Feltons 517

[Chris H]

I will never say this to anyone else; BUT in THG's case, he might ought to give up visual evaluation and go back to breed by numbers.

I am trying to motivate him into doing something postive for the entire Hereford breed. He has the potential, possibly the cash, the knowledge, the experience, and many other things necessary to bred a star. He could actually be the next Frank Felton or Monte Soules or even a Lassiter. A lot of work comes with those names. The first thing I would do if I were him, would be to show us what is is really made of. If he hit the cover of a major magazine by buying Remitall's number one fall bull, I would certainly want some of that semen.

Try to motivate him not to lie.

Well I know for a fact that he did have some very fine animals registered in his name not too long ago. This is one that ended up in our county when he 'sold out' everything. He even goes back to 517 through M326.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C262222242425&9=5C525D
He also owned an interest in this fine cow for a while, http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5B2559202024&9=5C525B
thg can pick them, he just can't manage them, or his money.

 

[redfornow]

he just can't manage them, or his money.

Now thats the truth :cboy:

 

[LFF]

I will never say this to anyone else; BUT in THG's case, he might ought to give up visual evaluation and go back to breed by numbers.

I am trying to motivate him into doing something postive for the entire Hereford breed. He has the potential, possibly the cash, the knowledge, the experience, and many other things necessary to bred a star. He could actually be the next Frank Felton or Monte Soules or even a Lassiter. A lot of work comes with those names. The first thing I would do if I were him, would be to show us what is is really made of. If he hit the cover of a major magazine by buying Remitall's number one fall bull, I would certainly want some of that semen.

Try to motivate him not to lie.

Well I know for a fact that he did have some very fine animals registered in his name not too long ago. This is one that ended up in our county when he 'sold out' everything. He even goes back to 517 through M326.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C262222242425&9=5C525D
He also owned an interest in this fine cow for a while, http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C5B2559202024&9=5C525B
thg can pick them, he just can't manage them, or his money.

Chris , I fail to see what is great about the animals in question. They are nice looking and well fed however their carcass preformance is lacking. Birth weight is very high as is yearling weight , not what commercial people need from Herefords as a maternial cross-breed or even a maternial pure-bred operation. The bull is great for show or a terminal cross , however if you are looking to terminal sires you would be money ahead using a continetial breed. The cow is below average in the Profit indexes but is acceptable in all but carcass qualities.

 

[Herefords.US]

Chris , I fail to see what is great about the animals in question. They are nice looking and well fed however their carcass preformance is lacking. Birth weight is very high as is yearling weight , not what commercial people need from Herefords as a maternial cross-breed or even a maternial pure-bred operation. The bull is great for show or a terminal cross , however if you are looking to terminal sires you would be money ahead using a continetial breed. The cow is below average in the Profit indexes but is acceptable in all but carcass qualities.

Oh no, not ANOTHER "breed by numbers" breeder! And just when I thought HerefordSire was getting off the koolaid!

Carcass performance traits? :shock: :?:

LFF, the Red Oak bull is positive for both REA and IMF. He scanned above average in his own contemporary group for both traits. His only negative is CE/BW and his BW EPD doesn't reflect any calves sired by him, so it is just an average of his sire and dam, of very low accuracy, and it may not reflect how he will actually produce at all. His BW EPD as a proven bull could be much lower - or higher! His phenotype is way above the average. He's from a great breeder, by a bull that's proving to be a good producer of bulls and females, and he's out of a cow that has an enviable production record in a top-notch herd. His "greatness" is still unproven, as is any young bull without an extensive record of progeny, but his potential as a breed shaper is just about as good as any other young bull out there.

EPD "numbers" don't mean a lot - until you've got some progeny out of a bull that can back them up.

George

 

[LFF]

Chris , I fail to see what is great about the animals in question. They are nice looking and well fed however their carcass preformance is lacking. Birth weight is very high as is yearling weight , not what commercial people need from Herefords as a maternial cross-breed or even a maternial pure-bred operation. The bull is great for show or a terminal cross , however if you are looking to terminal sires you would be money ahead using a continetial breed. The cow is below average in the Profit indexes but is acceptable in all but carcass qualities.

Oh no, not ANOTHER "breed by numbers" breeder! And just when I thought HerefordSire was getting off the koolaid!

