, helpful tool for the producer.

Sorry Frankie but most use them because they can't sell an animal without them because people BELIEVE that is the only way to see if you have a good animal.
Again, I'm talike quality meat and you are talking IMF. Go ahead and use the EPD But meat demand and quality has been going down as EPD use has gone up :roll:

 

[Frankie]

Sorry Frankie but most use them because they can't sell an animal without them because people BELIEVE that is the only way to see if you have a good animal.
Again, I'm talike quality meat and you are talking IMF. Go ahead and use the EPD But meat demand and quality has been going down as EPD use has gone up :roll:

You're blowing hot air here. You can't read everyone's mind. Yes, good EPDs help sell an animal; bad EPDs will hurt the sale and NO EPDs can cost the breeder big time. Buy stock from a breeder who uses EPDs as a TOOL.

IMF IS DIRECTLY related to meat quality. Beef consumption has been up for the last several years. I believe part of the increase is related to CAB. CAB offered people a choice between commodity and a higher quality beef. Once they understood there is a difference in beef, more people were willing to buy it. Today there are dozens of branded beef programs that offer consumers choices and they're taking advantage of them. Marbling (IMF) has a great influence on whether the consumer is happy with his beef eating experience. And the IMF EPD can help you select breeding stock to improve the marbling of your calves.

 

[MikeC]

I think the problem that most people have with EPD's is the accuracy part. For the first time in history we have a genetic predictor of birthweight. How cool is that?

Problem is, when a commercial bull buyer buys a virgin two year old bull, the EPD's are usually Interim, which lends itself to low accuracy.

We will be better off in the long run with EPD's and the sooner people realize that "the higher the better" is not necessarily so, the better off we will be.

The problem with EPD's is not in the calculations, but in the ignorance and use of them.

 

[la4angus]

The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

When buying a bull or bulls that is going to sire your calf crop, there is no one that says that you have use EPD's to help pick him or them. All bulls and cows have EPD's whether or not they are printed or not for any one to see. So if you don't believe in them, don't look at them.

Nope I read it, EPDs are still the most overused and abused by even eople that supposedly understand them. EPD encourages outcrossing trying to get just the right mixture. but then consistency of genetics drops. There are a tremendous number of problems and pitfalls with using epds that they become worthless.

Like I just said; don't use them or just don't even look at them. The animal has them whether you like it or not.

MikeC's above statements pretty well spells it out much better than I could.

 

[MikeC]

I think the problem that most people have with EPD's is the accuracy part. For the first time in history we have a genetic predictor of birthweight. How cool is that?

Problem is, when a commercial bull buyer buys a virgin two year old bull, the EPD's are usually Interim, which lends itself to low accuracy.

We will be better off in the long run with EPD's and the sooner people realize that "the higher the better" is not necessarily so, the better off we will be.

The problem with EPD's is not in the calculations, but in the ignorance and use of them.

there is a bigger problem with epds its called accuracy.

a lot of breeders are coming up with epds and dont even own a set of scales. lets also not forget all one has to do is look at politicians and see that the norm is to lie no matter who it hurts.

if one really wants to see true epds and you are concious of your investment then visit the farm, or ranch from where you intend on purchasing bulls or heifers from and i would recomend more than one visit.

epds are only as good as the one putting the info in and how it was obtained.

i have heard a calf born only gets 53 percent of its genetics from the bull. and at any given time old genetics can come forward.

i would rather see the genetics in the feild than on paper any day.. because it cant be masked to suit the expectations of numbers.

Yes. Some people don't turn in accurate weights when turning in data but those inaccurate numbers will come back to haunt them at some point in time.

Every purebred breeder will/should sell some animals to another purebred breeder at some point. When that new buyer starts turning in data the truth will come out.

You can't skew the numbers for very long before it catches up to you.

A balance of Phenotypic and Genetic decisions are always the best method to me.

 

[handydandy]

Sorry Frankie but most use them because they can't sell an animal without them because people BELIEVE that is the only way to see if you have a good animal.
Again, I'm talike quality meat and you are talking IMF. Go ahead and use the EPD But meat demand and quality has been going down as EPD use has gone up :roll:

You're blowing hot air here. You can't read everyone's mind. Yes, good EPDs help sell an animal; bad EPDs will hurt the sale and NO EPDs can cost the breeder big time. Buy stock from a breeder who uses EPDs as a TOOL.

IMF IS DIRECTLY related to meat quality. Beef consumption has been up for the last several years. I believe part of the increase is related to CAB. CAB offered people a choice between commodity and a higher quality beef. Once they understood there is a difference in beef, more people were willing to buy it. Today there are dozens of branded beef programs that offer consumers choices and they're taking advantage of them. Marbling (IMF) has a great influence on whether the consumer is happy with his beef eating experience. And the IMF EPD can help you select breeding stock to improve the marbling of your calves.

Nope not hot air on my part!!!
Quality grades are going down.

 

[Frankie]

Nope not hot air on my part!!!
Quality grades are going down.

Quality grades haven't changed in years. A Choice is still a Choice; a Standard is still a Standard.

http://meat.tamu.edu/beefgrading.html

 

[handydandy]

Frankie don't be silly, the percentage of cattle grading of high quality has been going down in recent years
Here is a quote from a magazine article that says what I was referring.---
The U.S. beef industry is producing less high quality beef than in the past. According to the most recent National Beef Quality Audit, about 6.2 percent fewer fed cattle qualify for the Choice quality grade than in 1975. The trend toward lower quality grades (less marbling) is the leading concern among food service and retail customers. That's reason enough for beef producers to be concerned as well
I copied this from another board that asked the question, 'what are we doing wrong?'
All I am saying is that EPDs don't make high quality cattle or meat. You can get all bent out of shape because I knocked your esteemed epd's, but I believe that history shows the widespread use of numbers has not improved the QUALITY of beef.
Have a great day

Nope not hot air on my part!!!
Quality grades are going down.

