Feltons 517

[Herefords.US]

George, I am very sure that Kevin will have a bull this year that will out due that Styles bull.

That could be true - but it sure doesn't alter the fact that you don't stand by your commitments, Matt.

George

 

[THG]

George, I am very sure that Kevin will have a bull this year that will out due that Styles bull.

That could be true - but it sure doesn't alter the fact that you don't stand by your commitments, Matt.

George

I sent you a PM. PM me back with what you think.

THG

 

[Herefords.US]

George, I am very sure that Kevin will have a bull this year that will out due that Styles bull.

That could be true - but it sure doesn't alter the fact that you don't stand by your commitments, Matt.

George

I sent you a PM. PM me back with what you think.

THG

Matt, you're funny!

Matt, do NOT send me any more PMs. I have nothing to say to you that can't be said right here. I CERTAINLY have no desire to become involved with you in any business or cattle venture! I don't expect that you'll find anyone who will - unless it's totally left to THEIR control and advantage and you can actually come up with some cash.

Send me any more PMs and I'll post them here for everyone to see what your "grand plans" are!

If the fiance' is real, again I offer HER my condolences.

Matt, two words:

Lithium carbonate!

George

 

[Herefords.US]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

1848, I just wanted to say it's good to see you posting. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and learning from them.

George

 

[1848]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

1848, I just wanted to say it's good to see you posting. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and learning from them.

George

:lol: :lol: That's funny......somebody learning from my posts.... :shock: Thanks ;-)

 

[THG]

George, I am very sure that Kevin will have a bull this year that will out due that Styles bull.

That could be true - but it sure doesn't alter the fact that you don't stand by your commitments, Matt.

George

I sent you a PM. PM me back with what you think.

THG

Matt, you're funny!

Matt, do NOT send me any more PMs. I have nothing to say to you that can't be said right here. I CERTAINLY have no desire to become involved with you in any business or cattle venture! I don't expect that you'll find anyone who will - unless it's totally left to THEIR control and advantage and you can actually come up with some cash.

Send me any more PMs and I'll post them here for everyone to see what your "grand plans" are!

If the fiance' is real, again I offer HER my condolences.

Matt, two words:

Lithium carbonate!

George

Fair enough, can't wait to show you my "Real Guns" this Fall and next Spring.

THG

 

[1848]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

He wasn't going to be used on anything, because on the number of horn and scurred genes he has in his genetics.

THG

Oh.......then why consider him?

1848. because his dam was such a great proven donor cow and also his sire Mr. T was a great cow maker.

THG

Ok...so if your research told you they were great animals.......then how come you didn't consider their "so called" undesireable genetic potential until after the fact?

Am I missing something here.....or did you just go fishing again.......you......you....you......hereford guy breeder kinda raiser type person.........c'mon...............be honest now...

 

[THG]

If I can interject here.........THG, was this style bull to be put on your Angus........your Flekviegh (however you spell it), or to be shipped to california to your "other" spread..... ...or were you just going to use him as a flush sire for all the eggs you want to collect?

He wasn't going to be used on anything, because on the number of horn and scurred genes he has in his genetics.

THG

Oh.......then why consider him?

1848. because his dam was such a great proven donor cow and also his sire Mr. T was a great cow maker.

THG

Ok...so if your research told you they were great animals.......then how come you didn't consider their "so called" undesireable genetic potential until after the fact?

Am I missing something here.....or did you just go fishing again.......you......you....you......hereford guy breeder kinda raiser type person.........c'mon...............be honest now...

Again, I didn't consider him because he had TO MUCH HORN BLOOD in him. That is why I chose not to buy the Style bull from Schultz. Again, his dam is gorgeous, top producer, great udder and milk flow and with the backing of Mr. T, how could anyone go wrong with that pedigree? I chose not to go that route because of 20X being scurred and Mr. T being horned. I don't know what else you want to know why I didn't purchase him.

THG

 

[Herefords.US]

Getting back to the Red Oak bull (instead of his former owner) - MD, you're correct in that I, personally, wouldn't use him. But, just because I wouldn't use him doesn't mean he's not a great prospect. "Prospect" being the operative word here. There's always a lot more great "prospects" out there than there are truly great proven breeding bulls.

And LFF, like you, I'd want to see some progeny data before I used him, especially on heifers.

Regarding Feltons 517, the subject of the thread and a great proven breeding bull, the "knock" that THG expressed on 517 is the SAME reservation that I've personally heard from several respected longtime breeders. I'm taking THEIR word on 517, not THG's. I've never seen 517 (and don't believe that THG did), but these breeders did and they have also seen the results of his breeding firsthand.

The 517 bull is said to be a good compliment to stout, muscled cows, which is his own weakness, if REA EPDs are to be believed.