Carcass performance traits? :shock: :?:

LFF, the Red Oak bull is positive for both REA and IMF. He scanned above average in his own contemporary group for both traits. His only negative is CE/BW and his BW EPD doesn't reflect any calves sired by him, so it is just an average of his sire and dam, of very low accuracy, and it may not reflect how he will actually produce at all. His BW EPD as a proven bull could be much lower - or higher! His phenotype is way above the average. He's from a great breeder, by a bull that's proving to be a good producer of bulls and females, and he's out of a cow that has an enviable production record in a top-notch herd. His "greatness" is still unproven, as is any young bull without an extensive record of progeny, but his potential as a breed shaper is just about as good as any other young bull out there.

EPD "numbers" don't mean a lot - until you've got some progeny out of a bull that can back them up.

George

George, numbers?
Do some research and there is only 6 calves from the Keysa cow. Her actual birth weight on her calves are all higher than average and 4 calves had weaning weights and they were lower than their pen mates and only 1 yearling weight that was higher than average. All actual production not basing my judgement soley on numbers. You can have her , I'll pick some other one.

The bull is not proven however he has some 7.6 frame close up in his pedgree and I for don't want that much frame. It is not profitable on a grass based operation. He has no prodigy so no production yet to base any decisions on. The only parameters to base decisions on is the sires and dams in his pedgree and you can expect high birth weigth from his dam side as well as large frame and low marbling. His dam has a high yearling weigth reported on her calves and a large frame. My decisions are not based soley on Edp's and your's should not be based soley on phenotype and name recognition.

 

[redfornow]

Come on guys
You are jumpin on the fence both of you.
These animals have traits both pedigree, personal performance and epd that are traits anyone would want in their herd.
Just depends on were you are going.
They are good animals.
I own much worse and so do you two.
With that said, neither are going the direction I am.
So I wouldnt use em. I doubt either of you would either.
I also wouldnt kick either of em out of the pasture.
The bull COULD be a breed changer, he most likely isnt.
That doesnt put him down, its just life.

MD

 

[Herefords.US]

Chris , I fail to see what is great about the animals in question. They are nice looking and well fed however their carcass preformance is lacking. Birth weight is very high as is yearling weight , not what commercial people need from Herefords as a maternial cross-breed or even a maternial pure-bred operation. The bull is great for show or a terminal cross , however if you are looking to terminal sires you would be money ahead using a continetial breed. The cow is below average in the Profit indexes but is acceptable in all but carcass qualities.

Oh no, not ANOTHER "breed by numbers" breeder! And just when I thought HerefordSire was getting off the koolaid!

Carcass performance traits? :shock: :?:

LFF, the Red Oak bull is positive for both REA and IMF. He scanned above average in his own contemporary group for both traits. His only negative is CE/BW and his BW EPD doesn't reflect any calves sired by him, so it is just an average of his sire and dam, of very low accuracy, and it may not reflect how he will actually produce at all. His BW EPD as a proven bull could be much lower - or higher! His phenotype is way above the average. He's from a great breeder, by a bull that's proving to be a good producer of bulls and females, and he's out of a cow that has an enviable production record in a top-notch herd. His "greatness" is still unproven, as is any young bull without an extensive record of progeny, but his potential as a breed shaper is just about as good as any other young bull out there.

EPD "numbers" don't mean a lot - until you've got some progeny out of a bull that can back them up.

George

George, numbers?
Do some research and there is only 6 calves from the Keysa cow. Her actual birth weight on her calves are all higher than average and 4 calves had weaning weights and they were lower than their pen mates and only 1 yearling weight that was higher than average. All actual production not basing my judgement soley on numbers. You can have her , I'll pick some other one.

The bull is not proven however he has some 7.6 frame close up in his pedgree and I for don't want that much frame. It is not profitable on a grass based operation. He has no prodigy so no production yet to base any decisions on. The only parameters to base decisions on is the sires and dams in his pedgree and you can expect high birth weigth from his dam side as well as large frame and low marbling. His dam has a high yearling weigth reported on her calves and a large frame. My decisions are not based soley on Edp's and your's should not be based soley on phenotype and name recognition.

Notice that I said nothing concerning the Keysha cow. I would have to agree with you on her that there are others that I'd rather own....based on her maternal performance alone.

But I think you're being unfairly critical of the Red Oak bull when you started talking about his carcass and maternal performance...even if you look at his numbers. Like I said, he's a great looking bull with great numbers(except for that BW EPD that is above breed average) from a great producing cow from a great breeding program. I sure woudn't mind owning females sired by him in my "maternal herd" - if he produces near what his projected EPD numbers are and what his own performance record indicates that he will. He's a great prospect.