Quality grades haven't changed in years. A Choice is still a Choice; a Standard is still a Standard.

http://meat.tamu.edu/beefgrading.html

 

[Alan]

If all you want to do is raise commodity (crap) beef and have limited profitability then raise great epd cattle. The greatest and best cattlemen didn't and don't use epd's. If you think a calf with a 25 pound weaning weight is automatically better then use epd's. If you want a great animal that also tastes great, then it takes more than epds.

EPD's -- the most over hyped numbers the world has ever seen.

I"m, I believe, am one of many newbies on this board trying to learn. Could you be more specific about EPD's being over hyped. I have been raising cattle for about 5 years and just starting to get a good grasp on complete EPD's. Meaning not only BW, YW, MM but REA, and accuracy rates. So for people like me, I for one, would like to hear your opinion but in more specific detail.... what makes EPD's "over hyped"?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[Frankie]

Frankie don't be silly, the percentage of cattle grading of high quality has been going down in recent years
Here is a quote from a magazine article that says what I was referring.---
The U.S. beef industry is producing less high quality beef than in the past. According to the most recent National Beef Quality Audit, about 6.2 percent fewer fed cattle qualify for the Choice quality grade than in 1975. The trend toward lower quality grades (less marbling) is the leading concern among food service and retail customers. That's reason enough for beef producers to be concerned as well
I copied this from another board that asked the question, 'what are we doing wrong?'
All I am saying is that EPDs don't make high quality cattle or meat. You can get all bent out of shape because I knocked your esteemed epd's, but I believe that history shows the widespread use of numbers has not improved the QUALITY of beef.
Have a great day

I'm not being silly. You said what you said.

As LA said, don't use them if you don't want to. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think EPDs work or that people won't use them. When we bought our first Angus bull, we had to look hard to find one with EPDs. We bred him to about 15 crossbred heifers and every one of them calved unassisted. Today, it's unusual to see a bull sell without EPDs. And the buyers punish the producer for the lack of numbers.

There's more to quality of beef than genetics. You can take a Prime steer and mis-manage him down to Standard; but you can't take a Standard steer and manage him to Prime. EPDs are the best tool for improving marbling in your cattle, whether you like it or not. And many, many bull buyers are going to use them, whether you like it or not.

Here's an interesting article about the value of higher quality beef:

http://www.beefusa.org/NEWSBeefMarketRe ... 24194.aspx

 

[Brandonm2]

Here is a quote from a magazine article that says what I was referring.---
The U.S. beef industry is producing less high quality beef than in the past. According to the most recent National Beef Quality Audit, about 6.2 percent fewer fed cattle qualify for the Choice quality grade than in 1975. The trend toward lower quality grades (less marbling) is the leading concern among food service and retail customers. That's reason enough for beef producers to be concerned as well

The cattle herd is a lot different than it was in 1975. There were more British cattle back then and they were smaller stature cows in the commercial herd back then. Obviously (ON AVERAGE) a short, butter ball fat calf who weans off his short little mama at 400 lbs before going to a six month crop stubble and rye grass stocker program before the feedlot (where he is not implanted) is going to qulaity grade higher than a modern 620 lb implanted steer who goes straight to the feedlot EVEN if they are both straight Angus. I just don't see how you make money with those toadie little calves today given the dock for USDA small feeders due to their poor average daily gains and feed efficiency in the feedlot. NOW if I was a restauranteer looking for a Prime program feeding out old fashioned dinks a straight corn ration might be the way too go though even there I don't think the numbers pencil out given the amount of fat you are going to have to leave on the kill room floor. Marbling tends to suffer as cattle performance and frame both increases. IMF EPDs are just a numerical tool we use to try to identify the cattle that marble better than their peers.

 

[handydandy]

Frankie don't be silly, the percentage of cattle grading of high quality has been going down in recent years
Here is a quote from a magazine article that says what I was referring.---
The U.S. beef industry is producing less high quality beef than in the past. According to the most recent National Beef Quality Audit, about 6.2 percent fewer fed cattle qualify for the Choice quality grade than in 1975. The trend toward lower quality grades (less marbling) is the leading concern among food service and retail customers. That's reason enough for beef producers to be concerned as well
I copied this from another board that asked the question, 'what are we doing wrong?'
All I am saying is that EPDs don't make high quality cattle or meat. You can get all bent out of shape because I knocked your esteemed epd's, but I believe that history shows the widespread use of numbers has not improved the QUALITY of beef.
Have a great day

I'm not being silly. You said what you said.

As LA said, don't use them if you don't want to. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think EPDs work or that people won't use them. When we bought our first Angus bull, we had to look hard to find one with EPDs. We bred him to about 15 crossbred heifers and every one of them calved unassisted. Today, it's unusual to see a bull sell without EPDs. And the buyers punish the producer for the lack of numbers.

There's more to quality of beef than genetics. You can take a Prime steer and mis-manage him down to Standard; but you can't take a Standard steer and manage him to Prime. EPDs are the best tool for improving marbling in your cattle, whether you like it or not. And many, many bull buyers are going to use them, whether you like it or not.

Here's an interesting article about the value of higher quality beef:

http://www.beefusa.org/NEWSBeefMarketRe ... 24194.aspx

There is so much more to quality than fat inside the muscle. Its funny how I stated that epds are not the answer and you can't stand it.
People measure what is easy to measure and think (hope) that is a way to improve the herd.
Thanks for the article but prices going up does not itself indicate quality is up. the end of the article states as such.
have a wonderful day.