Linebreeding 517 could be successful with careful selection, particularly guarding against setting in his own weaknesses, like lack of muscling. To be successful, I believe it would involve the use of ultrasound data and a person with a "breeder's eye" making the decisions. The result could be a herd of cattle that would add a lot of good traits to other breeder's herds.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

You just have to know cattle in a breed really really well (and I admit that I do not have that level of memorized information at hand) to get a handle on longevity. Most breeders SELL most of their cows while they still have productivity left in them to make way for newer genetics. It is rare for a breeder to have 10-20 daughters out of a bull and be able to ride them all till they are done. Most successful breeders sold off the cows from the 1992 heifer class 7, 8 or 9 years ago in their annual production sale. Those cows COULD still be out there registering calves on some other operator's place, be producing F-1 Tiger stripes, be producing baldies, or they could have broke down and become cutter beef 5 years ago. It is really hard to know for the most part. Some breeders like Gardiner's are even managing the donor herd that way. Nothing stays past six so that they are always marketing the freshest and most popular seedstock in the business. It is really hard to get a handle on longevity that way and by the time you have gleaned that information about a bull (good or bad) people have stopped using his genetics anyway.

Does the fertility EPD take into consideration longevity indirectly? Could longevity be AHA data mined by locating all males with over 500 calves? How about the females? I guess what I am getting at, how could we deduce the longevity of AHA animals based upon existing AHA data with large enough accuracy to make effective breeding decisions?

 

[THG]

Getting back to the Red Oak bull (instead of his former owner) - MD, you're correct in that I, personally, wouldn't use him. But, just because I wouldn't use him doesn't mean he's not a great prospect. "Prospect" being the operative word here. There's always a lot more great "prospects" out there than there are truly great proven breeding bulls.

And LFF, like you, I'd want to see some progeny data before I used him, especially on heifers.

Regarding Feltons 517, the subject of the thread and a great proven breeding bull, the "knock" that THG expressed on 517 is the SAME reservation that I've personally heard from several respected longtime breeders. I'm taking THEIR word on 517, not THG's. I've never seen 517 (and don't believe that THG did), but these breeders did and they have also seen the results of his breeding firsthand.

The 517 bull is said to be a good compliment to stout, muscled cows, which is his own weakness, if REA EPDs are to be believed.

Linebreeding 517 could be successful with careful selection, particularly guarding against setting in his own weaknesses, like lack of muscling. To be successful, I believe it would involve the use of ultrasound data and a person with a "breeder's eye" making the decisions. The result could be a herd of cattle that would add a lot of good traits to other breeder's herds.

George

George, I have seen the Felton Herd twice and the first time I was there was when 517 was still active and still breeding cattle. Also, I have seen 774, Meat Machine, Ozzie, Magnum, Mentor, Marshall, Lute, 727, Monarch, and a various number of other bulls at the Felton Hereford Ranch. I have also seen the Feltons E70, which she was the most impressive female at the Felton ranch, along with Feltons Kate J9 and Feltons G11 and Feltons G15. They were all great females and some of them still are. I think that the J9 cow is now dead, was owned by Milestone in IL.

THG

 

[HerefordSire]

If you are moving forward with your genetics and quality then why would you want to maintain such an old herd?

There could be several reasons, a few of which I will touch on.

Economical reasons: Let say I bred an ugly skinny Polled Hereford heifer calf with high SC and CE EPD numbers, like Felton 517. When she grew up, she threw 17 skinny and ugly cross bred females and zero attractive cross bred males. She didn't miss a lick. She minds her manners. When you open the chute, she walks in.


Marketing reasons: To be unique and offer a niche avenue to understanding creative breeding partners. Instead of competing with the "highest numbers" crew, you compete with breeders that advance a specific seed, such as Prospectors or Dominos, etc., that also satisfy the contemporary rancher.


There are many more I could list such as transportation, etc.

 

[Herefords.US]

George, I have seen the Felton Herd twice and the first time I was there was when 517 was still active and still breeding cattle. Also, I have seen 774, Meat Machine, Ozzie, Magnum, Mentor, Marshall, Lute, 727, Monarch, and a various number of other bulls at the Felton Hereford Ranch. I have also seen the Feltons E70, which she was the most impressive female at the Felton ranch, along with Feltons Kate J9 and Feltons G11 and Feltons G15. They were all great females and some of them still are. I think that the J9 cow is now dead, was owned by Milestone in IL.

THG

That's the trouble with lies, Matt. Once a person is proven to be a liar, even the truth that comes from them is suspect.

George

 

[THG]

George, I have seen the Felton Herd twice and the first time I was there was when 517 was still active and still breeding cattle. Also, I have seen 774, Meat Machine, Ozzie, Magnum, Mentor, Marshall, Lute, 727, Monarch, and a various number of other bulls at the Felton Hereford Ranch. I have also seen the Feltons E70, which she was the most impressive female at the Felton ranch, along with Feltons Kate J9 and Feltons G11 and Feltons G15. They were all great females and some of them still are. I think that the J9 cow is now dead, was owned by Milestone in IL.