George

 

[Chris H]

Red Oak has 9 calves recorded by his owner. 8 of them are registered, 5 heifers, 3 bulls. I don't know any breeder who routinely spends the money to register a high percentage of bull calves when they're recorded. I haven't had a chance to ask the owners how they like the calves, but last fall they were certainly impressed with how Red Oak performed in pasture conditions.
Red Oak is an M326 son worth watching to see how he does in the future.

Keysha is a cow who was in high demand due to her breeding and phenotype. I am not familiar with any of her offspring. I did side track this post on 517 by throwing her in this discussion.

 

[LFF]

Red Oak has 9 calves recorded by his owner. 8 of them are registered, 5 heifers, 3 bulls. I don't know any breeder who routinely spends the money to register a high percentage of bull calves when they're recorded. I haven't had a chance to ask the owners how they like the calves, but last fall they were certainly impressed with how Red Oak performed in pasture conditions.
Red Oak is an M326 son worth watching to see how he does in the future.

Keysha is a cow who was in high demand due to her breeding and phenotype. I am not familiar with any of her offspring. I did side track this post on 517 by throwing her in this discussion.

You are correct about the number of prodigy, however no data is summited on any calves. The owner is in the TPR program, however I don't see any birth, weaning, or yearling weights. I would like to know the actual percents for the three figures before using him if I was inclined.

Sorry Herefordsire for getting off topic on your trend.

 

[THG]

Red Oak has 9 calves recorded by his owner. 8 of them are registered, 5 heifers, 3 bulls. I don't know any breeder who routinely spends the money to register a high percentage of bull calves when they're recorded. I haven't had a chance to ask the owners how they like the calves, but last fall they were certainly impressed with how Red Oak performed in pasture conditions.
Red Oak is an M326 son worth watching to see how he does in the future.

Keysha is a cow who was in high demand due to her breeding and phenotype. I am not familiar with any of her offspring. I did side track this post on 517 by throwing her in this discussion.

Chris, did you see Red Oak when I had him at the Ohio Beef Expo at the 2006 Spring Sale? Dr. Starr really liked him. Red Oak is a darn good bull that is worth trying out.

THG

 

[Chris H]

Chris, did you see Red Oak when I had him at the Ohio Beef Expo at the 2006 Spring Sale? Dr. Starr really liked him. Red Oak is a darn good bull that is worth trying out.

THG

No, I haven't seen him up close. I'm guessing it was him I've seen in Farno's pasture as I've driven by on occasion.

LFF -- I'm not positive but I thought the Hereford Ass'n only updated those performance pedigrees 2 times/year so Red Oaks progeny won't be reflected in his performance pedigree until the next time they do that.

 

[mtnman]

I cannot believe that at this late time in the years of dealing with Matt, that there are still suckers that think he actually has something to contribute to the beef industry.

Wise up some of you! Don't you understand that others are losing respect for you because you agree with Matt?

mtnman

 

[Herefords.US]

I cannot believe that at this late time in the years of dealing with Matt, that there are still suckers that think he actually has something to contribute to the beef industry.

Wise up some of you! Don't you understand that others are losing respect for you because you agree with Matt?

mtnman

Nobody's wrong 100% of the time! When Matt has been wrong, I've told him so. He screwed me over - big time - on getting a bull that may have helped my program. He REALLY screwed Kevin Schultz over on that bull - and others have been victims too. For that, I'm upset with him. But I'm not going to disagree with him here - JUST because he is Matt. Occasionally he's right!

One thing that I've noticed is that Matt has schooled himself better on Hereford breeding and history. I believe that he's learning from someone. Now, like MD said, if he could learn NOT to lie - and not post things on the board like he did concerning the Weimer bulls, he might be able to redeem himself eventually.

Personally, I don't think that will happen!

But I think most everyone knows the history here well enough that they can consider the source, look at the facts, and go on.

At this point, the only person Matt is hurting by participating on these boards is himself.

George

 

[THG]

I cannot believe that at this late time in the years of dealing with Matt, that there are still suckers that think he actually has something to contribute to the beef industry.

Wise up some of you! Don't you understand that others are losing respect for you because you agree with Matt?

mtnman

Nobody's wrong 100% of the time! When Matt has been wrong, I've told him so. He screwed me over - big time - on getting a bull that may have helped my program. He REALLY screwed Kevin Schultz over on that bull - and others have been victims too. For that, I'm upset with him. But I'm not going to disagree with him here - JUST because he is Matt. Occasionally he's right!

One thing that I've noticed is that Matt has schooled himself better on Hereford breeding and history. I believe that he's learning from someone. Now, like MD said, if he could learn NOT to lie - and not post things on the board like he did concerning the Weimer bulls, he might be able to redeem himself eventually.

Personally, I don't think that will happen!

But I think most everyone knows the history here well enough that they can consider the source, look at the facts, and go on.

At this point, the only person Matt is hurting by participating on these boards is himself.

George

I guess you don't like me posting on this board, but that isn't going to stop me from posting. Listen, I asked you ahead of time about the SHF Styles bull and you said that you weren't interested through a private message to me from you. So, now you are throwing it up in my face because you didn't get in on Styles? Only reason I didn't was because I was afraid of all the horn and scurs the calves may have had. Styles is out of Mr. T, and he was horned and then you have Remitall Keynote 20X and he was scurred. So, that was my only concern about the bull.

THG

 

[1848]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

 

[THG]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

He wasn't going to be used on anything, because on the number of horn and scurred genes he has in his genetics.

THG

 

[1848]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

He wasn't going to be used on anything, because on the number of horn and scurred genes he has in his genetics.

THG

Oh.......then why consider him?

 

[THG]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

He wasn't going to be used on anything, because on the number of horn and scurred genes he has in his genetics.

THG

Oh.......then why consider him?

1848. because his dam was such a great proven donor cow and also his sire Mr. T was a great cow maker.

THG

 

[Herefords.US]

I guess you don't like me posting on this board, but that isn't going to stop me from posting. Listen, I asked you ahead of time about the SHF Styles bull and you said that you weren't interested through a private message to me from you. So, now you are throwing it up in my face because you didn't get in on Styles? Only reason I didn't was because I was afraid of all the horn and scurs the calves may have had. Styles is out of Mr. T, and he was horned and then you have Remitall Keynote 20X and he was scurred. So, that was my only concern about the bull.

THG

Matt, you sure have selective memory. I never said I wasn't interested in the bull - I said I wasn't interested in being involved WITH YOU in partnership of the bull. So YOU told Kevin that you were buying him by yourself - and later you PM'ed me here that you had changed your mind. However, when I contacted Kevin about buying the bull myself, he said that he hadn't heard a word from you about changing your mind and he had been trying to contact you with no success.

Since you had purchased a bull from Kevin previously, he felt obligated to stand by your verbal commitment until he heard otherwise. Basically, by the time Kevin knew that you weren't taking the bull - or he gave up on trying to reach you and decided to offer him to others, I was out of town when the call came from Kevin. I got the message too late to bid on the bull!

Now, with this Weimer thread - it looks to be a pattern for you. Post here all you want, Matt, as far as I'm concerned. You've proven what a "screw-up" you are, so nobody takes you seriously anyway.

Occasionally, you DO get something right. And like a court jester, you offer comedic relief.

George

 

[THG]

I guess you don't like me posting on this board, but that isn't going to stop me from posting. Listen, I asked you ahead of time about the SHF Styles bull and you said that you weren't interested through a private message to me from you. So, now you are throwing it up in my face because you didn't get in on Styles? Only reason I didn't was because I was afraid of all the horn and scurs the calves may have had. Styles is out of Mr. T, and he was horned and then you have Remitall Keynote 20X and he was scurred. So, that was my only concern about the bull.

THG

Matt, you sure have selective memory. I never said I wasn't interested in the bull - I said I wasn't interested in being involved WITH YOU in partnership of the bull. So YOU told Kevin that you were buying him by yourself - and later you PM'ed me here that you had changed your mind. However, when I contacted Kevin about buying the bull myself, he said that he hadn't heard a word from you about changing your mind and he had been trying to contact you with no success.

Since you had purchased a bull from Kevin previously, he felt obligated to stand by your verbal commitment until he heard otherwise. Basically, by the time Kevin knew that you weren't taking the bull - or he gave up on trying to reach you and decided to offer him to others, I was out of town when the call came from Kevin. I got the message too late to bid on the bull!

Now, with this Weimer thread - it looks to be a pattern for you. Post here all you want, Matt, as far as I'm concerned. You've proven what a "screw-up" you are, so nobody takes you seriously anyway.

Occasionally, you DO get something right.

George

George, I am very sure that Kevin will have a bull this year that will out due that Styles bull. George, did you buy a bull from the Crittenden Bros. last year named GHC Volume III? Good bull, if you did, if not, still a good bull.

THG