THG

That's the trouble with lies, Matt. Once a person is proven to be a liar, even the truth that comes from them is suspect.

George

George, I am telling you the darn truth here, nothing else. So, believe whatever you want to believe, I know I have been there and I still have the dispersal catalog as well. So, you can believe me or not, I don't care, but I know that once again, I have seen 517, and all those other bulls and cows I listed.

THG

 

[KNERSIE]

I apologise for beating a dead horse, or is it a bull?

But I need to be educated....

Where exactly did 517 lack muscle?

Or could it be that he was a breed changer at the time, he was used on those tall racehorsey types that had no muscle, no easy doing ability and when bred to almost all other bulls would not produce well muscled progeny?

You can bet your bottom dollar that those who used 517 heavily backin the early 90's NEEDED the change. That in itself will tell you alot about the cows he was used on.

I don't say that 517 was the perfect bull, he lacked in other areas, but I don't see him lacking in muscle, atleast not in the two photos of him that I have seen recently. Had seen a video of him about 7 years ago, he impressed me very much back then and still does.

 

[Herefords.US]

Knersie, what I see in his photos is a smoother (flat) muscled bull carrying a good bit of condition. He doesn't have the explosive muscle pattern(definition?) that I prefer in those photos.

Besides the photos themselves, I'm relying on the word of breeders who saw the bull, as well as the REA EPDs.

Breeders who said the same thing that Brian(smnherf) did earlier in this thread.

George

 

[rocket2222]

Regarding Feltons 517, the subject of the thread and a great proven breeding bull, the "knock" that THG expressed on 517 is the SAME reservation that I've personally heard from several respected longtime breeders. I'm taking THEIR word on 517, not THG's. I've never seen 517 (and don't believe that THG did), but these breeders did and they have also seen the results of his breeding firsthand.

I glad it was the "respected longtime breeders" that said that, and not you George. Because thats some of the biggest bullcrap I've heard for a while. I guess those "respected longtime breeders" raise bulls that do it all on any cow, everytime. What made him a great bull was he fixed a bunch of cows/bulls at a time when they REALLY needed fixing, and did better, than any other bull, at that time. So today 15 years latter he may not be the do it all fixer that he once was, you have to be a little more selective. So What. You can't say that about 99% of the bulls out there breeding today, most of them don't fix anything no matter what cow there bred to.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Matt, the point is that you said you would buy the bull. Called the owner and said you would send him money, and you never let him know what your new intentions were. I think that is all anyone is saying, you should have looked at the genetics before jumping in and offering to buy the bull for what you did. I could care less what bulls you have seen or not. None of us know for sure what you have seen. All we know is that you said you had bought two bulls that never made it to your place. You have said that you were working on a ranch in montana, one time in california, and somewhere in Missouri. I hope you have success, but let us know after the fact; not before money changes hands. Good luck with the cattle.

On the 517 bull I agree that he throws a little smoother cattle, I personally only like specific animals out of the 517 line. I think he was a tool, but I am not sure that he should be the sole genetic base for a herd. He adds to IMF, and takes away REA. I believe that there is an inbetween that would suit people's needs.

 

[HerefordSire]

1848,

That isnt news heck if herefords didnt have epds,
I doubt HS would even take a look....


Why would a breeder select Feltons 517 other than his ability to create life through progeny without delivery assistance(SC & CE)?

Could it be his great reputation is related to feed efficiency which is not recorded? Why are so many ranchers and breeders using his offspring? Could it be to increase REA of terminal calves?

Hypothetically, it is 1994, I have ten 8 framed cows that average 100 pound calves at birth with high REAs for five years. So I cross 517 with all five. How much do these cows affect the statistical performance of 517? What about 500 daughters? If 517 had 500 daughters throwing a calf every year in the 1990s, how does this affect the statistical performance of 517?

 

[HerefordSire]

Longevity is a important trait

I was really talking about it from a bull/semen piont of view. A bull born in 1990 and being used today. Most of them are hot for a year or two, then there gone, usually when they find out thier calves ain't worth a hoot. Should not have used the word "trait". On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with a 10/12 year old cow, if she still as a good udder and has GOOD calves, Epd's may not be up like todays numbers are, but I can sell a "good" calf with middle of the road numbers [epd's] a whole lot easier than I can sell a middle of the road calf with good numbers. Seems like I read alittle while back they [aha] were working on a longevity epd.

I bolded your text above.

After researching Feltons 517's family tree, I located the following two ancestors:

Prospector 0716, born 1970, 36% inbred.
Prospector 7558, born 1967, 40% inbred.

These bulls showed up several times in 517's pedigree. I can do the same thing. Son outperformed father, father outperformed grandfather, grandfather outperformed great-grandfather, great grandfather outperformed great great grandfather, etc.

Gee, a kid can see that trend line by connecting the lower dots with the other low dots and the higher dots with the other high dots. This becomes the channel. I am gonna ride the channel. Guess which way the channel is pointing?